Controversial Statement: Wonderwoman needs more male readers.

[Psy-lock]

I dont find her villains to be Iconic. Giganta? I mean... I get it but the Attack the 50ft woman, and the bride of wolfman had cultural gravitas back in the day, but they dont have any Impact or reach today nor in the dc universe at large. Im kind of at a loss how to bridge this gap here... anybody?

Certainly not as iconic as Batman villains, but Giganta is iconic by WW standards. She's one of her oldest, most recognizable villains.

I offer a counter question. What powers does lex luthor have?

Lex was created specifically to be a Superman villain. Shoehorning a villain to be WW's arch-enemy is a different thing. DC tried time and time again, it never worked.

Yes. She needs new villians

I think what she really needs is better written villains. Her Rogues Gallery is fine, they just need a writer who actually cares to develop them. Cheetah can be a great foil for Wonder Woman when utilized well. Same for Ares, Circe, Dr Psycho, Veronica Cale...There's so much potential for Dr Cyber to be a great villain in the age of technology, Queen Clea can be a shared villain between WW and Aquaman. Almost every obscure WW villain has potential to be great if the writers give them a chance.

[Bruce Wayne]

One easy means of elevating WW's stature would be to move Supes and Bats to part-time JL members, each showing up, say, twice a year, and tie her books to JL more tightly. Don't know how well it would sell, but it might like elevate her.

That doesn't even make sense. There's no evidence that people will care more about a character if they appear on a team book. Batman being so big is not because of Justice League membership, but he has got memorable runs under his belt most recently Snyder and Morrison. You need to have great runs like these for the character to attract reader. And WW hasn't had a great run in more than 15 years.

If anything the fact that her movie succeeded shows the problem isn't with the character, but rather her publishing woes are more tied in with the editorial leadership at DC who don't understand the character and the book. The fact that DC thought Amazons Attack was a good idea shows the leadership is absolutely at fault.

[Agent Z]

Dont tell. Show.

I mean when was cheetah written to be anything else?
Shes not even a paper tiger, really

But ... I mean... if you have the receipts? I have this DC app I keep meaning to unsub from.
Point me in the direction of her fighting via machination instead of claws.
And not just "well shes a brilliant scientist" or some such. Show.


I'm really not a fan of that particular excuse.
There are villains that have been created since and have become more iconic with their first and only showing. That happens all the time.

I mean, I'm not going to give any examples because that would just mean we get bogged down on complaining about the examples clearly.

But you are correct in that the villians haven't been written in such a way that anyone other than wonder woman cares about them.

Well there was the one segment of justice league: dark.
But I dont think that was a good showing for circe at all.

Finally, pointing back to the original posters topic. People who are happy amd reading wonder woman aren't really the focus here either. If the opinion is that she needs more male readers or AS I and several other posters said "More readers in general".

Then try to hear me when I say.

A BIG point is that her viliains seem uninspired, and unsuitable comparatively.
Give her more
She has too few stories that become world events.
Give her more.
She seems somewhat isolated from the rest of the DC pie in quite a few ways.
Give her more.

Stop this silly standard forum tactic of "Thats my FAVORITE that youre attacking". I mean im not the guy thats like give us more cheesecake.

I actually saying there a LOT of wasted gravitas there with this character. Fix it

Out of curiosity, why don't you think JLD was a good showing for Circe?

[Psy-lock]

Dont tell. Show.

I mean when was cheetah written to be anything else?

Um...From the very beginning? In her first ever appearance she got Wonder Woman arrested by framing her for robbery. Her cunning has always been one of her defining character traits, the problem is that many writers don't know anything about the character and see her as a crazy cat lady.

[Midnight_v]

Out of curiosity, why don't you think JLD was a good showing for Circe?

Hmmm... Y'know. I think thats a similar rabithole. Im gonna avoid going down a path that shifts the focus to why one individual dislikes one individual showing. So while I think it was a poor showing, Im sure no ones holding it up as a crowning, moment of badass and not to goalpost shift either, but thats what Iconic characters need.
Im sure youre not but if you legit want a specific explanation, feel free to pm me

Um...From the very beginning? In her first ever appearance she got Wonder Woman arrested by framing her for robbery. Her cunning has always been one of her defining character traits,

Hahahaha. Really?

Dear Lord, man... "Horrors"...

I hate to be that guy but damn

How will Diana Prince ever escape from the web of such malignant machinations?

I mean, BRUH. You got me there lol.

I can't really argue with that logic, I hope someone in the comic books puts Lex Luthor and Ras a'ghul on notice they've got some serious competition at the next legion of doom/league of assassins event.

She's a bruiser. Maybe shes more, maybe she could run a company or country or a cult but from the outside from every appearance outside of the Wonder Woman books which is kind of what matters here. She's little better than Wonder Woman equivalent sabertooth if shes MORE than that level of thought then I'll gladly read the issue

[SiegePerilous02]

Dont tell. Show.

I mean when was cheetah written to be anything else?
Shes not even a paper tiger, really

But ... I mean... if you have the receipts? I have this DC app I keep meaning to unsub from.
Point me in the direction of her fighting via machination instead of claws.
And not just "well shes a brilliant scientist" or some such. Show.

Perez and Jimenez when she at least didn't always resort to direct confrontations. In the former she released some Khund warriors and mercenaries to steal the lasso for her and then killed them off when they were no longer any use. In the latter when Sebastian Ballesteros stole her power she knew where to look to attain the power of the Furies and kicked his ass to get the powers of the Cheetah back.

And her status as a scientist should be used more. It's a no brainer that utilizing dangerous relics and knowing where to find them would make her dangerous. Writers forgetting this isn't the character's fault. If they fail her in that area, they are also often failing Wonder Woman in general in other areas.

I'm really not a fan of that particular excuse.
There are villains that have been created since and have become more iconic with their first and only showing. That happens all the time.

I mean, I'm not going to give any examples because that would just mean we get bogged down on complaining about the examples clearly.

Why does the excuse work for Batman and Superman's villains then?

But you ask me to post some examples for Cheetah? You should really do the same.

Iconic villains don't vanish after one showing. If a villain makes only one showing, there is likely no interest in bringing them back. What villains became iconic instantly and never came back? Bane and Doomsday certainly don't apply, for better or worse. And the number of iconic villains from the late 80s- now is really slim. You pretty much have those two, Harley, Venom and Carnage and that's it.

But you are correct in that the villians haven't been written in such a way that anyone other than wonder woman cares about them.

So the solution is to bring in a completely unrelated villain?
And how many people really care about Vandal Savage? How much of a draw is he? He's basically discount Ra's al Ghul.

Dear Lord, man... "Horrors"...

I hate to be that guy but damn

How will Diana Prince ever escape from the web of such malignant machinations?

I mean, BRUH. You got me there lol.

I can't really argue with that logic, I hope someone in the comic books puts Lex Luthor and Ras a'ghul on notice they've got some serious competition at the next legion of doom/league of assassins event.

I mean...keep in mind this was a 1940s comic when they were aimed more at children. What do you expect exactly?

Did you forget all the goofy shit Lex and the Joker did around the same time, and that Lex's motivation was being pissed that Superman destroyed his hair? Or about the Joker's "boner" crimes?

[Psy-lock]

Hahahaha. Really?

Dear Lord, man... "Horrors"...

I hate to be that guy but damn

How will Diana Prince ever escape from the web of such malignant machinations?

I mean, BRUH. You got me there lol.

I can't really argue with that logic, I hope someone in the comic books puts Lex Luthor and Ras a'ghul on notice they've got some serious competition at the next legion of doom/league of assassins event.

She's a bruiser. Maybe shes more, maybe she could run a company or country or a cult but from the outside from every appearance outside of the Wonder Woman books which is kind of what matters here. She's little better than Wonder Woman equivalent sabertooth if shes MORE than that level of thought then I'll gladly read the issue

Well, what do you expect from a 40's comic? You think Luthor had better villainous plans in this time period? You are correct that she's essentially a female Sabertooth outside of the WW books, but how is that the character's fault?

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, what do you expect from a 40's comic? You think Luthor had better villainous plans in this time period? You are correct that she's essentially a female Sabertooth outside of the WW books, but how is that the character's fault?

Agreed, and I think it actually matters less how she is outside of the WW books. I think she should be represented well overall, but the actual WW book and related content is really what matters. We need less of the franchises creeping into each other and being disruptive (big event crossovers through different franchises are often dumb/shitty).

And would we want any WW villain to be more like the Joker? He sucks now. His goofier, more benign plots from the 50s seem more appealing at this point. Though the Bronze age Joker would be the sweet spot, instead of the one note giggling slasher villain he's become. Also, Lex's best crime is stealing the 40 cakes

[Jackalope89]

Hercules redeemed himself for that and was forgiven by the Amazons all the way back in Perez' run (though some writers tried making him a villain again several times). Warkiller was created by Zeus along with an all-male race of Gargareans who were supposed to replace the Amazons, so he's literally a male version of Wonder Woman. I don't think he was particularly well received though, since he never appeared in her comic outside of Simone's run.

Fair enough on Warkiller.

For Hercules; thanks for letting me know he was forgiven and everything. That said, I don't know about him being such a direct counterpart to Diana. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he was turned into a good guy, but having one of the most well known mythological characters be an immediate counterpart feels a little too hamfisted. Warkiller is at least a counterpart in a more original way (though it seems he suffered from the same thing that Diana's brother did, poor execution).

[Psy-lock]

Agreed, and I think it actually matters less how she is outside of the WW books.

As long as she's not getting one-punched by the likes of Batman and Catwoman, cause that was ridiculous. WW could really use an animated show on the level of B:TAS to give her villains better rep and more public awareness. Honestly, most Batman villains and Batman himself in that show are far superior to the current comic versions

[SiegePerilous02]

As long as she's not getting one-punched by the likes of Batman and Catwoman, cause that was ridiculous. WW could really use an animated show on the level of B:TAS to give her villains better rep and more public awareness. Honestly, most Batman villains and Batman himself in that show are far superior to the current comic versions

Yeah, Batman's villains for the most part would be nothing without stuff like BTAS or the Adam West show. And that's not a knock, I love Batman and his villains. But all of this builds on each other, and most of the time the actual comics are hardly that great. But Batman gets MUCH more comics, so the good-to-bad ratio is different than Wonder Woman. it's very simple math, the more comics the more odds are that at least some of them will be good.

Wonder Woman and her world don't have the movies, tv shows, cartoons and video games her characters need to thrive. Not yet anyway. That's how Batman, Spider-Man and (to a lesser extent at this point) Superman are at the top. The actual comics may be a lost cause, but comics are increasingly becoming less of a lucrative avenue for these IPs.

[9th.]

She needs more readers period

[SiegePerilous02]

Comics in general need more readers period.

What makes Wonder Woman great is how subversive, feminine and queer she is, qualities that aren't always appealing to the insular audience that consumes the comics published by the Big Two. To cater more to that audience runs the risk of turning Wonder Woman and her characters into something they are not in order to appeal to them, in which case it can be argued that that's not a real success.

For example, the Amazons in the Azzarello run.

[Midnight_v]

Comics in general need more readers period.

What makes Wonder Woman great is how subversive, feminine and queer she is, qualities that aren't always appealing to the insular audience that consumes the comics published by the Big Two. To cater more to that audience runs the risk of turning Wonder Woman and her characters into something they are not in order to appeal to them, in which case it can be argued that that's not a real success.

For example, the Amazons in the Azzarello run.

Sounds like... an acute fear of change is locked in that statement.
I was curious as to why such resistance from people who seem to be Wonder Woman fans popped up in a discussion about attracting more readers that led to getting more and better villians and other key issues.

It's like the in line with all the other people who didn't want changes made to their favorite characters the last X years or so.

Personally, I find the idea that broadening the readership of a book... would be something that brings with it the risk of contaminating that books purity or insularity of fanbase to be really... dubious.
The argument youre putting forth is pretty abhorrent, and I only use that word to keep it civil, because its worse than that in practice.

Gatekeeping... I mean I was engaging with the previous post you wrote when I saw this and I realize this is why the Ops suggestion is controversial. Some number of fans are stark terrified of losing their toys.
Evevn if theyre not the best toys, they own them why risk them.

Been hearing that same argument from every selfish fanboy for years... You want more readers but only the "right kind" of readers and that type of regressive selfish thought is a ship will always sink because it inhibits the rise and growth of a book.

Oh well *shrug* pretty goodnthread op. I hadn't really sat down ans thought about Wonder Woman in a while... though I did like her and Constantines little escapade over in wildstorm.
Good luck! Good readers!

[SiegePerilous02]

Sounds like... an acute fear of change is locked in that statement.
I was curious as to why such resistance from people who seem to be Wonder Woman fans popped up in a discussion about attracting more readers that led to getting more and better villians and other key issues.

It's like the in line with all the other people who didn't want changes made to their favorite characters the last X years or so.

Personally, I find the idea that broadening the readership of a book... would be something that brings with it the risk of contaminating that books purity or insularity of fanbase to be really... dubious.
The argument youre putting forth is pretty abhorrent, and I only use that word to keep it civil, because its worse than that in practice.

Gatekeeping... I mean I was engaging with the previous post you wrote when I saw this and I realize this is why the Ops suggestion is controversial. Some number of fans are stark terrified of losing their toys.
Evevn if theyre not the best toys, they own them why risk them.

Been hearing that same argument from every selfish fanboy for years... You want more readers but only the "right kind" of readers and that type of regressive selfish thought is a ship will always sink because it inhibits the rise and growth of a book.

Oh well *shrug* pretty goodnthread op. I hadn't really sat down ans thought about Wonder Woman in a while... though I did like her and Constantines little escapade over in wildstorm.
Good luck! Good readers!

We have an example of a shake up for Wonder Woman bringing her more in line with other comics franchises to appeal to a wider fanbase, and it involved stripping away a lot of the things that made her unique. Her mother and her people were pushed into the background and cast as villains, their sympathetic background and motivation ignored in favor of displaying how they victimized the outside world. Their advancements and technologies rebooted away. The Amazons being chosen as heroes going all the way back to Marston's days was to subvert the sexist Greek myths, and this just undid that thought process and went for the more typical depiction of them. An idea in the 1940s was more progressive than one in 2011.

Zeus was inserted into an origin of female empowerment and sisterhood. She is the mightiest female hero in the world, and she owes it to her lineage to Zeus. In the words of the actual author of the run, she was "fixed" by defining her by her association with a man.

It's not as if other shake ups or new additions to the mythos to attract new readers in other franchises doesn't work. It frequently works for Batman, and while it's controversial, it's working for the X-Men currently. Thing is, they usually respect the core traits of the character and mythos. With Wonder Woman, it frequently seems that suddenly the core themes aren't good enough and they need to be "fixed" to align with other properties. As pretty much the only major solo female superhero the Big Two have with a long history of sustaining her own property, she is already rare and unique. Why are you surprised that fans of that uniqueness are protective of her when they've been burned repeatedly in the past, especially by those recently in charge (Amazons Attack, anyone?)? Her story, themes and villains are successful in the movie so it's not as if the concepts are broken.