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  1. #31
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    I don't think adding a bunch of male super-heroes to the title would get more people reading it, and I don't think de-emphasising all its unique selling points would help either.

    The big problem with Wonder Woman, I think, is a lack of consistency. The audience doesn't know what a Wonder Woman story is.

    With Batman, people know his origin, Bruce Wayne, Gotham City, the Bat Cave, Batmobile, Commissioner Gordon, Afred, Robin, Joker, Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Riddler, Bane, Mr. Freeze, the Penguin, etc.

    With Superman, people know his origin, his powers, Clark Kent, Metropolis, Smallville, Krypton, the Daily Planet, the Fortress of Solitude, Kryptonite, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, Perry White, Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Bizarro, Metallo, etc.

    With Wonder Woman, I think people would struggle to tell you her secret identity and powers, they might know Steve Trevor, the Amazons and the invisible plane, maybe Cheetah and Ares. DC changed her "made from clay" origin to "another daughter of Zeus", so there's no correct answer to what her origin is. Wonder Girl's origin and place in the mythos is even more unclear. What are the all-time classic, always-in-print, evergreen Wonder Woman stories? I couldn't tell you.

  2. #32
    Spectacular Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I honestly dont know her supporting cast other than Steve Trevor....��.
    Also... with all the changes to the books I legit dont know if she even has a job outside WW nowdays.
    Does she even need one?
    Well, how would you know if you don't read her comic?

    Being an imortal ageless demigod or goddess or whatever Id feel like shed have a greater enemy base too.

    Vandal Savage should hate her ar least, right? It shouldn't just be the cheetah and Aries
    Even if Wonder Woman is immortal, she's always been depicted around the same age as Superman and Batman in the main continuity, so why would Vandal Savage hate her in particular? And her Rogues Gallery is certainly much bigger than just Cheetah and Ares, but again, you have to actually read her comic to know that.

  3. #33
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    Wonder Woman has a number of characters to attract new demographics they just aren't utilized well. Adding a male counterpart to Diana's world isn't innovative. The reason Supergirl and Batgirl were created was because of a dearth of female characters in comics. Male characters do not have this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Well... this is just my opinion, but I don't see sidekicks as being the answer. I think the #1 thing to do is to STOP making her an 'ICON' that 'Stands' for stuff. She's always promoted as the feminist icon... the epitome of 'Girl power'. Now she's pushed as a Gay icon.... and they've gone out of their way to stop the whole cheesecake aspect... It's literally DC's way of saying that for straight white males... there's nothing here for you. If you want Wonder Woman to be popular with everyone.... make her accessible to everyone. Supergirl, Batgirl, Power Girl... they don't have these stigmas... but Wonder Woman? Everything about her has to MEAN something... Make a kick butt awesome character, having kick butt awesome adventures and saving the world... without preaching to the audience. That's step one.

    Step 2... make her stories MATTER. When was the last time a wonder woman story had any impact on the DC universe at large? Any kind of crossover or world changing thing that upset the status quo and made people run out to see what they missed? War of the Gods maybe?? They've rebooted her, they've killed her... they've replaced her... but if I'm reading Batman or Superman or Green Lantern... I haven't missed ANYTHING by skipping her books. Batman, Superman, Green Lantern were all 'killed' and replaced with new guys.... but when Wonder Woman did it... nobody cared. Artemis didn't show up in any Superman or Green Lantern books I was reading. Whereas Steel and Kyle and Azbats were showing up all over the place.

    If they fix those two things, then I do think that the readership would go up. 1) The books should be for everyone.... and 2) Everyone NEEDS to read them....
    Being a feminist icon didn't hurt her movie and she's already more accessible than Power Girl whose reputation for being a cheese cake character hasn't helped her reach a larger audience.

  4. #34
    Fantastic Member basbash99's Avatar
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    I'd echo that WW just needs more readers, period. She's had some great runs over the years but these largely seem to be self-contained or exist in separate universes from one another in terms of their takes on the character.

    Part of the struggle lies in her (and many of DC characters) origins. They all originate in an earlier era of comics when the heroes were paragons of virtue, without any real baked in flaws aside from occasionally being brash/arrogant... and thus are much less relatable than other heroes who came along later. Batman is the most successful because he's the least goody two-shoes & most flawed of the bunch, and that is basically baked into his origin. Supes and WW come across as more or less perfect, and even though many writers have tried to dispel that perceived perfection over the years, nothing really seems to stick. Rucka tried, Simone tried, Azzarello tried... doesn't help that many of these writers just discard the previous status quo and that DC's entire continuity seems to be constantly resetting itself. Marvel's heroes largely don't have the same problems because most of them have relatable human flaws that are baked in since those flaws have largely been emphasized since the beginning...so that even though they. like DC's heroes, are constantly subject to new takes from new writers, when they inevitably revert back to basics they are still satisfying. Its ironic that Cap was pointed out as being somewhat similar to WW and Supes earlier in this thread, since he does originate from the same era as WW and Supes and thus doesn't have a baked in flaw, aside from being Rip Van Winkle. All just my opinion, of course.

  5. #35
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Well, how would you know if you don't read her comic?
    I think you missed some context. Maybe you didn't see the other post I don't know.


    But just for context, you learn about Lois Lane, and Alfred and Robin just from encountering Batman and Superman in the Justice League books. The super Sons actually got their own book. You knew about Jason Todd and his death because of how it affected Batman inother books. Plus there was a HUGE vote back in the day!
    We meet the entire family in huge spiraling crossover events based on certain characters.
    I hadn't been about Flash Books for many many years until Flashpoint, and unless you were reading Justice League Europe or Justice League International oh, you probably didn't even remember Sue dibny and how important she was. But she was...

    The reason I don't know her story or Supporting Cast is because of isolating her book and cast over there somewhere.

    Further.. the idea of her being tied to superman's age is pretty wild and wow just making that being being the hill to die on is really bad in taste her being limited by her approximate relation to superman is pretty funny though as thats the thing she should not be.

    As far as vandal savage... is she showed up in WW1 like im the movies (great idea btw) and maybe 5G, Hed have encountered her, aware of her, and shed have thwarted several of his moves.
    So under That paradign we can hopefully we can get some tales of wonder woman throughout the 20th century.
    Lastly a man elevated into Immortality and an Earthbound demi-god or a Pygmalion or realy whatever the hell they come up with next explain her divinity are great foils.
    You don't need to read her book to understand that.

    She needs exports to get people interested. I didn't go read Hawkman to find out who vandal savage was, I didn't need to read A green lantern book to find out about sinestro.
    The worst thing that can be said or impoied is that somehow its the customers fault for not encountering or being engaged with a product. They need to do more not, "I" somehow need to reach more. Perish the thought.

    Agent Z
    Wonder Woman has a number of characters to attract new demographics they just aren't utilized well. Adding a male counterpart to Diana's world isn't innovative
    This really isnt the thread for new demographics though is it?
    I frankly... but frankly I think there's not a male spin-off or female for that matter because brand isnt strong enough "among readers" to really have one. . . and jesuse dont let Morrison or someone start writing Son of Vulcan and it actually OUTSELLS the main book.
    It would just inspire the wrong reactions all around.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    There is no point in adding a male spin -off counterpart for Wonder Woman. The reason Supergirl, the various Batgirls and Batwoman exist is because the Superman and Batman franchises are mostly male centric with male characters, male supporting casts, and male villains. The same can be said for the majority of mainstream comic franchises. These properties are popular among women as well, but it doesn't hurt to have "gateway" characters that also include the likes of Lois Lane, Catwoman or Mary Jane for them to relate to or like.

    Wonder Woman already flips the script by making all the standard superhero tropes and roles women centric: the important parental figure is (or should be) the mother instead of the father, most of her mentors, allies and supporting characters are women and her rogues gallery is comprised mostly of varied types of villainous women. We don't need a male POV because there isn't a shortage of that in the comics industry. It's not interesting and not the book for it. And she has male friends and allies like Steve, Ferdinand, Hermes, Darnell, Indelicato, etc. who are available and could actually be used

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post

    Agent Z

    This really isnt the thread for new demographics though is it?

    I was more responding to this post by the OP


    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    I've always thought the Batman franchise became the behemoth it did because from the beginning editors had a goal of growing the audience by growing the supporting cast. There was a definite focus on surrounding a popular main character with supporting cast and villains. Robin was created to appeal to young kids. Batgirl( 60's version) was meant to target young girls. Batwoman LGBT etc. Most Of Wonderwoman's support characters just seem to double down on the audience she already has (Nubia being the exception).
    And as others have pointed out, the issue is getting new readers period for WW.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    The reason I don't know her story or Supporting Cast is because of isolating her book and cast over there somewhere.
    That's not her book's fault though, it's on the rest of DC for not utilizing her characters.

    Further.. the idea of her being tied to superman's age is pretty wild and wow just making that being being the hill to die on is really bad in taste her being limited by her approximate relation to superman is pretty funny though as thats the thing she should not be
    Eh? What does it have to do with Superman? She's just never been depicted as centuries old in the comics. That's from the movies and Lynda Carter show. I personally dislike the idea, since it would be a problem for her supporting cast and villains that aren't immortal.

    She needs exports to get people interested. I didn't go read Hawkman to find out who vandal savage was, I didn't need to read A green lantern book to find out about sinestro.
    Well, it's not like she doesn't have any. Cheetah is in Justice League, Circe in Justice League Dark (very well used, btw), and Giganta probably appears more in the other books than in the WW book. There's also Wonder Girl in Young Justice and Artemis in Red Hood and the Outlaws. So it's not like she's completely isolated.

  9. #39
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I was more responding to this post by the OP




    And as others have pointed out, the issue is getting new readers period for WW.
    My bad. Gotcha. I was in that camp.


    Well, it's not like she doesn't have any. Cheetah is in Justice League, Circe in Justice League Dark (very well used, btw), and Giganta probably appears more in the other books than in the WW book. There's also Wonder Girl in Young Justice and Artemis in Red Hood and the Outlaws. So it's not like she's completely isolated.
    And I'm telling you she FEELS isolated. Now don't get me wrong I can't quantify that. I just telling you how it feels. In line with what the OTHER post said the last time she was the focus of an EVENT was "War of the Gods" she was in flashpoint and Kingdom Come and everything else but she nor her cosmology were PRIME ACTORS.

    Eh? What does it have to do with Superman? She's just never been depicted as centuries old in the comics. That's from the movies and Lynda Carter show. I personally dislike the idea, since it would be a problem for her supporting cast and villains that aren't immortal.
    You said.
    Even if Wonder Woman is immortal, she's always been depicted around the same age as Superman and Batman in the main continuity
    I'm not operating off any "Main" continuity. I was operating off the meta-narrative that an Immortal Demigod, and an ascended human immortal would make great foils for each other.

    Though I'll point out the new map post 5G has her appearing inline with the movie and Lynda Carter show I guess... that was a long time ago.
    I personally dislike the idea, since it would be a problem for her supporting cast and villains that aren't immortal.
    Exactly. So I gave her an Immortal Enemy. Further let it be know that if she DOESN'T dies in battle eventually she becomes an issue for Vandal Savage in the future, and really thats the things she should be dealing with.
    ....
    I mean Giganta, Cheetah? Circe? 2 of them are Bruisers, thats going only going to get you so far, in a narrative sense. I think we all can agree.

    Aside from Circe Giving Magog his gems in new 52 she's been a mediocre Villian for a long time.

    She was behind the whole "War of the Gods" thing. I think Hecate would be a bit better honestly.

    But what I want to get at is... I mean. Her villians aren't like "The Joker" or "Lex Luthor" really. I don't know how to explain that from here. :/ sorry

    Hell bring on Von Bach.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 02-29-2020 at 08:42 AM.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  10. #40
    Spectacular Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    In line with what the OTHER post said the last time she was the focus of an EVENT was "War of the Gods" she was in flashpoint and Kingdom Come and everything else but she nor her cosmology were PRIME ACTORS.
    There was also Amazons Attack, but that one was so bad, I guess everyone likes to pretend it never happened.

    I mean Giganta, Cheetah? Circe? 2 of them are Bruisers, thats going only going to get you so far, in a narrative sense. I think we all can agree.
    So your solution is to replace her actual iconic villains with Vandale Savage, who never had any real connection with Wonder Woman and is nowhere near her power level? Cheetah has god powers, what does Savage have?

  11. #41
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    One easy means of elevating WW's stature would be to move Supes and Bats to part-time JL members, each showing up, say, twice a year, and tie her books to JL more tightly. Don't know how well it would sell, but it might like elevate her.

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  13. #43
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    There was also Amazons Attack, but that one was so bad, I guess everyone likes to pretend it never happened.



    So your solution is to replace her actual iconic villains with Vandale Savage, who never had any real connection with Wonder Woman and is nowhere near her power level? Cheetah has god powers, what does Savage have?
    Ha. I admit, I did forget about that.

    1. I dont find her villains to be Iconic. Giganta? I mean... I get it but the Attack the 50ft woman, and the bride of wolfman had cultural gravitas back in the day, but they dont have any Impact or reach today nor in the dc universe at large. Im kind of at a loss how to bridge this gap here... anybody?

    2. I offer a counter question. What powers does lex luthor have?

    But if you want a direct answer he's Immortal, Rich, super strong, invulnerable, regenerating and has as mastery over both incredible figting ability and more importantly strategy and resources gathered over thousands of yeara of warfare..

    Im gonna say youre looking at that all wrong though. She doesn't need an enemy she can pucnh down or one whose stupid enough to get caught in their own machinations.
    So I mean Vandal was an example not the end all be all, but...

    I have a hard time coming up with someone who represents the "World of man" more. They're out there assuredly which is why I bought up Von Bach... and if you think how the Vysegard states have been proselytizing the last few years hell he migh be looked at as a national hero ifnhe showed up today.

    Yes. She needs new villians.
    Also she needs to be the center of more events, (butt 1st the event fatigue needs to wear off), more elseworlds, and maybe a worlds finest or 2.

    Funny thought that... how many elseworlds novels are even about diana comparatively?
    How many worlds finest?

    Get this though. Im not a hater of the character. I kinda think though talking about this for the first time that... she feels a bit isolated and through that a few other issues develop.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I mean Giganta, Cheetah? Circe? 2 of them are Bruisers, thats going only going to get you so far, in a narrative sense. I think we all can agree.

    Aside from Circe Giving Magog his gems in new 52 she's been a mediocre Villian for a long time.

    She was behind the whole "War of the Gods" thing. I think Hecate would be a bit better honestly.

    But what I want to get at is... I mean. Her villians aren't like "The Joker" or "Lex Luthor" really. I don't know how to explain that from here. :/ sorry

    Hell bring on Von Bach.
    Her villains can't attain the level of Joker or Lex with less opportunities given. Both of them have a HUGE amount of dud stories (especially the Joker, he's been absolutely terrible since Dini and Morrison left) to their name, but they are used so much that there are more opportunities for good and great stories. Plus they get used much more in other media. Cheetah is only just now appearing for the first time in live action, Joker and Lex have been used way more in that medium. Even when they suck (Leto and Eisenberg).

    When written by people who actually know what they are doing, Cheetah isn't just a bruiser. And both she and Circe are immortal so there is no need to bring in Vandal Savage.

  15. #45
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    When written by people who actually know what they are doing, Cheetah isn't just a bruiser. And both she and Circe are immortal so there is no need to bring in Vandal Savage.
    Dont tell. Show.

    I mean when was cheetah written to be anything else?
    Shes not even a paper tiger, really

    But ... I mean... if you have the receipts? I have this DC app I keep meaning to unsub from.
    Point me in the direction of her fighting via machination instead of claws.
    And not just "well shes a brilliant scientist" or some such. Show.

    Her villains can't attain the level of Joker or Lex with less opportunities given
    I'm really not a fan of that particular excuse.
    There are villains that have been created since and have become more iconic with their first and only showing. That happens all the time.

    I mean, I'm not going to give any examples because that would just mean we get bogged down on complaining about the examples clearly.

    But you are correct in that the villians haven't been written in such a way that anyone other than wonder woman cares about them.

    Well there was the one segment of justice league: dark.
    But I dont think that was a good showing for circe at all.

    Finally, pointing back to the original posters topic. People who are happy amd reading wonder woman aren't really the focus here either. If the opinion is that she needs more male readers or AS I and several other posters said "More readers in general".

    Then try to hear me when I say.

    A BIG point is that her viliains seem uninspired, and unsuitable comparatively.
    Give her more
    She has too few stories that become world events.
    Give her more.
    She seems somewhat isolated from the rest of the DC pie in quite a few ways.
    Give her more.

    Stop this silly standard forum tactic of "Thats my FAVORITE that youre attacking". I mean im not the guy thats like give us more cheesecake.

    I actually saying there a LOT of wasted gravitas there with this character. Fix it
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 02-29-2020 at 11:14 AM.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

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