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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    That would fly if the post hadn't started with "Superman has great villains Iron Man can't even compare" as a reply to a post that hadn't even mentioned him
    The post you are referring to here was resp donding to someone wondering if the problem of having a weak rogues gallery wasn't a general problem, isn't it rare for some heroes to have good rogues? Which is a fair and valid argument if we are not holding people to an unreasonable standard.

    So I thought let's use a reasonable criteria, not the cartload of great, iconic vilains, but the ones with a few notables. And Superman was useful for that. And again, name an Iron Man villain as good as Luthor, as good as Brainiac, as good as Bizarro even, or Metallo (who is kind of similar to an Iron Man villain)?

    Please contribute to the discussion.

    Answer the OP and give your opinion


    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    We all know that Spiderman has what could be the best Rogues Gallery in comics (Aside from Batman). But I wanted to see who you think has the worst one.

    For me I would have to say Daredevil. With Foes like Leap Frog, The Jester, The Matador.

    Most of his Rogues come from other heroes. Like Electro, Ox, And The Kingpin.

    His only good original villain Is Bullseye.

    It kind of kills the enjoyment of his early comics when is foes are so lame.

    So who do you think has the worst rogues gallery?

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    The FF and Thor do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Let's take Superman. Within DC, he is often considered to have a weak rogues gallery for instance but he has Luthor, Brainiac, Mr. Mxyzsptlk, Toyman, Bizarro, Zod, Doomsday...many of them have had iconic comics/animation/movie versions. There's not a single Iron Man villain on the level of any of these guys. Superman may be a hard character to make villains against, but his stable which has 6 iconic villains, including one that was so iconic that his name went into the language (that's right brainiac comes from the Coluan, not vice-versa as many might assume today).

    In the case of Marvel, there are quite a few rogues galleries that are for instance as good as, or better than Superman's.
    -- The Fantastic Four (who on the whole their problem might be that their rogues are more interesting than him) -- The Mole Man, the Puppetmaster, the Molecule Man, Annihilus, Galactus, the Skrulls, Namor, and of course, the greatest villain in all of comics, Doctor Doom.
    -- Thor has a pretty good Rogues Gallery these days with Gorr the God Butcher, Dario Agger, Jormungandr, a revived Malekith, Surtur the Fire Giant, The Mangog (aka Doomsday if he had good writing and art), and of course Loki when he's in the mood.
    -- Doctor Strange also has an awesome rogues gallery -- Dormammu, Shuma-Gorath, Nightmare, D'Spayre, Baron Mordo (especially the movie version).
    -- The X-Men have Magneto, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, The Juggernaut, the Sentinels, William Stryker, Mystique, Destiny, the Phoenix Force, the Hellfire Club, Cassandra Nova, Sublime, Arcade among others.

    In general, it's not rare for a character published over decades, to have one or two or three great villains. Batman and Spider-Man are exceptional for having quite a few iconic and influential versions compared to others.

    It is rare for a long serialized character to have no great villains. I mean is there an Iron Man villain as good as:
    -- Dr. Sivana, Black Adam, Mister Mind (SHAZAM)
    -- Doctor Destiny, Darkeid, Vandal Savage, Chronos the Time Thief, Despero, Deathstroke (Justice League)
    -- Klaw and Killmonger (Black Panther)


    As for Carol Danvers...I think it's not fair to compare her with Tony Stark, because her time as a major solo hero is still new and there's a lot of continuity stuff over the years that handicapped her leaving her a lot to overcome still whereas Tony Stark's been there for more than 50 years and got nothing to show for it.
    Maybe it would be fairer to say that only Spider-Man, Batman, and maybe the X-Men are the only ones with rogue's galleries that have become well known in pop culture? (Take Brainiac; it's been my observation that while most people know the word, the character is all but forgotten outside of the comic book crowd. On top of that, I don't think any superman villains outside of Lutor and Zod are household names either.)
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  3. #78
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Maybe it would be fairer to say that only Spider-Man, Batman, and maybe the X-Men are the only ones with rogue's galleries that have become well known in pop culture? (Take Brainiac; it's been my observation that while most people know the word, the character is all but forgotten outside of the comic book crowd. On top of that, I don't think any superman villains outside of Lutor and Zod are household names either.)
    Not even Bizarro?
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  4. #79
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Superman's most popular rogues are probably Lex Luthor (appears in mostly all media), Brainiac (appears in most media due to ties to Kal-El's origin), Zod (evil Superman), Bizarro (evil Superman), Lobo (Superman's Deadpool), Doomsday (killed Superman) and Darkseid (promoted to universal DC villain).
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  5. #80
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Does anyone outside of Spider-Man, Batman, and maybe X-Men* have a truly great rouge's gallery?


    *X-Men has a lot of iconic villains, but also a lot of forgettable and smaller name characters, while Spidey and Bats have really consistent quality across the board.
    A good rogues gallery are just villains who show up repeatedly and get good character development. So yes, Superman, Flash, Captain America all have that.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Maybe it would be fairer to say that only Spider-Man, Batman, and maybe the X-Men are the only ones with rogue's galleries that have become well known in pop culture? (Take Brainiac; it's been my observation that while most people know the word, the character is all but forgotten outside of the comic book crowd. On top of that, I don't think any superman villains outside of Lutor and Zod are household names either.)
    Well the question is do Iron Man villains measure up to even that?

    As you said, maybe we are holding comics stables to an unreasonable standard by demanding that every rogues gallery be as dense as Batman's and Spider-Man's should be the norm...when in practice that's more rare. So yeah that would be an unreasonable standard, you are right. So let's look for reasonable standards.

    I think keeping Superman, a character with a reputation for having weak rogues, is a good reasonable model. Expecting a long running serial character to have at least one or two prominent rogues isn't unreasonable. I am not a fan of Green Lantern for instance, but they do have an iconic villain in Sinestro. Does Iron Man have a villain as iconic or good as Sinestro?

    By this standard, the "you just need one" I think Daredevil would be exempted since while he might not have a rogues gallery with the depth of Batman he does have prominent iconic villains (Kingpin, Bullseye, Elektra, Typhoid Mary). And these villains have been influential. Post-Crisis Luthor was inspired by Kingpin, and Elektra likewise was a really big and influential villain in the '80s. But again Iron Man would be found vaunting. As would also Carol Danvers. I just think it's more damning in the case of Iron Man than Carol since he never had stories like Avengers #200 and so on derail him, or have her entire set of powers hijacked by Rogue who then became for a long time a more prominent character than Carol.

    Captain America has Red Skull. Doctor Strange has Dormammu. No Iron Man villain measures up to that.

  7. #82
    Spectacular Member Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    We all know that Spiderman has what could be the best Rogues Gallery in comics (Aside from Batman). But I wanted to see who you think has the worst one.

    For me I would have to say Daredevil. With Foes like Leap Frog, The Jester, The Matador.

    Most of his Rogues come from other heroes. Like Electro, Ox, And The Kingpin.

    His only good original villain Is Bullseye.

    It kind of kills the enjoyment of his early comics when is foes are so lame.

    So who do you think has the worst rogues gallery?
    Strongly disagree. First off, there's nothing etched in stone that says just because a villain originated in another hero's book, that villain can't evolve elsewhere. Sabretooth originated in an Iron Fist book, that doesn't make him any less Wolverine's archenemy. The same thing can be said for the Kingpin, he is Daredevil's archenemy. The fact that Daredevil has a rogue on caliber of Fisk (who let's face it is widely considered one of Marvel's greatest villains) as his top villain alone prevents his rogues gallery from being the worst. And you forget that Bullseye is not Daredevil's only good original villain. There's Owl, Purple Man, Typhoid Mary, Mr. Fear, Lady Bullseye, Ikari, the Gladiator and the Hand that gives Matt a solid rogues gallery to work with.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member King_Thor13's Avatar
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    Honestly I think a lot of the 'main' characters all have a decent Rogues gallery. Characters that have been around a long time typically acquire a lot of antagonists as they go. The fault largely comes down to writers not putting in the effort to create new foes and/or revitalize old ones.

    I'm surprised so many of you are saying Daredevil. I think he has a fantastic selection of foes.

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    We all know that Spiderman has what could be the best Rogues Gallery in comics (Aside from Batman). But I wanted to see who you think has the worst one.
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  10. #85
    Fantastic Member Spidey5640's Avatar
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    Moon Knight has had like six ongoing series and has not one decent nemesis to show for it. Bushmaster is about a D-level rogue at best, same with Sun-God or whateverr his name was.

  11. #86
    Mighty Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nero View Post
    Strongly disagree. First off, there's nothing etched in stone that says just because a villain originated in another hero's book, that villain can't evolve elsewhere. Sabretooth originated in an Iron Fist book, that doesn't make him any less Wolverine's archenemy. The same thing can be said for the Kingpin, he is Daredevil's archenemy. The fact that Daredevil has a rogue on caliber of Fisk (who let's face it is widely considered one of Marvel's greatest villains) as his top villain alone prevents his rogues gallery from being the worst. And you forget that Bullseye is not Daredevil's only good original villain. There's Owl, Purple Man, Typhoid Mary, Mr. Fear, Lady Bullseye, Ikari, the Gladiator and the Hand that gives Matt a solid rogues gallery to work with.
    I dont mind a villain evolving in another book that he didnt start in. My point was that Daredevil's has a lot of rogues that came from other heroes. Like Kingpin, Electro, Mysterio, Ox,. His other villains at least early on were pretty lame. Leap Frog, Matador, The Jester. Not very good villains, Then there were the animal villains Birdman, Catman. Bullseye is great, Mr Fear is alright. Not a fan of Purple Man. Stilt Man is kind of a loser.

    I will admit I am not well versed in his villains from like the late 90s or 2000s. So I can only base my opinion on early Daredevil. I should have pointed that out. So maybe his rogues did get better. He is a great hero so I hope they did.
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  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    I dont mind a villain evolving in another book that he didnt start in. My point was that Daredevil's has a lot of rogues that came from other heroes. Like Kingpin, Electro, Mysterio, Ox,. His other villains at least early on were pretty lame. Leap Frog, Matador, The Jester. Not very good villains, Then there were the animal villains Birdman, Catman. Bullseye is great, Mr Fear is alright. Not a fan of Purple Man. Stilt Man is kind of a loser.
    What about Elektra and Typhoid Mary?

    And again saying Kingpin came from Spider-Man and moved to Daredevil is pretending that Kingpin's appearances in Spider-Man are of the same value as the ones in Daredevil. Kingpin was a mediocre Spider-Man villain, and he became an all-time great villain in Daredevil, to the point that Miller's version of Kingpin has overwritten the one that existed before.

    Villains starting from one title and moving on to bigger things to another title is to the credit of the second title, to which the first title owes a debt of gratitude. It adds value to Spider-Man after all, that other writers and so on can spinoff stuff from his books. The Punisher debuted in Spider-Man and became a bigtime character.

  13. #88
    Mighty Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    What about Elektra and Typhoid Mary?

    And again saying Kingpin came from Spider-Man and moved to Daredevil is pretending that Kingpin's appearances in Spider-Man are of the same value as the ones in Daredevil. Kingpin was a mediocre Spider-Man villain, and he became an all-time great villain in Daredevil, to the point that Miller's version of Kingpin has overwritten the one that existed before.

    Villains starting from one title and moving on to bigger things to another title is to the credit of the second title, to which the first title owes a debt of gratitude. It adds value to Spider-Man after all, that other writers and so on can spinoff stuff from his books. The Punisher debuted in Spider-Man and became a bigtime character.
    He was a mediocre Spiderman villain. I admit that. He was much better in Daredevil. It doesnt change the fact that he is not an original Daredevil villain he started in Spiderman which was my point. I never said Kingpin in Spiderman was the same value because it wasnt. Pointing out where a villain started does not mean I am putting the same value on all his appearances. Like pointing out that Multiple Man First appeared in Fantastic Four does not mean I am putting more or the same value as his appearance there as I would his Appearances in the X Books.

    I have never read a Typhoid Mary issue so I cant say. And I dont really consider Elektra a villain. More like an anti hero.

    Like I said I can only base my opinions on his ealry rogues which were not strong at all.
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  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Does anyone outside of Spider-Man, Batman, and maybe X-Men* have a truly great rouge's gallery?


    *X-Men has a lot of iconic villains, but also a lot of forgettable and smaller name characters, while Spidey and Bats have really consistent quality across the board.
    The X-Men don't have bad guys anymore. Every mutant is good and all humans are evil racist bigots according to current x-books. As a matter a fact that has been one of the biggest reasons the x-books have sucked for so long is because every good villain they have ever had keep getting reformed so they are anti heroes or straight up good guys now because modern writers think they are "kewl". There is not one X-Men villain that is still considered a bad guy these days.

    Captain America used to have a good rouges gallery back in the day, but that kind of fell off when Steve Rogers basically just became Cap 24/7 with no life outside of that. He had Red Skull, Serpent Society, Machinsmith, Crossbones, Batroc, Scourge, Sin, Flag Smasher, and others.

  15. #90
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    [COLOR="#000080"]It's funny that Thor and Cap villains have went onto be one Avengers level threats but none of Iron Man's rogues have. You'd think Mandarin would have[ made it to that level.⅝4_/COLOR]

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