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  1. #2806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rnap22 View Post
    It’s her sword. I’m telling you. I’m fairly certain Warlock would have stayed quiet the entire event if this was normal. I hate it for sure.
    Well, let's hope so.

    So you're saying if her sword is broken, her 'spell' over Doug will be broken as well?

  2. #2807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Being able to read someone's body language should be useless if Cypher isn't fast or strong enough to match his opponents. Is like Karnak, he can see the flaw in everything and is a great fighter, but he should not be able to knock down Hulk or Thor just because he knows that Thor broke his arm when he was a child or that Hulk have a weak jaw.
    It's true that reading the body language of someone isn't useful if you can't react quick enough but to say that Cypher is useless is an insult.

    He's able to crack the security of computer systems, detect architecturally flaws, talk to robots, understand animal language, talk to aliens, weave magic spell so that's hardly considered useless.

    Only Zeb Wells has used his full potential.

  3. #2808
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericng View Post
    It's true that reading the body language of someone isn't useful if you can't react quick enough but to say that Cypher is useless is an insult.

    He's able to crack the security of computer systems, detect architecturally flaws, talk to robots, understand animal language, talk to aliens, weave magic spell so that's hardly considered useless.

    Only Zeb Wells has used his full potential.
    Again, most of those things are to do with esoteric knowledge rather than language skills. I know a few programming languages, that doesn't make me magically able to compromise the security of any system. Being able to read architectural diagrams doesn't mean you can easily see weak points. I expect there's a bit of a gap between knowing arcane words and actually being Sorceror Supreme and casting lightning bolts out of your arse.

    If only there were a mutant whose power was to absorb the knowledge of people he's near to do stuff like this. Maybe someone who's already in the organisation.

  4. #2809
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Ever since HoX/PoX, there really hasn't been any convincing evidence that Hickman doesn't understand this. Just that he's not using the favorites people subjectively think he should.
    Gotta vehemently disagree with you on that point. The evidence shows the exact opposite. Just as one example (I can think of plenty more) look at who Hickman used to go on the raid to the Orchis Forge in HoX/PoX: Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Archangel, M, Husk, Jean Grey, and Mystique. They're going on a mission into space, specifically near the sun. Wouldn't the smart selection have been mutants whose powers allow them to survive in space or who use the sun as their primary power source, meaning they likely would get stronger the closer they got to it? Just think how much higher the odds of success would've been if they'd brought along Darwin, Vulcan, Sunfire or Sunspot, or any other mutant with sun or star in their name. By the same reasoning, the characters used in X-Force and the Marauders make no sense either.
    Last edited by LogosPundit; 11-30-2020 at 05:35 PM.

  5. #2810
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogosPundit View Post
    Gotta vehemently disagree with you on that point. The evidence shows the exact opposite. Just as one example (I can think of plenty more) look at who Hickman used to go on the raid to the Orchis Forge in HoX/PoX: Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Archangel, M, Husk, Jean Grey, and Mystique. They're going on a mission into space, specifically near the sun. Wouldn't the smart selection have been mutants whose powers allow them to survive in space or who use the sun as their primary power source, meaning they likely would get stronger the closer they got to it? Just think how much higher the odds of success would've been if they'd brought along Darwin, Vulcan, Sunfire or Sunspot, or any other mutant with sun or star in their name. By the same reasoning, the characters used in X-Force and the Marauders make no sense either.
    Nah, that still comes across as "he's not writing what I want and using who I want."

    Especially with the number of mutants that this franchise has, any scenario most writers can come up with would be drained of tension since there is probably a mutant that can solve the problem in an instant. Suspension of disbelief is required and we don't need a throw away line for every mutant not being on a mission because it would just be pointless fluff.

  6. #2811

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    Hickman just wanted a team of fan favorites to kill, so he could show off his resurrection protocols. There would be a million different scenarios to take out Mothermold with more efficiency, but that wasn't the author's intent.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  7. #2812
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Nah, that still comes across as "he's not writing what I want and using who I want."

    Especially with the number of mutants that this franchise has, any scenario most writers can come up with would be drained of tension since there is probably a mutant that can solve the problem in an instant. Suspension of disbelief is required and we don't need a throw away line for every mutant not being on a mission because it would just be pointless fluff.
    Suspension of disbelief is about ignoring things you know to be impossible, like someone having superpowers. What you're talking about is the suspension of logic; that's just plain bad storytelling. It's not the audience's fault that Hickman and the X-office opened the doors to the availability of having every mutant who's ever to solve every problem the X-Men might encounter. It's their responsibility to find a way to use the situation they've deliberately created in a manner that's consistent with the characters while maintaining story tension. Every other writer in the past has had to do the same, and many of them succeeded. No one who knows anything about Cyclops would believe that he would sacrifice a mission's probability of success just because he feels like bringing along whoever the writer feels like writing about on that day. On the contrary, rather than draining tension and the actual "pointless fluff" we were just forced to suffer through in X of Swords (exactly how many of those Arakko vs. Krakoa contests did we really need to read?), coming up with ways to use every mutant in the X-Men franchise would open up all kinds of fascinating story possibilities. We need look no further for proof of this idea than the recent combination of the powers of Magneto, Magma, and Iceman in the pages of X-Men #11. So far, I'd say that was the best issue to come out of all of Dawn of X.

  8. #2813
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogosPundit View Post
    Suspension of disbelief is about ignoring things you know to be impossible, like someone having superpowers. What you're talking about is the suspension of logic; that's just plain bad storytelling. It's not the audience's fault that Hickman and the X-office opened the doors to the availability of having every mutant who's ever to solve every problem the X-Men might encounter. It's their responsibility to find a way to use the situation they've deliberately created in a manner that's consistent with the characters while maintaining story tension. Every other writer in the past has had to do the same, and many of them succeeded. No one who knows anything about Cyclops would believe that he would sacrifice a mission's probability of success just because he feels like bringing along whoever the writer feels like writing about on that day. On the contrary, rather than draining tension and the actual "pointless fluff" we were just forced to suffer through in X of Swords (exactly how many of those Arakko vs. Krakoa contests did we really need to read?), coming up with ways to use every mutant in the X-Men franchise would open up all kinds of fascinating story possibilities. We need look no further for proof of this idea than the recent combination of the powers of Magneto, Magma, and Iceman in the pages of X-Men #11. So far, I'd say that was the best issue to come out of all of Dawn of X.
    Even if they've provided a means for every mutant to come back, it's still chiefly on the fans for having the expectation that every single Mutant no matter how obscure will have a part to play or that the writers should be able to please every single member of the fanbase. Which is just not a realistic expectation to have as it's not possible. So it kind of is the audience's fault.

    Because as a jumping on point to bring in lapsed/casual readers or new fans, it was overall a success for most readers. "My favorite z-lister not being included in this story despite being the logical choice" is actually not a very logical criticism to lob at the writers. For most readers, Darwin or Sunfire not being on the mission isn't a story breaker because we simply are not sparing them a thought anyway. Why should we regard it as a unenjoyable reading experience because others don't?

  9. #2814
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    I fxxxin called it. The xmen said eff that noise and curbstomped arrako lol

  10. #2815
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogosPundit View Post
    Gotta vehemently disagree with you on that point. The evidence shows the exact opposite. Just as one example (I can think of plenty more) look at who Hickman used to go on the raid to the Orchis Forge in HoX/PoX: Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Archangel, M, Husk, Jean Grey, and Mystique. They're going on a mission into space, specifically near the sun. Wouldn't the smart selection have been mutants whose powers allow them to survive in space or who use the sun as their primary power source, meaning they likely would get stronger the closer they got to it? Just think how much higher the odds of success would've been if they'd brought along Darwin, Vulcan, Sunfire or Sunspot, or any other mutant with sun or star in their name. By the same reasoning, the characters used in X-Force and the Marauders make no sense either.
    In the book the mission was meant to be a get in/get out with minimal casualties. The team he sent (Hickman), all excel in those type of scenarios. If you wanted to wipe out the station and kill everyone just send Magneto and have him throw the whole thing into the sun. There was definitely logic present there. This doesn’t even take into account that Mystique had a “side quest” as X and Mags are manipulating her and she them about bringing Destiny back. Her presence on the mission was needed for future plot lines. Someone already mentioned it but seeing the scene play out with Kurt and Logan holds way more emotional weight than seeing that same scene play out with Sunfire and Vulcan.
    You brought back Wolverine

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  11. #2816
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    In the book the mission was meant to be a get in/get out with minimal casualties. The team he sent (Hickman), all excel in those type of scenarios. If you wanted to wipe out the station and kill everyone just send Magneto and have him throw the whole thing into the sun. There was definitely logic present there. This doesn’t even take into account that Mystique had a “side quest” as X and Mags are manipulating her and she them about bringing Destiny back. Her presence on the mission was needed for future plot lines. Someone already mentioned it but seeing the scene play out with Kurt and Logan holds way more emotional weight than seeing that same scene play out with Sunfire and Vulcan.
    IDA. It made no sense to have Angel and Husk on that mission. How is Angel good for a stealth mission on a space station where he has limited room to fly? Husk herself doesnt have the experience for such a high profile mission and there were better options than her. Ironically, both were the first to die on the mission, so maybe that was the point for why Hickman chose to have them there even if it didnt make narrative sense

  12. #2817
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    It was treated like a suicide mission from the get-go, with all of them being doomed if it failed. Treating it like a get in/out situation at all was bizarre. I don't know. When you bring back literally everyone, have them all living in the same place and (ostensibly) working towards the same goal, I think its fair criticism to ask why such-and-such character with skills perfect for whatever problem going on isn't involved. Its why most stories have much smaller casts.

  13. #2818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    IDA. It made no sense to have Angel and Husk on that mission. How is Angel good for a stealth mission on a space station where he has limited room to fly? Husk herself doesnt have the experience for such a high profile mission and there were better options than her. Ironically, both were the first to die on the mission, so maybe that was the point for why Hickman chose to have them there even if it didnt make narrative sense
    Well it wasn’t a stealth mission as that went out the window when the station noticed the Shi’Ar space craft the team was traveling in it was a get in/get out as fast as possible mission which isn’t really the same, I’d have to double check but I don’t think they ever actually planned it to be stealth either. I will agree that Husk is an odd choice but my thought on her is she can basically become bullet proof if needed. Archangel would have room to fly as the space station was extremely massive, but even if he’s limited in flight he is a capable fighter. The rest of the teams power sets don’t really need clarification I suppose as they really do excel in combat. My main point is that the team was well suited for the mission especially knowing what was at stake and that they could be brought back if and when the ultimate sacrifice was needed.
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  14. #2819
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    It was treated like a suicide mission from the get-go, with all of them being doomed if it failed. Treating it like a get in/out situation at all was bizarre. I don't know. When you bring back literally everyone, have them all living in the same place and (ostensibly) working towards the same goal, I think its fair criticism to ask why such-and-such character with skills perfect for whatever problem going on isn't involved. Its why most stories have much smaller casts.
    They did talk extensively about the possibility of it being a one way trip. It wouldn’t have made any narrative sense to treat it as if there was no possibility of returning at all. Firstly nobody wants to actually die on the mission but they all know that there is a high chance of it happening, secondly we didn’t know about the resurrection protocols yet so as a reader that would have been highly suspect. Even after we have seen the resurrection protocols characters still don’t want to die (I’m talking about characters with their powers) and have actively fought hard not to die despite the process. Best examples of this are Storm with her beating the TO virus and Quentin stating he doesn’t want to die anymore.
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  15. #2820
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    The story also implies that apart from Mystique who was forced to go, the team is made of people who agreed to Scott's conditions so other people probably told him to piss off.
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