Atheism and irreligion thread

[Powerboy]

I've always found Pascal's wager to be ridiculous. How does one choose to believe in something they absolutely don't believe in?

Could you make yourself believe in Santa Claus? Make yourself believe that a fat man in a red suit is actually flying around the globe on Christmas Eve sliding down chimneys?

I can no more make myself believe in any of the magical sky gods that mankind has created than I can make myself believe in Santa Claus.

I could try and fake belief but it wouldn't change what I really believe and if I was wrong then any all powerful God would know I was faking it.

We do have an amazing ability to make ourselves believe things that are ridiculous, sometimes to fit in with the culture around us. Religion is a major example of that. But your point is well-taken. Familiarity can breed acceptance. Someone who thinks Zeus on his mountain or Odin or Krishna are ridiculous will accept Christian beliefs because they grew up hearing about them.

But, by and large, you can't make yourself truly believe something when all the evidence is contrary to it.

I also think Pascal was presenting a scenario that was Christianity or nothing. I may be wrong about that but probably he was. Today, we have so much more awareness of the beliefs of other cultures. So it's not just the Christian god or nothing. What if there is some other exclusionist god that says, "Believe only in me or perish"? OOPs. Now, I guess you've got to choose and still have the possibility of being wrong.

Plus if an all-powerful god did exist, it would know that someone is just pretending to believe in order to get a reward or avoid a punishment.

All of which is beside the point that if there was such an entity, it wouldn't be any of the gods of these ancient mythologies.

[Moon Ronin]

I've always found Pascal's wager to be ridiculous. How does one choose to believe in something they absolutely don't believe in?

Could you make yourself believe in Santa Claus? Make yourself believe that a fat man in a red suit is actually flying around the globe on Christmas Eve sliding down chimneys?

I can no more make myself believe in any of the magical sky gods that mankind has created than I can make myself believe in Santa Claus.

I could try and fake belief but it wouldn't change what I really believe and if I was wrong then any all powerful God would know I was faking it.

The "wager" which may seem ridiculous today was more relevant in the 1600s. The make up of Europe was almost 100% Christian and seemed more aimed at those that already believed to "stay the course" as it were even if you have to fake it for a while until you are able to diminish the irrational sentiments that cause you to disbelieve. It also worked on probability and with any gambling the lower the probability the bigger the reward so if there is only a tiny probability that God truly existed, it made sense to behave as if He did because the rewards could be infinite whereas the lack of belief risked eternal misery. Pascal's Wager has been applied to climate change also to try and convert the "non-believers"... If it is false and we do something we live, if its true and we do nothing we die....

I think people really don't have that much control over how they believe, but with the recent swelling of the numbers of the Flat Earth Society my fear for humanity increases.

[Malvolio]

The "wager" which may seem ridiculous today was more relevant in the 1600s. The make up of Europe was almost 100% Christian and seemed more aimed at those that already believed to "stay the course" as it were even if you have to fake it for a while until you are able to diminish the irrational sentiments that cause you do disbelieve. It also worked on probability and with any gambling the lower the probability the bigger the reward so if there is only a tiny probability that God truly existed, it made sense to behave as if He did because the rewards could be infinite whereas the lack of belief risked eternal misery. Pascal's Wager has been applied to climate change also to try and convert the "non-believers"... If it is false and we do something we live, if its true and we do nothing we die....

I think people really don't have that much control over how they believe, but with the recent swelling of the numbers of the Flat Earth Society my fear for humanity increases.

This seems similar to something my grandfather used to say: Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

[seismic-2]

Perhaps the best way of thinking about Pascal's wager is in terms of the old saw about a respected and highly educated person (in some versions of the story it's Neils Bohr, but it doesn't matter) who had a horseshoe hanging over a doorway for good luck. A visitor inquired, "Sir, you are a rational man who places great value on logic and science. Surely you can't believe in such a ridiculous superstition?" The man replies, "Of course I don't." The visitor asks, "Then why is the horseshoe hanging there?" The man replies, "Because I am told that it works whether one believes in it or not."

[Kirby101]

Perhaps the best way of thinking about Pascal's wager is in terms of the old saw about a respected and highly educated person (in some versions of the story it's Neils Bohr, but it doesn't matter) who had a horseshoe hanging over a doorway for good luck. A visitor inquired, "Sir, you are a rational man who places great value on logic and science. Surely you can't believe in such a ridiculous superstition?" The man replies, "Of course I don't." The visitor asks, "Then why is the horseshoe hanging there?" The man replies, "Because I am told that it works whether one believes in it or not."

The lucky voodoo of the horseshoe may work whether you believe or not, but the all-knowing God specifically asks for your worship and fealty. So saying you believe and not doing so would not escape his notice. Perhaps Pascal is more legitimate in the context of a powerful Church, where not believing could mean death. Saying you believe might be the best course for your survival.

[stargazer01]

But you have just answered your own question. It is a strong, emotional need, even an evolutionary instinct. So knowing we are presupposed to seek a God in the randomness of nature (both the beauty and harshness of it) doesn't that tell you that God is a human construct to fill a hole in out subconscious.

I don't know. I just feel better believing than not. I feel more hopeful. I've also seen how faith in someone greater has helped my life and others. It's like the air, I don't see it but I feel it. Maybe I'm wrong and silly but I rather follow my heart than my mind in this. I just won't be blind follower of organized religion because I've seen too much bad stuff about it.

The answer (if there is one) as I understand it -

God gives us free will to make our own mistakes so we can grow and improve ourselves with the ultimate goal of obtaining enlightenment. God and God's representatives could interfere all the time if they want but don't. Without free will, there is no hatred but there is also no love. While God wants people to be happy God also does not want us to be mindless puppets under direct control.

I can't explain why there is so much suffering in this world other than to reiterate that God and God's representatives (the lesser gods if you will) prefer not to interfere directly whenever possible least they make things worse on a grand scale (once again owing in part to free will). For example, if you give someone everything they'll become dependent upon you thus not improving their own person or persons.

This is how I understand such matters, but it's my view of things nothing more.

thanks, I respect that, but I think God also gave me a brain and intelligence to question things and I do. I just accept that I don't have all the answers, but I try to have a good and healthy life without hurting others.

[shooshoomanjoe]

Anytime someone says something to the effect of look at the beauty of nature to know that God exists I just like to point out that children's cancer wards also exist therefore there is either no god or he is a bastard. I believe the former.

Also the fact that nature isn't always beautiful. Earthqueaks, fires, floods, etc. Even the way carnivores in the wild feed is brutal. Why would a benevolent God create this?

[Celgress]

The lucky voodoo of the horseshoe may work whether you believe or not, but the all-knowing God specifically asks for your worship and fealty. So saying you believe and not doing so would not escape his notice. Perhaps Pascal is more legitimate in the context of a powerful Church, where not believing could mean death. Saying you believe might be the best course for your survival.

The way I figure it. If there is an "all-knowing", and just, God or Gods they know what is in my heart. If I live a good life and try to always respect and help others whenever possible, and do as little harm as possible, I won't be punished (if such a reward system exists). Mind you I do what is right because it is right not out of a desire for any reward or fear of any punishment.

[babyblob]

Im late to the party here.

I have never been a man who believes in god. But I come from a religious family. My mom was catholic and raised me that way. And my uncle is a Southern Baptist Preacher and really pushed god when I was staying with him.

I have always been jealous of people with strong faith. The way my mom or uncle's belief would help get them through the hard times. Or the way talk about how their love of god has made them a better person. I have always wanted to feel that strongly about something. I have just never been able to. It makes me sad at times to feel empty inside with no faith to get me through hard times.

[Celgress]

Also the fact that nature isn't always beautiful. Earthqueaks, fires, floods, etc. Even the way carnivores in the wild feed is brutal. Why would a benevolent God create this?

The only possible answer I've found for these types of questions is such matters are beyond our ability to comprehend fully (the intricacies of the Cosmos), as is String Theory.

I do know (because I studied meteorology for a time) that natural disasters tend to provide safety valves for the global system. Take hurricanes (tropical cyclones), for example, they provide a vital transfer of heat energy between the equator and the poles during the summer of each hemisphere. Without hurricanes, we would tip into a mini-ice age each winter and the tropics might become uninhabitable due to excessive heat each summer.

[Kirby101]

I was going to post this in the Bible thread, but I think it would be disrespectful of the believers there.

But why is God so obsessed with who we f^*k?

[stargazer01]

I was going to post this in the Bible thread, but I think it would be disrespectful of the believers there.

But why is God so obsessed with who we f^*k?

not sure what you mean? expand please

[Moon Ronin]

not sure what you mean? expand please

I would guess to be mostly aimed at homosexuality, The bible has a list of sexual "sins" and that is one of them. Many believers in the Abrahamic religions think that it is a choice or a product of social conditioning and that people are not really born guy and it is a reversible mental condition.

[seismic-2]

I would guess to be mostly aimed at homosexuality, The bible has a list of sexual "sins" and that is one of them. Many believers in the Abrahamic religions think that it is a choice or a product of social conditioning and that people are not really born guy and it is a reversible mental condition.

It was also important in Abraham's day to make the tribe increase by having as many wives and concubines as possible and by having as many offspring by each as feasible.

[shooshoomanjoe]

I would guess to be mostly aimed at homosexuality, The bible has a list of sexual "sins" and that is one of them. Many believers in the Abrahamic religions think that it is a choice or a product of social conditioning and that people are not really born guy and it is a reversible mental condition.

Where in the bible does it say homosexuality is a sin?