Floyd Mayweather vs The Four Kings

[FistofIron]

How would Floyd do in boxing matches versus the four kings?

Marvin Hagler

Sugar Ray Leonard

Tommy Hearns

Roberto Duran

[Beadle]

He certainly wouldn’t want any part of Leonard or Hearns, who fought all the way up to Light Heavy, IIRC. They’d break him hard. I’d expect Hagler to out-power him as well, but maybe not by quite the same degree.

I’d have loved if it would have been possible to have a Prime Floyd vs Prime Durán match though.

[grampagen]

Clinching with Duran would be a monstrous mistake, but I think Floyd would out-point him from a distance.

Agreed on Hearns and Hagler, the power output would be far too much.

Of course, Leonard did fight Mayweather Senior back in the day, but while he set the foundation of his style, he's obviously not 1:1 analogous with Junior.

Hm...what weightclass are we spotting Mayweather in these matches?

[FistofIron]

Clinching with Duran would be a monstrous mistake, but I think Floyd would out-point him from a distance.

Agreed on Hearns and Hagler, the power output would be far too much.

Of course, Leonard did fight Mayweather Senior back in the day, but while he set the foundation of his style, he's obviously not 1:1 analogous with Junior.

Hm...what weightclass are we spotting Mayweather in these matches?

I think the highest Floyd has fought at is 154 so put him and everyone else there with the exception of Hagler.

[FistofIron]

I think the most interesting fight would be between Floyd and Duran. I’m believe Floyd would have a hell of a time keeping Durán off of him.

[grampagen]

I think the highest Floyd has fought at is 154 so put him and everyone else there with the exception of Hagler.

OK, that's fair.

In this case I'm not sure how we'd qualify Hagler, since he never went below middleweight. Even if he had to cut his conditioning was insane.

I think the most interesting fight would be between Floyd and Duran. I’m believe Floyd would have a hell of a time keeping Durán off of him.

Agreed, especially if Duran hasn't been partying for months like he did before the 'No Mas' fight with Leonard.

Floyd's smart enough to not let Duran get super in-close, where he'd start pulling the guard and grappling and bullying. He'd definitely press his reach advantage - according to BoxRec, Floyd has almost 20cm on Duran - but I'm not sure, at this weight, if he's quite quick enough to get away from Duran at his leisure.

Suppose he could try to clown Roberto like Ray did, but there were many external circumstances leading up to that.

[FistofIron]

OK, that's fair.

In this case I'm not sure how we'd qualify Hagler, since he never went below middleweight. Even if he had to cut his conditioning was insane.



Agreed, especially if Duran hasn't been partying for months like he did before the 'No Mas' fight with Leonard.

Floyd's smart enough to not let Duran get super in-close, where he'd start pulling the guard and grappling and bullying. He'd definitely press his reach advantage - according to BoxRec, Floyd has almost 20cm on Duran - but I'm not sure, at this weight, if he's quite quick enough to get away from Duran at his leisure.

Suppose he could try to clown Roberto like Ray did, but there were many external circumstances leading up to that.

I think Durán might be the most intriguing matchup. I think Floyd’s worst match might be against Hearns.

[The Arbiter]

I think Durán might be the most intriguing matchup. I think Floyd’s worst match might be against Hearns.

Agreed on both points.

Duran would.... prooobably lose more often then not on points? But it would be a very interesting fight.

[FistofIron]

Agreed on both points.

Duran would.... prooobably lose more often then not on points? But it would be a very interesting fight.

I need a new fight night game bad haha.

[big_adventure]

Assuming that they all fight at middleweight...

First thing here is that nobody is knocking Floyd out. Nobody has ever come close, and it's not going to start in these examples. He's too quick and too skilled.

Duran would lose the vast majority on points - Floyd is far too quick and skilled to ever let Duran close.

Hearns - similar results, Floyd simply won't let Hit Man play his game. He's a better boxer than Duran, so the results are closer, but it's still going to be a large majority to Money.

Hagler - Hagler is closer in speed and closer in skill, being markedly better then the two above here, while still hitting HARD. He will win more than Hearns, although I still don't think he's getting a majority.

Leonard - this gets interesting. Sugar Ray is quick, skilled and... beloved by refs, fans, scorers and everybody else. He's still not as quick or skilled as Floyd. It's really going to depend on whether Leonard's "aura" - read favoritism - scores him an edge when the fight goes the distance. And it will definitely go the distance.

tl;dr Floyd takes the majority against any of them, ranging from a vast edge to a small one, but it's a real edge. That 50-0 pro record is no joke, and his most notable amateur loss was clear and blatant robbery.

[FistofIron]

Assuming that they all fight at middleweight...

First thing here is that nobody is knocking Floyd out. Nobody has ever come close, and it's not going to start in these examples. He's too quick and too skilled.

Duran would lose the vast majority on points - Floyd is far too quick and skilled to ever let Duran close.

Hearns - similar results, Floyd simply won't let Hit Man play his game. He's a better boxer than Duran, so the results are closer, but it's still going to be a large majority to Money.

Hagler - Hagler is closer in speed and closer in skill, being markedly better then the two above here, while still hitting HARD. He will win more than Hearns, although I still don't think he's getting a majority.

Leonard - this gets interesting. Sugar Ray is quick, skilled and... beloved by refs, fans, scorers and everybody else. He's still not as quick or skilled as Floyd. It's really going to depend on whether Leonard's "aura" - read favoritism - scores him an edge when the fight goes the distance. And it will definitely go the distance.

tl;dr Floyd takes the majority against any of them, ranging from a vast edge to a small one, but it's a real edge. That 50-0 pro record is no joke, and his most notable amateur loss was clear and blatant robbery.

Floyd has never been stopped but he has been rocked multiple times. The people that rocked him don’t hit as hard as Hagler or Hearns.

He could beat Durán but Durán could also beat him. Durán is often looked at as a brawler but he was actually a skilled infighter who could stick to his opponents like glue.

Hearns is entirely too big for Floyd. Floyd simply isn’t getting past his jab.

Hagler would be in his face all day and Floyd simply doesn’t have the power to keep him off of him.

I need to think more about the Leonard fight.

[big_adventure]

Floyd has never been stopped but he has been rocked multiple times. The people that rocked him don’t hit as hard as Hagler or Hearns.

He could beat Durán but Durán could also beat him. Durán is often looked at as a brawler but he was actually a skilled infighter who could stick to his opponents like glue.

Hearns is entirely too big for Floyd. Floyd simply isn’t getting past his jab.

Hagler would be in his face all day and Floyd simply doesn’t have the power to keep him off of him.

I need to think more about the Leonard fight.

Ok, so anyone COULD beat anyone else.

Duran was great... But he was also not all that big and needs to get in close. Floyd is a genius at never letting that happen. Also, don't let Floyd's last couple of appearances, in his upper 30's, tarnish your memory of what a freak of nature that guy was when younger. Duran has almost no chance of closing with the guy...

Hearns is taller and longer, definitely. But at middleweight he definitely didn't hit like he did at cruiser. And he's soooo much slower than Floyd. Would he get a few wins out of 10? Sure. But nowhere near a majority.

Like I said above, Hagler is the toughest match, he's quick, strong, skilled, and generally stays home with his guard ready. He's also still nowhere near as quick or skilled as Floyd.

Im old enough to have watched all of these guys fight in their primes. It seems to me that you are letting Floyd's last few (10 or so) fights, where he just rested on speed and skill to outpoint fools and never tried to really punch, outweigh what he did before that. If you want to consider Prime Hagler, you need to consider prime Floyd as well.

[FistofIron]

Ok, so anyone COULD beat anyone else.

Duran was great... But he was also not all that big and needs to get in close. Floyd is a genius at never letting that happen. Also, don't let Floyd's last couple of appearances, in his upper 30's, tarnish your memory of what a freak of nature that guy was when younger. Duran has almost no chance of closing with the guy...

Hearns is taller and longer, definitely. But at middleweight he definitely didn't hit like he did at cruiser. And he's soooo much slower than Floyd. Would he get a few wins out of 10? Sure. But nowhere near a majority.

Like I said above, Hagler is the toughest match, he's quick, strong, skilled, and generally stays home with his guard ready. He's also still nowhere near as quick or skilled as Floyd.

Im old enough to have watched all of these guys fight in their primes. It seems to me that you are letting Floyd's last few (10 or so) fights, where he just rested on speed and skill to outpoint fools and never tried to really punch, outweigh what he did before that. If you want to consider Prime Hagler, you need to consider prime Floyd as well.

If Castillo can push Floyd around then I don’t see why someone better like Durán couldn’t.

Honestly Hearns at 154 isn’t much slower than Mayweather. He’s definitely in his ballpark speed wise and his reach and power will seal the deal. He’d be a nightmare opponent for Floyd.

Hagler wouldn’t let Floyd breathe. He’s awesome at trapping his opponents and Floyd doesn’t have the firepower to keep him off.

[big_adventure]

If Castillo can push Floyd around then I don’t see why someone better like Durán couldn’t.

Honestly Hearns at 154 isn’t much slower than Mayweather. He’s definitely in his ballpark speed wise and his reach and power will seal the deal. He’d be a nightmare opponent for Floyd.

Hagler wouldn’t let Floyd breathe. He’s awesome at trapping his opponents and Floyd doesn’t have the firepower to keep him off.

OK, so you're saying that fighters can't have a bad day? Especially when they are fighting at lightweight?

So for you, Tyson losing to Douglas, for example, was normal, and points to a specific weakness to Tyson's fighting?

Because Floyd had a "bad fight" against Castillo in the first fight, though still won, whether that was "fair" or not is a matter of opinion, then absolutely handed the guy his ass on a platter in the second, 8 months later. And, please, go back and watch the first fight again, with the horrible commentary turned off, and score it yourself. If you come up with Castillo winning more than 4 rounds, I don't know what to tell you, I believe that you are a fan of boxing and believe that you know the sport, but only pretty silly bias could come up with that result.

Castillo is slightly larger, and has a much longer reach, then Duran, but both of them are WAY short of Mayweather. Like I said, it's possible for Duran to get lucky and win a fight here or there, but like one in ten, maybe. Duran lost 38% as many pro fights - 19 - as Mayweather FOUGHT, and it's not like those losses were all against world beaters.

Hearns has a better chance, definitely, but again, he's still much slower than Floyd - who was one of the quickest and slickest fighters ever - and less technically skilled. He might get a couple/few wins out of 10, but no way in hell more than that. At middleweight, he lost to Iran Barkley in 1988. Maybe that was a bad day? But he confirmed that loss in LH a few years later.

Again, those are great fighters. But Mayweather is a "best ever" argument guy.

Let's apply a Bill James type of "eye-test":

During their career, how often was the fighter considered the best in his class by acclamation, if ever?

Duran: honestly, he was never the absolute best in the world at any class, at any time in his career, despite holding belts. You could argue that he was considered clearly the best lightweight for a while.

Hearns: It's close, but really, he was always overshadowed by someone, even when he held a belt. Leonard, then Hagler, were always considered better.

Hagler: Ah, here we go: Hagler was definitely considered one of the top two in his class for years, and the best on and off.

Leonard: Sugar Ray was the other guy on that list with Hagler.

Floyd: Yeah, definitely, and probably for around 15 years.

Stepping up: was the fighter ever considered the best "pound-for-pound" boxer in the world?

Duran: Not really qualifying for list one, means he's not making it onto list two.

Hearns: Again, nope.

Hagler: Probably, in the early/mid-80's, but this "pound for pound" thing starts to look at form and skill and style a bit more, and Hagler was more of a bruiser: he was crazy skilled, but people generally looked to his ability to destroy fools.

Leonard: Yeah, he definitely was, though I am firmly in the Hagler camp of Hagler v. Leonard. Leonard was a consummate showman and a great interview, in addition to being "the golden boy" and yes, being a great fighter.

Mayweather: Duh. He held this fictional title for years. He's been repeatedly named this by every boxing publication on the planet.

The stats (questionable in boxing, but they do exist) and the eye test agree: Floyd is the most accurate fighter ever, and the best defensive fighter ever. These things are shown in the numbers, and they are clear to pretty much everyone who watches boxing. Yeah, it's fashionable to hate on Money - the dude is collossal douche, Hitler and Napoleon would be "dude, tone down the megalomania, yo!", and, for the best part of his career, never let you feel the raw violence in the sport. It was almost impossible to land a heavy hit on him, and he didn't bother risking it against anyone else, because he didn't need to. You appreciate the skill and the mastery (if one is honest) but you miss the knockouts, the feeling that the fight is on the edge or in doubt, the feeling that the result can change in 10 seconds. That's one of the brilliant things with watching boxing: someone can absolutely master 10 1/2 rounds, then wind up carried out of the ring 10 seconds later when everything goes wrong. It's why you don't EVER take a snack break in the middle of a round. Floyd barely ever gave us that: you knew it wasn't happening to him, and you knew that he didn't care to do it to anyone else (nor would he ever have to). Honestly, you COULD take a snack break in a round of a Mayweather fight. You weren't going to miss anything you wouldn't see dozens of other times in the fight: somebody would try to take control, and fail miserably, never landing a clean shot, while Floyd peppered them with clean, crisp jabs and point-grabbing crosses. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The guy was the boxing scientist. He had a process, he trusted it entirely, and it never failed him as a pro. He was never desperate, never "lost", never out of control. Which is less fun, to an extent: there was no mystery, no doubt, neither to the tactics and techniques, nor to the outcomes.

Anyway, end diatribe. I'm not a Mayweather fan, but I have to appreciate the skill and the natural talent.

[The Arbiter]

Big likes Mayweather! Gross! :P