Giant Size X-men - Jean Grey and Emma Frost SPOILER thread

[Omega_DCD]

I don't buy that Jean is oh so affected by the mind link with the others...Jean even tells M the team link is no problem, but panics over the idea of maintaining the link to Earth by herself. Every one on the team is highly experienced, Jean has worked with them and dealt with heightened emotions.
Jean wasn't afraid to be in Moira's mind as she was dying...she wasn't even afraid to be in Mastermind's mind as he was dying from the legacy virus. Jean also stopped a shockwave rider from committing suicide by psychically sustaining his life force with her own, despite the risk if he should die while they're connected.

Did Jean panic when Magneto ripped out Wolverine's adamantium...the extreme pain he was in, everyone's worrying about him (and Xavier) , Jean holding him together telekinetically and suppressing his pain telepathically...their aircraft falling to pieces on the way home. No, she showed grit...resolve

Did she panic when Avalon was destroyed, learning Rusty Collins was killed, a young mutant she personally trained, and trying to rescue Skids and keep them safe?

Even asteroid M in NXM...as doomed as the situation was, Jean was still at least trying to cool things down by slowing down the molecules around them.

The issue is not Jean overcoming ever obstacle, but how she responds to those obstacles...and she doesn't need to be mansplained (or M-splained) the high stakes or to be told do whatever is necessary to complete the mission.

"Don't *#^@&! patronize me!" - A better written Jean Grey

[Del torro]

As kinda hard as Hickman came after Jean Grey, those that like the character should also remember that she's not necessarily worst off. Someone mentioned Angel in the Jean thread and Rogue has done virtually nothing of interest, so things could be worse for Jean.

Yeah, Warren really got the short end of the stick.

I think Jean will be fine, she may not be prominent, but she's still getting used and she's not wallpaper

[butterflykyss]

I don't buy that Jean is oh so affected by the mind link with the others...Jean even tells M the team link is no problem, but panics over the idea of maintaining the link to Earth by herself. Every one on the team is highly experienced, Jean has worked with them and dealt with heightened emotions.
Jean wasn't afraid to be in Moira's mind as she was dying...she wasn't even afraid to be in Mastermind's mind as he was dying from the legacy virus. Jean also stopped a shockwave rider from committing suicide by psychically sustaining his life force with her own, despite the risk if he should die while they're connected.

Did Jean panic when Magneto ripped out Wolverine's adamantium...the extreme pain he was in, everyone's worrying about him (and Xavier) , Jean holding him together telekinetically and suppressing his pain telepathically...their aircraft falling to pieces on the way home. No, she showed grit...resolve

Did she panic when Avalon was destroyed, learning Rusty Collins was killed, a young mutant she personally trained, and trying to rescue Skids and keep them safe?

Even asteroid M in NXM...as doomed as the situation was, Jean was still at least trying to cool things down by slowing down the molecules around them.

The issue is not Jean overcoming ever obstacle, but how she responds to those obstacles...and she doesn't need to be mansplained (or M-splained) the high stakes or to be told do whatever is necessary to complete the mission.

"Don't *#^@&! patronize me!" - A better written Jean Grey

1. Look at all the things she was doing.
-Transmitting play by play to earth what was happening to the xmen team fighting near the sun.(almost 90 million miles)
-While doing the above she is linking all the team members to each other.
-While doing all the above she is severely injured.

To me that's an incredible showing.

2. Isnt Jean supposed to be empathetic? Is it so far-fetched that she may be overcome with grief and sadness considering she is feeling all her teammates die? Not be torn apart as Logan was but actually murdered/killed.

3. See point 2. Her lovers and closest friends were killed and she felt it. Not to diminish what occurred with her student she trained but I would imagine the trauma she experienced on Orchis was arguably much worse.

4.Do you not think she was simply surprised and overwhelmed by the sentinel attack before she died?

[Omega_DCD]

1. I'm drawing attention to her canonical showings and that what Hickman has done isnt out of the realm of things we've seen from Jean.

2. It's all about perspective. I'm sure if threads like this existed at the time that issue came out some Jean's fans may have had issue with her characterization.

3. Then if that is the case then Jean didnt succumb as she came back to life. Also, I think you have to keep in mind Jean was surprised and overwhelmed by the sentinels. She didnt see it coming so it's a bit unfair to say she didnt hsve resolve.

4. When her mind, body and soul are not intact yes she can be harmed by her powers. The scan you initially showed demonstrates this. However, that wasnt Taylor's explanation as to how her powers worked. He mentioned she could kill herself with her powers and how he wrote that issue reinforced that. This was all from.his twitter page so yes I would agree his writing didnt show herself being hurt, he still was in the belief it should hsve.

5. Her powers revolve around her will power and concentration, so they are not mutually exclusive.

1) That is such a far gone era both in terms of the comic book medium itself and the character's development that it's just not relevant to the issues at hand. Are we referencing snowball tossing, Frosty the snowman era Bobby when discussing issues with his current characterization? The issue is how this adult Jean compared to the broad range of adult Jean's portrayal as a whole

3) Are you trying to say Orchis Jean didnt know about the Sentinels? Negative...Beast told her their are in a deceleration arc and will reach her soon. Jean knew.

4) J.K. Rowling-ing doesn't count...and maybe the moment isn't about Storm (gasp!), but Gentle, willing to do that despite the immense pain that kind of blow would have on him (before Jean works with him to remove the pain component)

5) Yes, but Jean has also responded to situations instinctively(protecting the team telekinetically from, wouldn't you know it? Another SURPRISE EXPLOSION, when Shadow King by way of Legion, detonated the top layers of the area of Muir Island where they were)..and in addition, has loads of battle honed experience and training to draw from

[butterflykyss]

1) That is such a far gone era both in terms of the comic book medium itself and the character's development that it's just not relevant to the issues at hand. Are we referencing snowball tossing, Frosty the snowman era Bobby when discussing issues with his current characterization? The issue is how this adult Jean compared to the broad range of adult Jean's portrayal as a whole

3) Are you trying to say Orchis Jean didnt know about the Sentinels? Negative...Beast told her their are in a deceleration arc and will reach her soon. Jean knew.

4) J.K. Rowling-ing doesn't count...and maybe the moment isn't about Storm (gasp!), but Gentle, willing to do that despite the immense pain that kind of blow would have on him (before Jean works with him to remove the pain component)

5) Yes, but Jean has also responded to situations instinctively(protecting the team telekinetically from, wouldn't you know it? Another SURPRISE EXPLOSION, when Shadow King by way of Legion, detonated the top layers of the area of Muir Island where they were)..and in addition, has loads of battle honed experience and training to draw from

1. thats true and fair. however, omit her teenage years there are still three other examples as an adult that I can think of where she didnt have the resolve you claim she has always exuded. I can think of another example, though it is a retcon but very still based upon the mind of jean, she was unable to resist the temptation of her dark side that ultimately brought forth dark Phoenix.

2. I'm sure she did not anticipate the sentinels attacking her pod because she had evacuated from the base. they didnt even know she was there technically that's why monet stayed behind. and right as scott died they attacked her. she wasnt mentally in a place to fight and I think that's fair as she is human.

3. in this instances it's about storm thinking a lightning bolt can kill her. despite how you doin it and how much you loved red it canonically wasnt right. but I'm sure this you wont admit as you loved how jean was characterized. that's ok I understand

4. when has she been in the same situation she was on orchis, where she was drifting in space after being nearly killed by an explosion, and experiencing the death of her close friends?

I think you are being unfairly hard on Hickman. He had her display an amazing thing considering the circumstances but maybe - and this may be really hard for you- but maybe this moment wasnt about Jean (gasp). Maybe it was about a bigger message Hickman was trying to convey which was about humans unending desire to do whatever they can to kill mutants and, sadly, everything relating to mutants always ends in death.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

People keep trying to argue that folks were mad Jean died instead of being mad that she went out like a wet blanket. Is the nuance that complex or is it just posting in bad faith? Lol

[Havok83]

1. thats true and fair. however, omit her teenage years there are still three other examples as an adult that I can think of where she didnt have the resolve you claim she has always exuded. I can think of another example, though it is a retcon but very still based upon the mind of jean, she was unable to resist the temptation of her dark side that ultimately brought forth dark Phoenix.

2. I'm sure she did not anticipate the sentinels attacking her pod because she had evacuated from the base. they didnt even know she was there technically that's why monet stayed behind. and right as scott died they attacked her. she wasnt mentally in a place to fight and I think that's fair as she is human.

That doesnt excuse her not even trying. She was going to die regardless bc thats what the story called for but Jean fans would have been satisfied if we saw her use her TK to blast one of the sentinels even if she was overwhelmed by the rest and slaughtered. That would have beat crying and doing nothing and basically giving up. That wouldnt have changed the story, but it would have changed how Jean was portrayed and assuaged most of those complaints

People keep trying to argue that folks were mad Jean died instead of being mad that she went out like a wet blanket. Is the nuance that complex or is it just posting in bad faith? Lol

Pretty much this

[butterflykyss]

People keep trying to argue that folks were mad Jean died instead of being mad that she went out like a wet blanket. Is the nuance that complex or is it just posting in bad faith? Lol

nah it's just differences of opinion. what did you expect her to do after she experienced the death of her husband/true love/lovers/friend. As soon as he died the sentinels attacked her pod. so again that whole issue was bigger than making jean look like a badass going out guns blazing (even though I thought Hickman showed her in a good light considering the circumstances). it was about death and mutants being a married concept.

That doesnt excuse her not even trying. She was going to die regardless bc thats what the story called for but Jean fans would have been satisfied if we saw her use her TK to blast one of the sentinels even if she was overwhelmed by the rest and slaughtered. That would have beat crying and doing nothing and basically giving up. That wouldnt have changed the story, but it would have changed how Jean was portrayed and assuaged most of those complaints



Pretty much this

jean was already on her last leg though from the explosion that's the part I think some jean fans are not considering. as you stated the point of this issue was around death and how with mutants, everything always leads to it. if communicating with her team while transferring all this info on her own millions of miles away after nearly dying and then still being able to withstand the psychic feedback when feeling the deaths of her teammates isnt something to see the strength in her character, nothing would have satisfied her fans. What I imagine would have made this moment work for some was it ending zipping through space back to earth after defeating the sentinels and pushing the station in the sun by herself. that is just the reality here (I've seen a couple of jean fans say this) but when she is already near death does any of that even make sense?

[Havok83]

nah it's just differences of opinion. what did you expect her to do after she experienced the death of her husband/true love/lovers/friend. As soon as he died the sentinels attacked her pod. so again that whole issue was bigger than making jean look like a badass going out guns blazing (even though I thought Hickman showed her in a good light considering the circumstances). it was about death and mutants being a married concept.



jean was already on her last leg though from the explosion that's the part I think some jean fans are not considering. as you stated the point of this issue was around death and how with mutants, everything always leads to it. if communicating with her team while transferring all this info on her own millions of miles away after nearly dying and then still being able to withstand the psychic feedback when feeling the deaths of her teammates isnt something to see the strength in her character, nothing would have satisfied her fans. What I imagine would have made this moment work for some was it ending zipping through space back to earth after defeating the sentinels and pushing the station in the sun by herself. that is just the reality here (I've seen a couple of jean fans say this) but when she is already near death does any of that even make sense?

Nope, its an excuse and not one that works for the type of character that Jean is. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one

[butterflykyss]

Nope, its an excuse and not one that works for the type of character that Jean is. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one

what's an excuse her being near death? bleeding from her injuries? withstanding the feedback from her teammates death? communicating by herself millions of miles away the events on orchis? find me an instance where she did more all at once and she came from it unscathed and I will concede but I dont think you can or will. so yes I do agree beloved to agree to disagree.

[franckd]

nah it's just differences of opinion. what did you expect her to do after she experienced the death of her husband/true love/lovers/friend.

I was not expecting her crying like that. I expected rage. Anger. Jean Grey has been facing the death of a friend when she was a kid. She even experienced it in her head. She witnessed the death of many fellows and ennemies, from Illyana to Jason Wyngard. She has been facing death herself many times. She never went foetal...

The fact that you refuse to see that is not better than Jean fans refusing to see that Storm was badly written in Red.

[Omega_DCD]

You're leaning way too hard into "her friends are dying Oh Em Gee!" This was an extremely high stakes mission and after the explosion, they all knew what it was going to take from there on out. Everyone else, with the exception of Mystique(stupid of her not assuming an Orchis worker form while skulking around) was in do or die mode. Nightcrawler and Wolverine got a very heroic last stand, as did Monet.

Jean is not a paper cup that just crumples under stress, physical or emotional. As she told Cassandra, empathy isn't weakness, it just means she has something bigger than herself to fight for...and that makes her dangerous. She would take just a moment to process their loss, then fight even harder to make their deaths matter.

Nothing is really going to be 100% analogous to that issue because death at that scale was a deliberate plot point...but I and others have mentioned plenty of similar stakes...but to me her greatest show of resolve was the Shuttle mission...Classic X-Men #8 goes into more detail...enduring extreme radiation poisoning and not faltering, hair falling out, skin falling off, blistering, bones sticking out, internal bleeding, going blind...the issue is tame due to the comics code, but google it and you'll see just how bad it is.

Geez...we're not saying Jean's indestructible. But almost 60 years of publication history shows much more often than not, if she's gonna go down, she's going down fighting with everything she has

[butterflykyss]

I was not expecting her crying like that. I expected rage. Anger. Jean Grey has been facing the death of a friend when she was a kid. She even experienced it in her head. She witnessed the death of many fellows and ennemies, from Illyana to Jason Wyngard. She has been facing death herself many times. She never went foetal...

The fact that you refuse to see that is not better than Jean fans refusing to see that Storm was badly written in Red.

jean isnt always a fighter who gives it her all until the very end when facing death. she is not rven injured or using her powers in the scan above. I think Hickman's jean deserves more credit.

You're leaning way too hard into "her friends are dying Oh Em Gee!" This was an extremely high stakes mission and after the explosion, they all knew what it was going to take from there on out. Everyone else, with the exception of Mystique(stupid of her not assuming an Orchis worker form while skulking around) was in do or die mode. Nightcrawler and Wolverine got a very heroic last stand, as did Monet.

Jean is not a paper cup that just crumples under stress, physical or emotional. As she told Cassandra, empathy isn't weakness, it just means she has something bigger than herself to fight for...and that makes her dangerous. She would take just a moment to process their loss, then fight even harder to make their deaths matter.

Nothing is really going to be 100% analogous to that issue because death at that scale was a deliberate plot point...but I and others have mentioned plenty of similar stakes...but to me her greatest show of resolve was the Shuttle mission...Classic X-Men #8 goes into more detail...enduring extreme radiation poisoning and not faltering, hair falling out, skin falling off, blistering, bones sticking out, internal bleeding, going blind...the issue is tame due to the comics code, but google it and you'll see just how bad it is.

Geez...we're not saying Jean's indestructible. But almost 60 years of publication history shows much more often than not, if she's gonna go down, she's going down fighting with everything she has

1. angel didnt have a moment, nor did husk. they died immediately in the explosion. it's not all about jean.

2. see the scan above she has in the past.

3. see point 2.

4. not when she is gravely injured, shocked with grief at the death of her friends while also communicating telepathically to a team millions of miles away from her will she be prepared against a surprise attack on her pod. just differences of opinion here.

[thechronic92]

This is dumb. Any character not named Cyclops, Emma or Kitty briefly getting the spotlight should be a cause for celebration. I don't remember this much salt from Storm fans when Cyclops was the only character that mattered. It's crabs in a bucket mentality.

[Celestialbodies]

I don't get it either, Jean was dead for 17 years. I don't see how she was taking anyone's spotlight.

Which is the funny part, for someone who lacks a personality, whose weaker than their faves, and has contributed nothing outside of Phoenix she sure can get under the skin of supposed better characters fans. Their frightened of what the potential of Jean even appearing means for their faves, just so we're clear the two things aren't mutually exclusive....

I don't buy that Jean is oh so affected by the mind link with the others...Jean even tells M the team link is no problem, but panics over the idea of maintaining the link to Earth by herself. Every one on the team is highly experienced, Jean has worked with them and dealt with heightened emotions.
Jean wasn't afraid to be in Moira's mind as she was dying...she wasn't even afraid to be in Mastermind's mind as he was dying from the legacy virus. Jean also stopped a shockwave rider from committing suicide by psychically sustaining his life force with her own, despite the risk if he should die while they're connected.

Did Jean panic when Magneto ripped out Wolverine's adamantium...the extreme pain he was in, everyone's worrying about him (and Xavier) , Jean holding him together telekinetically and suppressing his pain telepathically...their aircraft falling to pieces on the way home. No, she showed grit...resolve

Did she panic when Avalon was destroyed, learning Rusty Collins was killed, a young mutant she personally trained, and trying to rescue Skids and keep them safe?

Even asteroid M in NXM...as doomed as the situation was, Jean was still at least trying to cool things down by slowing down the molecules around them.

The issue is not Jean overcoming ever obstacle, but how she responds to those obstacles...and she doesn't need to be mansplained (or M-splained) the high stakes or to be told do whatever is necessary to complete the mission.

"Don't *#^@&! patronize me!" - A better written Jean Grey

Thank you!!

People keep trying to argue that folks were mad Jean died instead of being mad that she went out like a wet blanket. Is the nuance that complex or is it just posting in bad faith? Lol

They understand exactly what we mean it's just because we aren't overtly upset over something as important as an ugly costume change, or my favorite naps during issues their playing at not understanding!

You're leaning way too hard into "her friends are dying Oh Em Gee!" This was an extremely high stakes mission and after the explosion, they all knew what it was going to take from there on out. Everyone else, with the exception of Mystique(stupid of her not assuming an Orchis worker form while skulking around) was in do or die mode. Nightcrawler and Wolverine got a very heroic last stand, as did Monet.

Jean is not a paper cup that just crumples under stress, physical or emotional. As she told Cassandra, empathy isn't weakness, it just means she has something bigger than herself to fight for...and that makes her dangerous. She would take just a moment to process their loss, then fight even harder to make their deaths matter.

Nothing is really going to be 100% analogous to that issue because death at that scale was a deliberate plot point...but I and others have mentioned plenty of similar stakes...but to me her greatest show of resolve was the Shuttle mission...Classic X-Men #8 goes into more detail...enduring extreme radiation poisoning and not faltering, hair falling out, skin falling off, blistering, bones sticking out, internal bleeding, going blind...the issue is tame due to the comics code, but google it and you'll see just how bad it is.

Geez...we're not saying Jean's indestructible. But almost 60 years of publication history shows much more often than not, if she's gonna go down, she's going down fighting with everything she has

I think the WORSE excuse I've heard from HOX/POX was "Oh the stakes were high so were her emotions", I've been reading Jean a LONG time and she's been in worse situations and performed much better!! She's not an amateur death isn't something she's unfamiliar with, didn't the PF resurrect her ENTIRE FAMILY as well as Ex-Husband in an attempt to convince her to accept its power and she held her resolve and did the right thing, yet a few team members dying was going to send her overboard?

This is dumb. Any character not named Cyclops, Emma or Kitty briefly getting the spotlight should be a cause for celebration. I don't remember this much salt from Storm fans when Cyclops was the only character that mattered. It's crabs in a bucket mentality.

Exactly!!!

Ellis had Storm BEGGING Emma of all people to both insult her and if she could be allowed to be an X-men again, and yet most of the ire spilling from her fan are at Jean. For some reason their under the impression, Storm/Jean are in a competition and in order for Storm to succeed Jean must not...