Atheism and irreligion thread

[TriggerWarning]

But then I see the beautiful world we live in like nature and the sun and the stars and I feel so much awe. Also, everytime I'm in trouble or very worried, I think of God and ask him to help me on this one haha. I just can't be an atheist. I have an strong need for God. Humans in general have always looked for someone greater to save them. Look at history and ancient history as well. It's an strong emotional need many have had.

Anytime someone says something to the effect of look at the beauty of nature to know that God exists I just like to point out that children's cancer wards also exist therefore there is either no god or he is a bastard. I believe the former.

[Celgress]

sometimes I question if there is indeed a God almighty. I see so much hate and violence in the world and innocent children suffering and I wonder why God doesn't end it. Makes no sense. Christians tell you is God's plan for a reason.. or men are sinners. Seems convenient and arrogant to think we have all the answers.

But then I see the beautiful world we live in like nature and the sun and the stars and I feel so much awe. Also, everytime I'm in trouble or very worried, I think of God and ask him to help me on this one haha. I just can't be an atheist. I have an strong need for God.

The answer (if there is one) as I understand it -

God gives us free will to make our own mistakes so we can grow and improve ourselves with the ultimate goal of obtaining enlightenment. God and God's representatives could interfere all the time if they want but don't. Without free will, there is no hatred but there is also no love. While God wants people to be happy God also does not want us to be mindless puppets under direct control.

I can't explain why there is so much suffering in this world other than to reiterate that God and God's representatives (the lesser gods if you will) prefer not to interfere directly whenever possible least they make things worse on a grand scale (once again owing in part to free will). For example, if you give someone everything they'll become dependent upon you thus not improving their own person or persons.

This is how I understand such matters, but it's my view of things nothing more.

[Kirby101]

The answer (if there is one) as I understand it -

God gives us free will to make our own mistakes so we can grow and improve ourselves with the ultimate goal of obtaining enlightenment. God and God's representatives could interfere all the time if they want but don't. Without free will, there is no hatred but there is also no love. While God wants people to be happy God also does not want us to be mindless puppets under direct control.

I can't explain why there is so much suffering in this world other than to reiterate that God and God's representatives (the lesser gods if you will) prefer not to interfere directly whenever possible least they make things worse on a grand scale (once again owing in part to free will). For example, if you give someone everything they'll become dependent upon you thus not improving their own person or persons.

This is how I understand such matters, but it's my view of things nothing more.

The problem with this is; first, it is an open question whether humans have free will, based on neuroscience, we may not. Of course the very definition of free will is up for debate. The second problem is God allows free will so we make our own mistakes and decisions. So God thought Hitler' free will was more important than the free will of 6 million Jews. Because i am very sure they did not decide to die in concentration camps.

[Kirby101]

sometimes I question if there is indeed a God almighty. I see so much hate and violence in the world and innocent children suffering and I wonder why God doesn't end it. Makes no sense. Christians tell you is God's plan for a reason.. or men are sinners. Seems convenient and arrogant to think we have all the answers.

But then I see the beautiful world we live in like nature and the sun and the stars and I feel so much awe. Also, everytime I'm in trouble or very worried, I think of God and ask him to help me on this one haha. I just can't be an atheist. I have an strong need for God. Humans in general have always looked for someone greater to save them. Look at history and ancient history as well. It's an strong emotional need many have had.

But you have just answered your own question. It is a strong, emotional need, even an evolutionary instinct. So knowing we are presupposed to seek a God in the randomness of nature (both the beauty and harshness of it) doesn't that tell you that God is a human construct to fill a hole in out subconscious.

[Celgress]

The problem with this is; first, it is an open question whether humans have free will, based on neuroscience, we may not. Of course the very definition of free will is up for debate. The second problem is God allows free will so we make our own mistakes and decisions. So God thought Hitler' free will was more important than the free will of 6 million Jews. Because i am very sure they did not decide to die in concentration camps.

Well, it is what it is. I don't profess to have all the answers, I seriously doubt anyone has them.

I doubt anyone who was ever been murdered wanted to die or who died in war wanted to die. I think the Gods don't step in because by doing so people would expect them to protect them every day.

Regarding Hitler, as I once told a diehard Christian if he didn't believe Jesus could redeem Hitler's sins if Hitler genuinely repented at the last minute then he should find another faith. My friend was appalled but I explained it as such - If Jesus can redeem all people who ever live (or will live) than he must theoretically be able to redeem Hitler from Hitler's sins, otherwise he can't redeem anyone because Hitler's sins are greater than Jesus' redemptive ability.

I'll admit this is me in a nutshell (sometimes), but I usually can't.

s-l1000.jpg

[Moon Ronin]

I think a majority of people that do "believe" is more to do with something on the line of Pascal's wager. I like Pascal, most likely the best example of an agnostic theist (I'm more on the agnostic atheist side)but anyway. Pascal's thinking is that if there is a God and if he is indeed infinitely incomprehensible then he has no affinity to us. That would mean that "God" is beyond our understanding and any evidence pertaining to him would be equally beyond or grasp of understanding. With that man is incapable of knowing either He is or if He is not. He came to the conclusion that reason can not be used it create a certainty. So his wager is that it is safer to believe in God even it there is no proof that one exist than not to and spend eternity in whatever. But then you have to go with Homer (Simpson) and the line of thinking that suppose we've chosen the wrong god and he get madder and madder every time we go to church.

String "Theory" is an hypothesis without hard evidence that can be evaluated by the scientific community, there is no way to challenge it by rational means, it is unfalsifiable which is the complete opposed of that constitutes a scientific theory. More and more the concept of string theory is used to fill the holes or our understanding of the universe and that one’s theory is the only possible one much like how religion was used thousands of years ago. String theory is a scientific philosophy that can not be compared to real world observations but that is nether here not there as I'm sure that most atheist are not looking to create a new paradigm of how to do physics as a replacement for religion.

[Celgress]

What are people's views on ghost hunter type TV shows? I use to believe in haunted houses but now I'm almost 100% certain there is no such thing. The sheer idiocy of these shows such as how the participants gather "evidence" destroyed by belief in haunted houses about a decade ago. Usually, the participants sit in a dark room frightening themselves while they claim to see and heard tons of stuff never picked up by recording equipment. Another thing, if these spirits are so weak they need to communicate through incomprehensible static bursts of a mistuned radio receiver they are nothing we need to be concerned about.

[Moon Ronin]

The problem with this is; first, it is an open question whether humans have free will, based on neuroscience, we may not. Of course the very definition of free will is up for debate. The second problem is God allows free will so we make our own mistakes and decisions. So God thought Hitler' free will was more important than the free will of 6 million Jews. Because i am very sure they did not decide to die in concentration camps.

It's a rabbit hole and a slippery slope. If our behavior can be explained through the clockwork laws of cause and effect then can we then be held responsible for said behavior as it was just an unfolding of the given? Then was Hitler truly evil? (the answer to that question is always yes). Determinism can be a very scary concept that if completely embraced will undermine both blame and praise. I think ,God or not, society must defend free will even if it is an illusion. This is one area where I think that scientists need to exercise some self-restraint, instead of gleefully disabusing people of the illusions that undergird all they hold dear.

[Kirby101]

It's a rabbit hole and a slippery slope. If our behavior can be explained through the clockwork laws of cause and effect then can we then be held responsible for said behavior as it was just an unfolding of the given. Then was Hitler truly evil? (the answer to that question is always yes). Determinism can be a very scary concept that if completely embraced will undermine both blame and praise. I think ,God or not, society must defend free will even if it is an illusion. This is one area where I think that scientists need to exercise some self-restraint, instead of gleefully disabusing people of the illusions that undergird all they hold dear.

I agree, we have no way of knowing if free will exists, but we must behave as if it does.

The problem with Pascal is pretending to believe in God isn't the same as believing in God.

[Moon Ronin]

What are people's views on ghost hunter type TV shows? I use to believe in haunted houses but now I'm almost 100% certain there is no such thing. The sheer idiocy of these shows such as how the participants gather "evidence" destroyed by belief in haunted houses about a decade ago. Usually, the participants sit in a dark room frightening themselves while they claim to see and heard tons of stuff never picked up by recording equipment. Another thing, if these spirits are so weak they need to communicate through incomprehensible static bursts of a mistuned radio receiver they are nothing we need to be concerned about.

I have visited a lot of the places that "ghost" hunters have been. It's mindless fun nothing more and I'd bet that the majority of people that do those shows believe in it as much as stage magician believes in real magic

I agree, we have no way of knowing if free will exists, but we must behave as if it does.

The problem with Pascal is pretending to believe in God isn't the same as believing in God.

Again I like Pascal, mostly on his ideas of pressure distribution and not theology, but point being is that most that do believe do so because it's the thing to do or the fear of "maybe" going to hell. I think the number of true gnostic theist is very small compared to the number of agnostic theist such as Pascal when those that do believe are broken down.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

I believe that, if there is a god or gods, the universe is so massive that...why would he/she/it/they ever bother will little old me, much less planet Earth?

I’m perfectly fine with and capable of answering a question (“where do we come from?”) with “I don’t know”.

I’m not sure what that makes of me, but...eh.

Be a “good person”. Morality, while being grey at times, stems from “don’t do things that hurt others”. I don’t need a religion to tell me that; I just need to know it’d suck if it was done to me.

[seismic-2]

"Free will" becomes a problematic concept if you believe in an omniscient god. Does this god know the future? If so, then he knows everything that you're going to do, so do you in fact actually have free will? Is there any difference between a god who knows everything that will happen and a god who determines everything that will happen, by virtue of his knowing it?

[Celgress]

"Free will" becomes a problematic concept if you believe in an omniscient god. Does this god know the future? If so, then he knows everything that you're going to do, so do you in fact actually have free will? Is there any difference between a god who knows everything that will happen and a god who determines everything that will happen, by virtue of his knowing it?

A fascinating conundrum. This question reminds me of the tragedy of Oedipus from Greek Mythology and the proposed (by a majority of ancient thinkers and modern scholars alike) culpability of the Greek Gods in said tragedy -

"Fundamentally, by utilizing fate, prophecies, the oracle of Apollo, and the plague, the gods played a significant role in the destruction of Oedipus and his family. By controlling fate, the gods carry all the responsibility of Oedipus in killing his father and marrying his mother."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus

[TriggerWarning]

I think a majority of people that do "believe" is more to do with something on the line of Pascal's wager. I like Pascal, most likely the best example of an agnostic theist (I'm more on the agnostic atheist side)but anyway. Pascal's thinking is that if there is a God and if he is indeed infinitely incomprehensible then he has no affinity to us. That would mean that "God" is beyond our understanding and any evidence pertaining to him would be equally beyond or grasp of understanding. With that man is incapable of knowing either He is or if He is not. He came to the conclusion that reason can not be used it create a certainty. So his wager is that it is safer to believe in God even it there is no proof that one exist than not to and spend eternity in whatever. But then you have to go with Homer (Simpson) and the line of thinking that suppose we've chosen the wrong god and he get madder and madder every time we go to church.

String "Theory" is an hypothesis without hard evidence that can be evaluated by the scientific community, there is no way to challenge it by rational means, it is unfalsifiable which is the complete opposed of that constitutes a scientific theory. More and more the concept of string theory is used to fill the holes or our understanding of the universe and that one’s theory is the only possible one much like how religion was used thousands of years ago. String theory is a scientific philosophy that can not be compared to real world observations but that is nether here not there as I'm sure that most atheist are not looking to create a new paradigm of how to do physics as a replacement for religion.

I've always found Pascal's wager to be ridiculous. How does one choose to believe in something they absolutely don't believe in?

Could you make yourself believe in Santa Claus? Make yourself believe that a fat man in a red suit is actually flying around the globe on Christmas Eve sliding down chimneys?

I can no more make myself believe in any of the magical sky gods that mankind has created than I can make myself believe in Santa Claus.

I could try and fake belief but it wouldn't change what I really believe and if I was wrong then any all powerful God would know I was faking it.

[Jack Dracula]

I am atheist but I'm not a dick about it.
I do confess to having little patience for Christians who believe themselves to be superior due to their faith and have no patience for sanctimonious lecturing.

I also brought a cartoon: