Controversial Statement: Wonderwoman needs more male readers.

[phantom1592]

I think what she really needs is better written villains. Her Rogues Gallery is fine, they just need a writer who actually cares to develop them. Cheetah can be a great foil for Wonder Woman when utilized well. Same for Ares, Circe, Dr Psycho, Veronica Cale...There's so much potential for Dr Cyber to be a great villain in the age of technology, Queen Clea can be a shared villain between WW and Aquaman. Almost every obscure WW villain has potential to be great if the writers give them a chance.

I actually think it'd be cool to see Geoff Johns have a go at this. He did some amazing stuff revitalizing Flash's Rogues...

That doesn't even make sense. There's no evidence that people will care more about a character if they appear on a team book. Batman being so big is not because of Justice League membership, but he has got memorable runs under his belt most recently Snyder and Morrison. You need to have great runs like these for the character to attract reader. And WW hasn't had a great run in more than 15 years.

If anything the fact that her movie succeeded shows the problem isn't with the character, but rather her publishing woes are more tied in with the editorial leadership at DC who don't understand the character and the book. The fact that DC thought Amazons Attack was a good idea shows the leadership is absolutely at fault.

I disagree. There are a LOT of characters out there like Vixen and Blue Beetle and Elongated man/Sue Dibny and pretty much every X-Men ever... who 90% of their fans latched on to them in a Team book. Team books are a tried and true method of introducing new readers to a character... and if they become popular enough they drift off to their solo books.

As for Editorial, That's a strawman. It says that DC editorial has sucked with Wonder Woman... almost FOREVER. Perez had a good push post-crisis, but WW has been struggling since before they took her powers away in 70's.. Editorial comes and goes, but WW's problems remain.

Sounds like... an acute fear of change is locked in that statement.
I was curious as to why such resistance from people who seem to be Wonder Woman fans popped up in a discussion about attracting more readers that led to getting more and better villians and other key issues.

It's like the in line with all the other people who didn't want changes made to their favorite characters the last X years or so.

Personally, I find the idea that broadening the readership of a book... would be something that brings with it the risk of contaminating that books purity or insularity of fanbase to be really... dubious.
The argument youre putting forth is pretty abhorrent, and I only use that word to keep it civil, because its worse than that in practice.

Gatekeeping... I mean I was engaging with the previous post you wrote when I saw this and I realize this is why the Ops suggestion is controversial. Some number of fans are stark terrified of losing their toys.
Evevn if theyre not the best toys, they own them why risk them.

Been hearing that same argument from every selfish fanboy for years... You want more readers but only the "right kind" of readers and that type of regressive selfish thought is a ship will always sink because it inhibits the rise and growth of a book.

Oh well *shrug* pretty goodnthread op. I hadn't really sat down ans thought about Wonder Woman in a while... though I did like her and Constantines little escapade over in wildstorm.
Good luck! Good readers!

I can completely understand it. I don't agree with what he considers to be 'important traits'... but I can understand change ruining a character. I've been a fan of Blade the Vampire Hunter from the 90's and backtracked to his original Tomb of Dracula appearances and LOVE that character. The 'Daywalker' half-vampire, slow aging, super powered character we have since the movies.... is garbage. I absolutely hate everything they've done to Blade... all in the interest of making him more 'mainstream'. Darkhawk, Daredevil and Green Lantern have all been drug though the mud to the point that I read VERY few actual comics anymore. So yeah, changing something I like just to attract people that honestly DON'T LIKE the core character?? I'm can understand people being reluctant. The key I guess is what is 'core character' and what is 'extra frivolous crap' that can be played with

There was also Amazons Attack, but that one was so bad, I guess everyone likes to pretend it never happened.

Perfect example actually. Amazon's Attack was a self contained mini involving the Amazons going to war and invading Washington DC (If I remember correctly)…. I did not read that book... and yet nobody anywhere ever mentioned that attack. Something like that should have MAJOR reprecusions… or at least a passing comment about in SOME other books. I didn't read it... I didn't miss it... the rest of the universe never referenced it...

it reminds me of when Morrison had Magneto attack and devastate New York City.... where 89% of all marvel heroes operate, but not a single ripple in other books.

[SiegePerilous02]

I actually think it'd be cool to see Geoff Johns have a go at this. He did some amazing stuff revitalizing Flash's Rogues...

I don't have too much confidence in Johns. He can be great on certain properties, but he's spotty at best with the Trinity and WW in particular. His Cheetah sucked and his Diana sucked most of the time.

As for Editorial, That's a strawman. It says that DC editorial has sucked with Wonder Woman... almost FOREVER. Perez had a good push post-crisis, but WW has been struggling since before they took her powers away in 70's.. Editorial comes and goes, but WW's problems remain.

I think it's WW herself that poses a problem for those in charge, and it's not really a "problem" on her part as a creation. It's just that they are ill equipped to deal with her. The vast majority of the mainstream properties from Marvel and DC were either created or reached their iconic statuses in the Silver Age. It's not surprising that the only solo female superhero wasn't thriving in the 1950s/60s while everyone else was. You have to go back to the Golden Age for her best old school stuff.

And it's not like things are ever consistently great for female, POC, LGBTQ, etc. characters in the Big Two. Wonder Woman DOES have successful and high selling runs (relative to their respective period) that embrace her uniqueness and themes. Marston, then Perez, arguably both of Rucka's, etc. Plus the movie. So it's not like she's never been successful for who she is.

Perfect example actually. Amazon's Attack was a self contained mini involving the Amazons going to war and invading Washington DC (If I remember correctly)…. I did not read that book... and yet nobody anywhere ever mentioned that attack. Something like that should have MAJOR reprecusions… or at least a passing comment about in SOME other books. I didn't read it... I didn't miss it... the rest of the universe never referenced it...

it reminds me of when Morrison had Magneto attack and devastate New York City.... where 89% of all marvel heroes operate, but not a single ripple in other books.

Not referecing Amazons Attack in other titles is pretty much a blessing. But it did still **** up the WW book for a while, to the point that a reboot was almost a relief...

And then we got Azzarello's Death by Snu Snu Amazons

[Vampire Savior]

Similar to Samus Aran from Metroid, I'd wager that most of Wonder Woman's fans are males, which actually might be part of her problem. With Samus, her being a woman usually hardly matters aside from the historical significance, but with Wonder Woman, it's like 75% of her whole deal. She's a female character that isn't necessarily marketed to females and isn't particularly marketed to males. Like, Sailor Moon is a female hero marketed to females with a large female fanbase, but Wonder Woman isn't written in a way to necessarily attract women, for better or worse, and really hasn't been as far as I've seen. I actually don't know who she is supposed to attract. It seems to me she's kind of like that girl character on a boy's action kids show who is supposed to appeal to that type of girl who likes boys action but is a girl. Like Roll on the 90s Mega Man cartoon, or Teela from He-Man. You'll notice those characters tend to often be in the background, and Wonder Woman is kind of like that. They're there, and they usually get to do stuff, but they're still off to the side some. But it's like you have a girl hero whose main deal is that she's a woman as the the star of a BOY'S action deal. I won't say that can't or doesn't work, but I can see how it can be kind of murky territory.

[SiegePerilous02]

Similar to Samus Aran from Metroid, I'd wager that most of Wonder Woman's fans are males, which actually might be part of her problem. With Samus, her being a woman usually hardly matters aside from the historical significance, but with Wonder Woman, it's like 75% of her whole deal. She's a female character that isn't necessarily marketed to females and isn't particularly marketed to males. Like, Sailor Moon is a female hero marketed to females with a large female fanbase, but Wonder Woman isn't written in a way to necessarily attract women, for better or worse, and really hasn't been as far as I've seen. I actually don't know who she is supposed to attract. It seems to me she's kind of like that girl character on a boy's action kids show who is supposed to appeal to that type of girl who likes boys action but is a girl. Like Roll on the 90s Mega Man cartoon, or Teela from He-Man. You'll notice those characters tend to often be in the background, and Wonder Woman is kind of like that. They're there, and they usually get to do stuff, but they're still off to the side some. But it's like you have a girl hero whose main deal is that she's a woman as the the star of a BOY'S action deal. I won't say that can't or doesn't work, but I can see how it can be kind of murky territory.

The frustrating thing is that there is plenty of stuff in WW that is similar to Sailor Moon and can be marketed in similar ways. Female heroes, female allies, Steve is honestly more useful than Tuxedo Mark lol, female villains.

Market her to the same people as Sailor Moon or She-Ra. ****, Catra is already basically Cheetah, Queen Beryl is like Circe, etc

[Vampire Savior]

The frustrating thing is that there is plenty of stuff in WW that is similar to Sailor Moon and can be marketed in similar ways. Female heroes, female allies, Steve is honestly more useful than Tuxedo Mark lol, female villains.

Market her to the same people as Sailor Moon or She-Ra. ****, Catra is already basically Cheetah, Queen Beryl is like Circe, etc

I daresay that the problem might be that she has so often been written by men, and men who do not approach her in a way to market her to women and girls, and perhaps even men who CANNOT successfully do that. These men just write another "boy's action" type of thing. Except starring a woman whose theme is largely about being a woman.

This isn't to say that throwing any ol' woman on the Wonder Woman book would fix everything.

[SiegePerilous02]

I daresay that the problem might be that she has so often been written by men, and men who do not approach her in a way to market her to women and girls, and perhaps even men who CANNOT successfully do that. These men just write another "boy's action" type of thing. Except starring a woman whose theme is largely about being a woman.

This isn't to say that throwing any ol' woman on the Wonder Woman book would fix everything.

Yeah, I agree that a female author isn't an automatic fix. The last few attempts (Wilson, Fontana, Finch) weren't exactly high points. There were perhaps some things that were out of their hands that hampered their runs, but not everything can be blamed on that. Meanwhile, you get men like Rucka, Perez or Jimenez who actually know what they are doing, but they are a rarity. And on the other hand, she was created by a man but it's speculated that his wives had some input in her creation and his secretary ghost wrote a lot of the Golden Age WW scripts.

Even though Sailor Moon became a bigger franchise with a lot of input and control by male creators, its foundation was laid Naoko Takeuchi. And its speculated that at least some things like Sailor Moon's tiara throw were inspired by Wonder Woman. Meanwhile, She-Ra is doing pretty well for herself in a Netflix cartoon being helmed by Noelle Stevenson. Screw the comics, give Wonder Woman an animated series that embraces femininity and makes it cool, like she was created to be and like other creations have found success doing. Her supporting cast and villains were created to thrive in such a narrative. It doesn't matter the gender or sexuality of the lead creator(s) as long as they are in tune with the core themes, but multiple viewpoints would be welcome and we could hopefully get her equivalent of BTAS or Spectacular Spider-Man for her and her mythos.

[Ulysses]

I am am man. I don't read Wonder Woman because the book sucks. I read Woman Woman: Dead Earth because it's awesome.

[Midnight_v]

I am am man. I don't read Wonder Woman because the book sucks. I read Woman Woman: Dead Earth because it's awesome.

I've been waiting for someone to say something to this effect of a series, I even asked what elseworlds she even had. Thanks I'll check it out.

[Psy-lock]

I've been waiting for someone to say something to this effect of a series, I even asked what elseworlds she even had.

Earth One, The True Amazon, Legend of Wonder Woman, Amazonia. There's also the upcoming Historia.

[BruceWayneJr.]

Perfect example actually. Amazon's Attack was a self contained mini involving the Amazons going to war and invading Washington DC (If I remember correctly)…. I did not read that book... and yet nobody anywhere ever mentioned that attack. Something like that should have MAJOR reprecusions… or at least a passing comment about in SOME other books. I didn't read it... I didn't miss it... the rest of the universe never referenced it...

it reminds me of when Morrison had Magneto attack and devastate New York City.... where 89% of all marvel heroes operate, but not a single ripple in other books.

Not to defend Amazons Attack, but it did have tie-ins with Catwoman, Teen Titans and Supergirl at the time. No references to the event afterwards makes sense considering how unpopular it was.

[WonderNight]

I daresay that the problem might be that she has so often been written by men, and men who do not approach her in a way to market her to women and girls, and perhaps even men who CANNOT successfully do that. These men just write another "boy's action" type of thing. Except starring a woman whose theme is largely about being a woman.

This isn't to say that throwing any ol' woman on the Wonder Woman book would fix everything.

it not a problem. DC knows that the most of there fans are Male, wonder woman is written for that market. Wonder woman for girls is branding. Just like robin is for kids but most people who will read a Robin solo are in their 20s,30s,40s its branding but the reader are (mostly) adult males.

[Gotham citizen]

I daresay that the problem might be that she has so often been written by men, and men who do not approach her in a way to market her to women and girls, and perhaps even men who CANNOT successfully do that. These men just write another "boy's action" type of thing. Except starring a woman whose theme is largely about being a woman.

This isn't to say that throwing any ol' woman on the Wonder Woman book would fix everything.

Most of the greatest women of the Marvel Universe (Storm, Jean Grey, Psylocke, Rogue, Emma Frost, Susan Storm…) are became great thank to the men who have created and written them. A character doesn't need a writer of the same sex, race, sexuality to be great, he needs a writer able to write him well.
Moreover the female readers tend not to like the superhero comics, so are we sure that choose a writer for his sex and aim the title to those people who don't like that kind of genre, is the right thing to do?

[achilles]

Not to defend Amazons Attack, but it did have tie-ins with Catwoman, Teen Titans and Supergirl at the time. No references to the event afterwards makes sense considering how unpopular it was.

Good, it can't be defended. It was a crime against the comic book reading public. It must have wiped out thousands of brain cells in anyone who read it. Which you can tell from reading this post; before I read AA, I was actually quite eloquent, now look at me! Also, I now can't look at Batman without thinking back to that and inappropriately bursting into laughter. How sad; I wonder if I have a claim against DC for putting out that harmful, defective product?

Seriously, I don't know what they were aiming for with that thing, except maybe the comic book version of the Razzies. I also think that DC is hoping that people forget that ever happened. Which IMO is why you don't see much reference in universe to it.

As to the OP, I think that the presence of so many males in this thread who obviously have read or are currently reading Wonder Woman at least suggests that Wondy does have herself plenty of male readers.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Dr. Cyber needs a new super-villain name, that really hurts her IMO.

[Jim Kelly]

The problem is with the market not the character. Wonder Woman is the kind of character that appeals to a general audience. But comics--especially the DC super-hero titles--are not for a general audience. The niche market that DC is selling to is male and males who want a certain kind of fantasy. Instead of trying to find another market for Wonder Woman, DC has tried to change Wonder Woman to make her more appealing to their niche readers. Wonder Woman would do much better if she was in books that were sold in other venues or on other platforms. But because she's in the super-hero comic book ghetto, there are not enough readers that appreciate what she has to offer.

There are female readers--and women probably read more than men (not that I've done a study, it's just a gut feeling)--so if Wonder Woman could get out of her ghetto, she'd find a lot more readers. But DC is in the male super-hero comics business these days and they look for their readers where it's easiest to find them, in comic shops. Women do read comics, too, but they often look for comics that aren't in the super-hero genre.

It's fortunate for Wonder Woman that she doesn't need to survive on the bread of comic books alone, but by the goods of merchandise and other media. I just wish the comics would stop trying to change her, since that male-oriented version of the character bleeds into the other products. It would have been much better if the rights to William Moulton Marston's creation had been taken away from DC in the 1940s--maybe to be developed in women's magazine or in chapter books for children.