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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I mean, it's possible, but the odds are really damn long. Even if the character is well made, that doesn't mean much. Lots of characters are well made and they never last.

    I also think it'll be a lot harder to pull off "Joker's girlfriend" in the current climate. Twenty years ago, things were different and Harley's plight and struggles in that relationship were viewed differently than they are today. Harley works as a survivor of domestic violence, that's a hot button issue, but it's gonna be a lot harder to pull of an active girlfriend to the Joker in the era of #metoo.

    Though, if Punchline and her story somehow get to spit in the eye of all the incels who seem to be looking at Joker like their personal hero, it'll be worth it.

    It seems weird to me too. Joker never struck me as the 'dating' type. Harley was a gag, a willing henchman he could string along emotionally. But the joke's been told, so what's Punchline got to offer?

    I dunno. We'll see. But I never bet on a new character enduring. Even Naomi, without doubt the best new character the 2010's gave us, is statistically unlikely to last once Bendis is done with her, and even less likely to become a real player.
    Wait, what? What does that MeToo stuff have to do with good storytelling?

  2. #32
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Wait, what? What does that MeToo stuff have to do with good storytelling?
    Just that it's a touchy subject. Potential for bad PR.

    Look at Harley's relationship with Joker. Pretty abusive. But like I said, Harls started off twenty years ago, and people didn't get offended by so much so easily back then. And Harley getting out of that relationship is one of the things people love about her. She got out. How are people going to respond if we see Joker, (with his big movie still fresh) treating this new character the way he treated Harley? It could easily catch a lot of heat if its not handled right. Nobody wants to look like they're catering to the incel crowd.

    It's not even about good storytelling. It's just about optics and bad PR.
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  3. #33
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    No one thinks Joker is a good role model, and the worst anyone who takes offense can do is complain loudly. The last thing we need is more people bending over backwards for a tiny group of people who really hold no power unless you let them.

    Hell, someone could claim Punchline is racist if you turn your head and look too deep into it. "Asian woman subservient to a white man?! A sexy ninja assassin?! STEREOTYPES!" is something I could totally see. Best to cater to your actual audience than people who won't even read anyways. That's how it should be. Good storytelling shouldn't never be victimized by baseless complaints.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    A sexy ninja assassin?! STEREOTYPES!"
    Actually, I'm kinda sick of them, even just in DC.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    No one thinks Joker is a good role model, and the worst anyone who takes offense can do is complain loudly. The last thing we need is more people bending over backwards for a tiny group of people who really hold no power unless you let them.

    Hell, someone could claim Punchline is racist if you turn your head and look too deep into it. "Asian woman subservient to a white man?! A sexy ninja assassin?! STEREOTYPES!" is something I could totally see. Best to cater to your actual audience than people who won't even read anyways. That's how it should be. Good storytelling shouldn't never be victimized by baseless complaints.
    But it still is. Whether it should or not. That's my point. James Gunn shouldn't have been fired for some bad jokes he had made years prior; Disney knew about the jokes when they hired him, he had apologized, and never done it again. But he got fired anyway, because some people got offended. Rehired, yes, but still fired in the first place. Joker's a known abuser, him dating someone else could easily turn into a PR dumpster fire if it's not handled right.
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  6. #36
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    I say let them complain. People were complaining about the Joker movie for being so problematic and dangerous, but the worst it did was aspire people to go to NYC and dance on the stairs to the local's annoyance. That's literally it.

    Honestly, what I hate about the current times is how toxic everything is. Everyone is a "racist", a "sexist", an "incel", an "SJW", a "troll", a "hatemonger", a "Neo-Nazi", a "feminist", a "white knight", a "soyboy" and so on. These insults just get slung around thanks to social media and it's just tiresome to deal with. I'd rather good stories be told and let the creators do their thing.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Soyboy? That's a new one for me.

    Eh, maybe it'll be fine. Maybe, if anyone does complain, it won't have any impact. Complaints didn't hurt the Joker movie very much. But complaints have done plenty of damage in other instances too.

    I got no skin in this game, myself. Don't care about Punchline, and Joker's over-used. I'm not even reading the books this is happening in right now. But it's a foolish businessman who doesn't take the state of culture into account when making creative decisions so I hope DC has done some risk assessment.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Best to cater to your actual audience than people who won't even read anyways. That's how it should be.
    And this is why the number of comic book readers shrinks every single day. I've spoken to comic shop owners and they say their average customers are usually 30+ men (at the minimum). Without newer generations of fans (not to mention female readers) it's likely that comics will only continue so movie studios can milk them for their next big franchise. The "actual audience" is not going to be around forever and it would be a shame for the medium as we know it to die with them.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Soyboy? That's a new one for me.
    It was a common term of abuse used by They Who Must Not Be Named for people who disagreed with them that representation beyond WASP male characters was important. Certain aspects of the Star Wars community who were outraged that the sequels destroyed the myth that Star Wars was a boys-only club and was being supervised by a woman also used it. It kinda dropped off for awhile, as a lot of the insults (besides "SJW") did. Heck, I can remember when people who didn't agree with They Who Must Not Be Named" were "NPCs."

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    And this is why the number of comic book readers shrinks every single day. I've spoken to comic shop owners and they say their average customers are usually 30+ men (at the minimum). Without newer generations of fans (not to mention female readers) it's likely that comics will only continue so movie studios can milk them for their next big franchise. The "actual audience" is not going to be around forever and it would be a shame for the medium as we know it to die with them.
    You do realize that shops only see a portion of the total customers, right?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Best to cater to your actual audience than people who won't even read anyways. That's how it should be. Good storytelling shouldn't never be victimized by baseless complaints.
    You do know which literary genre is by far the largest in units sold, titles published, and active writers?

    spoilers:
    Romance
    end of spoilers
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #41
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    You do know which literary genre is by far the largest in units sold, titles published, and active writers?

    spoilers:
    Romance
    end of spoilers
    ...I'm confused what that has to do with either the topic or what you quoted? Unless you're saying DC should go all in on romance, which, eh, is a hard sale for me.

    Not saying I wouldn't love a well written superhero romance story mind you, just not sure it's the genre I want from my capes and tights books going forward...

    Or are you saying Punchline should be a more romantic partner to the Joker, cause...

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    ...I'm confused what that has to do with either the topic or what you quoted? Unless you're saying DC should go all in on romance, which, eh, is a hard sale for me.

    Not saying I wouldn't love a well written superhero romance story mind you, just not sure it's the genre I want from my capes and tights books going forward...

    Or are you saying Punchline should be a more romantic partner to the Joker, cause...
    Hybrid implied that there was no point in trying to reach new audiences, because those people don't read. But there are huge reading audiences out right now that the current comics market doesn't reach.

    And publishing romance, drama, and mysteries is one reason why manga is really outselling the "mainstream" American comics.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #43
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Hybrid implied that there was no point in trying to reach new audiences, because those people don't read. But there are huge reading audiences out right now that the current comics market doesn't reach.

    And publishing romance, drama, and mysteries is one reason why manga is really outselling the "mainstream" American comics.
    Yeah, people talk a lot about manga vs comics, but while comics is mostly superhero stuff there's a lot of genres of manga. Maybe the superhero manga vs comics would be better for people to discuss.

    Still, while romance comics and mystery comics and the like would be good, Punchline is firmly in the superhero genre of comics. There might not be much of a new audience for characters there.

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I think the issue (and this is getting off topic a bit) is distribution. There's an audience for superheroes. Gods, look at the movies and tv shows. People *love* this genre. Superheroes are more popular now than they've been since the 40's, and I wouldn't discount them being more popular than even then.

    But nobody's gonna start hunting down their LCS and making a weekly trip for over priced comics that move at a snail's pace. Monthly release, six months for a single story to wrap (assuming the trade does even wrap up the story), and progression constantly stopped and set back so the company can reboot for no real reason? The entire system of production and distribution and schedule is what keeps new readers away.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    You do realize that shops only see a portion of the total customers, right?
    If we're talking digital sales, sure. If we're talking floppies, it's pretty much just comic shops. Even Barnes & Noble don't carry floppies anymore (and I have no interest in digital).
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

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