Do modern Marvel writers hate Thor?

[Panic]

You have to give modern writers a break. These characters have been around for decades and the standard for their best story arcs occurred generations ago.

Meh. I know you'd like the old heroes wiped out to make room for your own favourites and I feel that informs your opinion on this subject. I think if you love a hero there are always more good stories to tell. The real issue is (a) writers today want to make their mark fast, as they consider working for Marvel largely a method of upping their profile in order to boost sales of their creator-owned properties, and (b) if the hero they've been given to write is one that they don't really like, instead of just being professional about it and doing their best for the hero, they decide to deconstruct the hero into oblivion, possibly replacing them with their own guy/girl.

If you put in a writer who is passionate about Thor and has talent you will get good stories.

[Anthony Shaw]

That's pretty much why I dislike modern comic writers. They just don't GET it. They just copy older popular stories and try to make it 'theirs'... without getting what made it great in the first place. Daredevil writers are the worst offenders to me. Everyone from Bendis to Netflix has tried to recapture 'Born Again' without 'Getting it'.

Everytime I turn around Daredevil is having his life destroyed, his girls killed, his career trashed, his identity exposed... and its' all just a continous beatdown to make Daredevil a dark, bitter and 'gritty'... But that's NEVER what Miller did. In Miller's world Daredevil lived in a dark gritty world where he kept getting kicked... but he ALWAYS ROSE UP ABOVE IT. Bad things happened to him, but he doesn't lose hope. He's NEVER the guy who goes out at night just to hurt bad people... he's the guy who stands between a drug dealer and the punisher just see he faces the courts...

You can screw with a hero all you want, but you gotta keep that heroic spirit there or the story is garbage.

This post is winning.

[JudicatorPrime]

Meh. I know you'd like the old heroes wiped out to make room for your own favourites and I feel that informs your opinion on this subject.

You could not be more wrong. I do not want the "old heroes wiped out." I do, however, want Marvel to put more of a concerted effort in using its full bench, whether that entails my preferred choices or not.

Setting aside the fact that sales and critical acclaim determine a writer's longevity in this business...

Of course, landing a passionate writer helps tremendously. But how do you determine who is and who is not passionate about Thor?

As the story goes, Walt Disney was fired from the Kansas City Star for "lack of creativity." Did his bosses not recognize Disney's passion, or was it perhaps that Disney's stories did not comport with his supervisor's vision of "great" storytelling? I suspect the latter. And I suspect fans view all writers through a similar lens. "Write the stories I want to read, or else." The bad ones delivered content that the readership would not accept; the good ones met their expectations and continued the standard, even when the stories were mostly rehashed and trite; the great ones elevate the character in some way, essentially fluffing said character's fanbase to sublime, ethereal bliss. This plateau, in turn, becomes the new standard and the process repeats.

[Panic]

You could not be more wrong. I do not want the "old heroes wiped out." I do, however, want Marvel to put more of a concerted effort in using its full bench, whether that entails my preferred choices or not.

Setting aside the fact that sales and critical acclaim determine a writer's longevity in this business...

Of course, landing a passionate writer helps tremendously. But how do you determine who is and who is not passionate about Thor?

As the story goes, Walt Disney was fired from the Kansas City Star for "lack of creativity." Did his bosses not recognize Disney's passion, or was it perhaps that Disney's stories did not comport with his supervisor's vision of "great" storytelling? I suspect the latter. And I suspect fans view all writers through a similar lens. "Write the stories I want to read, or else." The bad ones delivered content that the readership would not accept; the good ones met their expectations and continued the standard, even when the stories were mostly rehashed and trite; the great ones elevate the character in some way, essentially fluffing said character's fanbase to sublime, ethereal bliss. This plateau, in turn, becomes the new standard and the process repeats.

Basically if they indicate they they are a fan, that they have always liked the character, that they are looking forward to writing for that character and hope to do right by the character. That's a pretty good start.

I know you are a big Blue Marvel fan - you will want someone writing him that likes the character and understand what his fans like about the character; you don't want someone who resents the character to be writing him, or is looking to 'subvert expectations' of what it means to be a super-hero, i.e. making them someone most of the readership would look down on for the way they approach dealing with the problems life puts in their path. You really don't want someone plotting his adventures who says, for example, that what they like about the character is that he thinks he's much smarter than he really is, and it's great having other heroes come along and put him in his place. I won't bang on about Aaron, we've all heard that before, but Cates started off by saying that he likes that Thor is a jerk - well that made me wince straight-off. I don't need my heroes to be perfect, in fact I prefer heroes who are fallible, but when the writer's vision of the character is very negative it is bad for the hero as a whole. Again, going back to Blue Marvel, if a writer came along and wrote a great story around the concept that BM is an inept loser who needs Cap and Tony to bail him out of problems, no matter if the storyline is beautifully written and is regarded as a towering classic, it is a terrible story for Blue Marvel if it destroys his credibility as a hero. I mean generally if a story really smears your favourite hero you hope that it is badly written and thus easily forgotten; it's so much more damaging if it is beloved by a large group of fans, which it will be if it elevates their favourite.

Off-topic, but I seem to remember you being someone like me who is into art but doesn't have Photoshop. I've been using Krita for several months now and it's a pretty amazing art programme that you can either get for free, or get off Steam for a nominal amount. It's worth looking into, imo.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

That's pretty much why I dislike modern comic writers. They just don't GET it. They just copy older popular stories and try to make it 'theirs'... without getting what made it great in the first place. Daredevil writers are the worst offenders to me. Everyone from Bendis to Netflix has tried to recapture 'Born Again' without 'Getting it'.

Everytime I turn around Daredevil is having his life destroyed, his girls killed, his career trashed, his identity exposed... and its' all just a continous beatdown to make Daredevil a dark, bitter and 'gritty'... But that's NEVER what Miller did. In Miller's world Daredevil lived in a dark gritty world where he kept getting kicked... but he ALWAYS ROSE UP ABOVE IT. Bad things happened to him, but he doesn't lose hope. He's NEVER the guy who goes out at night just to hurt bad people... he's the guy who stands between a drug dealer and the punisher just see he faces the courts...

You can screw with a hero all you want, but you gotta keep that heroic spirit there or the story is garbage.

Kinda like how everyone tries to make their version of Infinity Gauntlet without getting Thanos nuances and character development.

[PCN24454]

Kinda like how everyone tries to make their version of Infinity Gauntlet without getting Thanos nuances and character development.

He had nuances and character development?

(You really left yourself open there.)

[Agent Z]

A writer being a fan of a character or not has no bearing on how well they write them. Christopher Priest was not a fan of Black Panther when he wrote the book and his run is the definitive take on the character. J. Michael Straczynski is a Superman fan and write Grounded. Greg Rucka wasn't a fan of Wonder Woman when he first wrote her and his take on her earned him an Eisner nomination. Joe Quesada is a Spider-Man fan and was the main driving force behind One More Day.

[Panic]

A writer being a fan of a character or not, has no bearing on how well they write them. Christopher Priest was not a fan of Black Panther when he wrote the book and his run is the definitive take on the character. J. Michael Straczynski is a Superman fan and write Grounded. Greg Rucka wasn't a fan of Wonder Woman when he first wrote her and his take on her earned him an Eisner nomination. Joe Quesada is a Spider-Man fan and was the main driving force behind One More Day.

I agree to a certain extent - and yes, sometimes too much love for a hero can lead to far too much Mary-Sue-ish writing. But if a writer actually likes a hero it certainly helps. And conversely I'm sure many of us have seen occasions where the writer has either no interest, or what I might term 'negative interest', in a hero, and just flat-out damages them deliberately. I've talked before about what Bendis did to the original White Tiger, which was to make him incompetent and unlikeable, and then put him out of his misery. You don't do that kind of thing to heroes you like.

[JudicatorPrime]

Again, going back to Blue Marvel, if a writer came along and wrote a great story around the concept that BM is an inept loser who needs Cap and Tony to bail him out of problems, no matter if the storyline is beautifully written and is regarded as a towering classic, it is a terrible story for Blue Marvel if it destroys his credibility as a hero. I mean generally if a story really smears your favourite hero you hope that it is badly written and thus easily forgotten; it's so much more damaging if it is beloved by a large group of fans, which it will be if it elevates their favourite.

Much of my comments where Blue Marvel is concerned stems from the fact that he is a relatively new character in a medium where it's extraordinarily difficult to win fan support on exposition alone. He's also an African American character with a very political backstory, which makes it even tougher for most of Marvel's readership to take to him. If Adam Brashear had 900+ issues of history -- not to mention an entire religion/mythology based on his exploits -- and was in the franchise character discussion, I honestly wouldn't flinch one bit if a writer came along and reduced him to soot and ash for most of their run, if it was indeed an epic telling. Like you, I don't need perfection or wish fulfillment. I can write, illustrate and market my own graphic novels if push came to shove.

At the end of the day, I'd know that someone would eventually come along to right the ship. Longstanding characters have that grace. And from a business standpoint, I know Marvel isn't going to ever completely kill the golden goose. You might get a year or two hiatus, but they'll be back. They always come back.

New characters, on the other hand, can't withstand that sort of treatment. Not when they're trying to build a fanbase. Anecdotal or not, I have friends and relatives who also read comics who were turned off Blue Marvel completely following Ewing's treatment. I can only imagine what they would think if they stuck around to read Cantwell's Dr. Doom series. Potential only gets you so far. The simple math is that comics cost way too much to ride it out and see if Blue Marvel will eventually get a favorable turn based on his potential. His character alone won't get it done. If comics were truly literature, perhaps, but this is a visual medium where a character's on panel effectiveness is the only impression that matters. And, of course, that impact is cumulative.

So I say again, I really wouldn't worry too much about Thor, Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man or whomever the character happens to be. They'll outlast bad writers and piss-poor stories. They always do. It's the rest of the characters that have to worry. Like Blue Marvel. And Mar-Vell.

Off-topic, but I seem to remember you being someone like me who is into art but doesn't have Photoshop. I've been using Krita for several months now and it's a pretty amazing art programme that you can either get for free, or get off Steam for a nominal amount. It's worth looking into, imo.

Many, many thanks for the recommendation! I'll definitely take a look at Krita. I actually did have Photoshop at one point, but after discovering Clip Studio Paint EX, I cancelled the Adobe subscription. No regrets so far. Sorta wish all of these companies would give up on the whole subscription/lease-based platforms.

[The no face guy]

I think the current writer on Thor is doing a terrific job. I would list Thor as a hero I like, but not a personal favourite, and right now I am thoroughly enjoying the series.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

He had nuances and character development?

(You really left yourself open there.)

Like i said, the best Thanos (and Adam Warlock) stories it's not blowing stuff up and being edgy, but they are about introspection.

After Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos was no longer a pseudo-nihilist villain who steals powerful macguffins and tries to get Death to love him, as hè learned that he is his own worst enemy and acts of cruelty and mystical macguffins didn't help him earn the affections of Death, and he became a hermit farmer and explorer who would occasionally help Adam Warlock against a big cosmic threat, although he still acts in a unpredictable manner at times, like helping Annihilus just because he was curious about how Anny was going to do to shake up the status quo of the universe. We see this ''anti-hero'' phase of Thanos last between Infinity War (1992) and Annihilation (2006).

[Agent Z]

In what universe does this qualify as an antihero?

[JudicatorPrime]

In what universe does this qualify as an antihero?

I do love the "pretender to Mar-Vell's legacy" line.

[PCN24454]

In what universe does this qualify as an antihero?

The 1610 Universe where standards were really low.

[Tofali]

We see this ''anti-hero'' phase of Thanos last between Infinity War (1992) and Annihilation (2006).

In what universe does this qualify as an antihero?

Thanos has never been an anti-hero. He is a villain but don't you agree that there is a big difference between an "anti-hero" and anti-hero?