Controversial Statement: Wonderwoman needs more male readers.

[mathew101281]

If you are talking about create some male Wonder Woman's counterpart, there are two great problems to solve: the first one is that we already have character like Superman or Shazam, who are almost omnipotent superheroes, so it is difficult to create another interesting character of that kind, the second one is that it is difficult to justify a male counterpart of an heroine who is an amazon, because male amazons can't exist; you might use some mithological character like Hercules, but in this way you risk to have problems wit the concept itself of Wonder Woman, that was meant to be the some sort of feminist superheroine.

They don’t need to be direct one to one parallels power wise. They just need to make sense in the context of her world and be cool enough that people want them to stick around.

[mathew101281]

I've always thought the Batman franchise became the behemoth it did because from the beginning editors had a goal of growing the audience by growing the supporting cast. There was a definite focus on surrounding a popular main character with supporting cast and villains. Robin was created to appeal to young kids. Batgirl( 60's version) was meant to target young girls. Batwoman LGBT etc. Most Of Wonderwoman's support characters just seem to double down on the audience she already has (Nubia being the exception).

[Psy-lock]

She already has multiple male counterparts: Hercules, Warkiller, Jason...Hercules was even mistakenly called "Wonder Man" at one point
RCO005.jpg
The problem is, Wonder Woman's supporting cast has barely been used for decades. Steve and Etta were practically non-existent until Rebirth. The Wonder Girls barely appear in her comic as well. So of course there aren't any male counterparts on the level of Supergirl and Batgirl, her comic can't even properly use the existent female ones.

[Jackalope89]

She already has multiple male counterparts: Hercules, Warkiller, Jason...Hercules was even mistakenly called "Wonder Man" at one point
RCO005.jpg
The problem is, Wonder Woman's supporting cast has barely been used for decades. Steve and Etta were practically non-existent until Rebirth. The Wonder Girls barely appear in her comic as well. So of course there aren't any male counterparts on the level of Supergirl and Batgirl, her comic can't even properly use the existent female ones.

Hercules, er, I don't know if I would say he's a male counterpart due to the history between him and the Amazons. Jason was, well, not done well at all. And remains dead/in limbo since his arc. Warkiller, I admit to not knowing much about.

[Korath]

That's more because the foundations of Wonder Woman are "rotten" than because it needs more male characters.

Her origins are very problematic from the start, because unlike Batman's or Superman's, which are really simple, straighforward and open to plenty of various stories without betraying them. But Diana's origin as a clay construct, Paradise Island, the americanized take on the Greek ancient Pantheon and Mythology, added to Marston let's say "specific" takes on the whole feminism movement and all that has aged very poorly to me.

Furthermore, even a supportive character like Trevor isn't used well. He still has to be some sort of action hero because obviously a male character who is the love interest of the strongest woman on Earth can't be just a civilian, or someone she loves without him being some sort of great soldier/spy/etc.

There can be great Wonder Woman stories, or runs. But they are harder to pitch and sustain.

[Psy-lock]

Hercules, er, I don't know if I would say he's a male counterpart due to the history between him and the Amazons. Jason was, well, not done well at all. And remains dead/in limbo since his arc. Warkiller, I admit to not knowing much about.

Hercules redeemed himself for that and was forgiven by the Amazons all the way back in Perez' run (though some writers tried making him a villain again several times). Warkiller was created by Zeus along with an all-male race of Gargareans who were supposed to replace the Amazons, so he's literally a male version of Wonder Woman. I don't think he was particularly well received though, since he never appeared in her comic outside of Simone's run.

[Starter Set]

Isn't WW's readership already majority male though?

I would think so too. Don't have any numbers to back it up so just my guess though.

I don't know, women i know tend to read manga and European comics so maybe i lack perspective lol.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That's more because the foundations of Wonder Woman are "rotten" than because it needs more male characters.

Her origins are very problematic from the start, because unlike Batman's or Superman's, which are really simple, straighforward and open to plenty of various stories without betraying them. But Diana's origin as a clay construct, Paradise Island, the americanized take on the Greek ancient Pantheon and Mythology, added to Marston let's say "specific" takes on the whole feminism movement and all that has aged very poorly to me.

I don't think so. Diana's origins are also very simple. She's princess of a warrior tribe of badass women until a fighter pilot crash lands on that island and she volunteers to take him back to man's world. None of that was problematic when it came time to make the Wonder Woman movie and everyone loved it. Also, the Greek Pantheon of DC isn't any more "Americanized" than the Norse Pantheon of Marvel is and the Thor franchise is wildly successful. Also, her "clay" origin was utilized in many different adaptations of her character and it never served as a barrier to her popularity. That, I think, seems mostly a personal opinion.

Furthermore, even a supportive character like Trevor isn't used well. He still has to be some sort of action hero because obviously a male character who is the love interest of the strongest woman on Earth can't be just a civilian, or someone she loves without him being some sort of great soldier/spy/etc.

You mean like how Lois Lane is not just any woman but a superstar reporter?

[Gotham citizen]

I would think so too. Don't have any numbers to back it up so just my guess though.

I don't know, women i know tend to read manga and European comics so maybe i lack perspective lol.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that Harley Quinn is the only US comics woman character who is popular among the female readers.

[…]
You mean like how Lois Lane is not just any woman but a superstar reporter?

Yes and it is a general rule od the storytelling: if you need a counterpart of a main character, then that counterpart must be in some way equal to the main character; this concept is explained very well in this video:

[Midnight_v]

I'm probably in the vast minority here but I did like Hunter Prince. I would have read a spin off about him if they didn't get so weird with his origin in the end, especially if he was in the main continually somehow.

The things I like about Wonder Woman are probably things she's not universally known for. I find her an interesting foil to Superman and Batman's beliefs based on a few stories that I've read over the years, that make me feel like she's a lot more pragmatic than either of them.

Specifically I feel like Wonder Woman will actually kill you. I didn't just get that from the Maxwell Lord story I got that from Kingdom Come and it's been in my head for a very long time. The way she looks at Superman when he says "...but Diana if it's a war people might die."

She's tough, she's a solider in a way that Clark and Bruce are not, because of that the entire "Force Peace" thing that came up years ago made her super interesting.

Today though... I mean someone just said her Origin is "Problematic"... I think the main barrier for many males today is the "well its not written for you" reponse to complaints/opinions.

Gal Gadot pretty gracefully addressed how it isnt just suposed to be for little girls, but the writers of the book imho be more influenced by "getting it right" in relation to buzzwords like "problematic" those of supes or bats... who have an origin unkikely to change too much, and billionaire playboy thing wont go until hes ages to dirt.

I do like her a lot in ensemble books JLA, and Graphic Novels, but I dont ever hear about any of the boys getting thier covers censored either. Nor would I want to....

Id think Id like to turn her to get the treatment that Morrison is giving hal jordan currently or How Ellis did moonknight, or even How Tom King did for Miracle Man.
Someone who really understands the character at base sit down and makes we mere mortals say
"Ohhh, thats why she in the trinity..." or "I get it. At core she's flippin awesome"
The second someone say something like "the culture impact of Marston's veiw of the feminist movement"
Smh. Its like those teachers on Charlie brown. "Wah wha wahwahwahwah"

Just think: A demi-god or god of war, on earth with a secret Island of immortal women... thats what's more likely to have a "cultural impact".

Im suprised theres not an "Exodus" storyline in which a Large amount of refugees start trying to reach paradise Island... to mixed results. (You heard it here first friends and fellow readers!!!)

Shes one of the Big Three... Im more likely to see her movie than read her book. I want to read about a myth in a modern age, but I don't want to read a social studies book in a way that Clark, Bruce, nor Harley for that matter ever get bogged down with... and as u can see there is a push for that when u hear problematic wnr things alomg that line. Honestly? I hope it gets fixed.

[phantom1592]

Well... this is just my opinion, but I don't see sidekicks as being the answer. I think the #1 thing to do is to STOP making her an 'ICON' that 'Stands' for stuff. She's always promoted as the feminist icon... the epitome of 'Girl power'. Now she's pushed as a Gay icon.... and they've gone out of their way to stop the whole cheesecake aspect... It's literally DC's way of saying that for straight white males... there's nothing here for you. If you want Wonder Woman to be popular with everyone.... make her accessible to everyone. Supergirl, Batgirl, Power Girl... they don't have these stigmas... but Wonder Woman? Everything about her has to MEAN something... Make a kick butt awesome character, having kick butt awesome adventures and saving the world... without preaching to the audience. That's step one.

Step 2... make her stories MATTER. When was the last time a wonder woman story had any impact on the DC universe at large? Any kind of crossover or world changing thing that upset the status quo and made people run out to see what they missed? War of the Gods maybe?? They've rebooted her, they've killed her... they've replaced her... but if I'm reading Batman or Superman or Green Lantern... I haven't missed ANYTHING by skipping her books. Batman, Superman, Green Lantern were all 'killed' and replaced with new guys.... but when Wonder Woman did it... nobody cared. Artemis didn't show up in any Superman or Green Lantern books I was reading. Whereas Steel and Kyle and Azbats were showing up all over the place.

If they fix those two things, then I do think that the readership would go up. 1) The books should be for everyone.... and 2) Everyone NEEDS to read them....

[Starter Set]

But the book is already for everyone.

They aren't preaching in it, that's just a cliché.

[Gotham citizen]

I've always thought the Batman franchise became the behemoth it did because from the beginning editors had a goal of growing the audience by growing the supporting cast. There was a definite focus on surrounding a popular main character with supporting cast and villains. Robin was created to appeal to young kids. Batgirl( 60's version) was meant to target young girls. Batwoman LGBT etc. Most Of Wonderwoman's support characters just seem to double down on the audience she already has (Nubia being the exception).

The Batman franchise started to explode only in the last thirty years (thank to the explosion of Batman popularity) and all his supporting characters/counterparts didn't ever have a really successful title, while Batman was able to have 4/5 titles at the same time; for example in the ninety there were Batman, Batman/Detective Comics, Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, Batman: Shadow of the Bat.

[phantom1592]

But the book is already for everyone.

They aren't preaching in it, that's just a cliché.

Probably true. With as many writers and as high a turnaround they have there, I'm sure most of the common myths are just that. But they need to let that become common knowledge. The Media thinks it's pushing the character... but I don't remember the last time I saw an article or push for the character that DIDN'T mention 'feminist', 'Girl power' or 'queer'... They are pushing to bring in the female audience by telling the males that this isn't for them.

Captain America had the same problem for a lot of years. The character is awesome... but the patriotic preaching just got... soooo boring. Show us a kick butt action hero saving the world from supervillain terrorists, and the readers will follow.

[Midnight_v]

But the book is already for everyone.

They aren't preaching in it, that's just a cliché.

I could toltally believe that actually. Though... its get marketed that way from time to time or maybe its held up by very vocal fams/groups as such and it gets muddled.


Huh, while I agree with Phantom1592 in a a few ways there.... I personally am not in it for the "cheesecake" but I cant deny the point hes getting at is something I kinda vibe with theres some dogwhistles there that say stay away. The biggest WW news in years was about a variant cover being censored intead of her killing Maxwell Lord.

I cannot agree MORE about war of the gods being the last WW driven event, not that Im a fan of events buuuuuttt..... this is a problem.

It strikes me as odd also that the female thor run by Jason Aaron was pretty successful despite all those same things working against it. Maybe it wasnt and Im failing the memory test. But it was outselling ww the whole time right?
Idk.

I honestly dont know her supporting cast other than Steve Trevor....��.
Also... with all the changes to the books I legit dont know if she even has a job outside WW nowdays.
Does she even need one?

Being an imortal ageless demigod or goddess or whatever Id feel like shed have a greater enemy base too.

Vandal Savage should hate her ar least, right? It shouldn't just be the cheetah and Aries

The more I consider it the more it seems theres actually a lot thats could be added to this character to make people stand up and take notice that isnt "the cliche"

Edit:: Phantom1592 really gets it.