Generation Five (or 5G) No Longer Line Wide Relaunch

[Artemisfanboy]

I've actually been a bit anxious/worried over "5G" and the potential relaunch or reboot(though for the moment at least, I'm going to take Jim Lee's word at face value they do not intend to do reboot with the characters undergoing a mass age up. Whether that was the original plan and they're the changing the "5" of "5G" into a near future subline or that was their plan to begin with, or whatever happens, we'll see). But, anyway I've tried to make chart to help my analysis and theorizing.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

It includes most currently ongoing in continuity series, plus Death Metal, and Green Lantern Season 2, for reference, starting from the may solicitations and shows their projected numberings should they survive until January, assuming the continue with current frequency of publication, when GL Season 2 is scheduled to end. Miniseries in general and alternate publishing labels not included. Supergirl, confirmed to be cancelled with #42 in May, is not included. The timing with the relaunch was suppose to occur in fall around the the time of Death Metal concluding(in October), and Green Lantern being truncated to 8 issues to accommodate the relaunch(in September, which has been reversed and it will now again run until January)

I also read rumors of several series concluding upon their 50th or 100th issue. Series reaching this point before the approximate time of the rumored relaunch.

Batgirl, with issue #50, in August

Red Hood & Outlaws, with issue #50, in September(The same month GL was supposed to reach it's truncated conclusion.)

Justice League, with Issue #50 in July

Batman, with issue 100 in August

(I find it hard to believe these last two would be cancelled a good two-three months before the rumored relaunch. Red Hood and the Outlaws does seem to be winding down. I believe it ending at #50 to be likely. I cannot comment on Batgirl.)

Teen Titans would not reach issue #50 until January.

If anybody wants to put in their own two cents on which series may be cancelled at what point, or whether the a change in plans behind the scenes may lead to certain series being saved or extended, be my guess.

Also if anybody notices errors in my chart, please feel free to correct me.

[sifighter]

Problem is Dicks already technically back. I’ve only been reading the spoilers because I refuse to actually read Ric so not sure how up to date this is, but “Ric” supposedly fully remembers his life as Dick Grayson, however because of the Talons/Court of Owls he has a second set of memories of an alternate life of him as a Talon assassin and he’s unsure of which one is real. That’s about as far as I know. So technically I guess what we’re waiting for is for him to finally learn that he was in fact Dick Grayson/Nightwing. Personally I’m ready for this to be over, haven’t read a proper nightwing story in about two years because DC decided to character assassinate Dick without any real end game. Seriously King’s story is over and we still have Ric.

[Aahz]

I think there is a good chance we see a relaunch of most books in fall, sales numers have fallen pretty low, and some books will need a relaunch to bring them up again.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

Problem is Dicks already technically back. I’ve only been reading the spoilers because I refuse to actually read Ric so not sure how up to date this is, but “Ric” supposedly fully remembers his life as Dick Grayson, however because of the Talons/Court of Owls he has a second set of memories of an alternate life of him as a Talon assassin and he’s unsure of which one is real. That’s about as far as I know. So technically I guess what we’re waiting for is for him to finally learn that he was in fact Dick Grayson/Nightwing. Personally I’m ready for this to be over, haven’t read a proper nightwing story in about two years because DC decided to character assassinate Dick without any real end game. Seriously King’s story is over and we still have Ric.

As someone who has read the latest issue, let me explain this better.

There are essentially three sets of memories in Richard Grayson’s body. There’s Ric (childhood memories with some Court modifications up to the death of the Graysons, and then his post-amnesia memories, i.e. Annual #2 and #50 onwards), there’s Nightwing (Dick Grayson in the truest sense), and Talon (the corrupted memories planted by the Court of Owls; these feel just as real as the memories of Nightwing to Ric).

He’s known he was Nightwing since Annual #2, so even as early as #50. He knows the truth, but he’s still Ric. So, Ric is still Ric, as that is the dominant persona now (not implying there’s any kind of multiple personality story going on, just that Ric still talks and acts like Ric and not Dick or a Talon).

Ric would have to stop being Ric for Dick to return. Although, Dick may return actually return with a set of Talon memories so who knows how that would affect him lol, let alone his post-amnesia memories (just imagine how he’ll feel about Alfred’s “funeral” knowing he was there for it without really being there). If DC wasn’t always tearing characters down, this could be a pretty good story opportunity. There was also the time Dick saw his own future as Deathwing and other Dark Multiverse worlds, how all that would affect his memories would be fun to see imo.

If anybody wants to put in their own two cents on which series may be cancelled at what point, or whether the a change in plans behind the scenes may lead to certain series being saved or extended, be my guess.

Also if anybody notices errors in my chart, please feel free to correct me.

Since I’m already talking about Nightwing, I think either #75 or #80 (it is Dick’s 80th Anniversary lol) is a good stopping point for Nightwing.

I looked over your chart (pretty cool btw), and you have Death Metal as taking 6 months when there’s a break in August. It ends in November with #6. I also think you should probably include the Generation one-shots to sort of compare where the books will be when Generation Five comes out.

[Ascended]

I've actually been a bit anxious/worried over "5G" and the potential relaunch or reboot

I think we're all concerned about how this might turn out.

But as for Jim Lee saying it's not a reboot.....it is. DC saying it's not is a blatant lie just like when they said the New52 wasn't a reboot.

In 5G, we have a new timeline that starts in the Golden Age where Diana was the world's first superhero. That's two changes to history right there; the current continuity doesn't go that far back (or at least that history got splintered off and no one remembers it, if Snyder's JL can be believed) and Diana hasn't been a Golden Age hero since COIE. And then there's the hints about a unknown Big Bang event in the Golden Age, a Golden Age hero turning evil (which just might be the old Golden Age maxiseries by Robinson made continuity, or could be something original), and a few other things, and all of that are more changes to history/continuity.

This is a reboot. Jim Lee says it's not because he's not a fool, and he knows that the word "reboot" is sure to send fans running away screaming.

As for being worried....we'll just have to wait for title announcements and see what we get. 5G opens up all of DC's history; we could get books spread across the entire timeline and that could be pretty awesome. Or it could be utterly awful, we'll just have to see what they do and buy accordingly.

I don't think DC is quite foolish enough to replace the entire line with the 5G replacements. I don't *think* they are. I'm fairly, kinda-sorta sure we'll have at least *some* books with the classic, big name characters. Probably in their most classic forms. So Action and Detective might feature young versions of Clark and Bruce, where Clark is still single and Dick Grayson is still Robin. And then we'll have the Superman and Batman titles featuring Jon Kent and (supposedly) Luke Fox in the present-day 5G, with Clark and Bruce as older supporting characters. If that's the kind of thing that happens, I think I'll be cool with that.

So I'm not worried about having no books to read with the Big 6 characters we've all grown up with. But what I am concerned about are the secondary, younger characters. Just to use Nightwing as an example since everyone is talking about him already. He might be Robin in a "generation 2" Batman book, which is fine. He might even, maybe possibly, be Nightwing in a "generation 3" Titans book. Also fine. But what about the Nightwing solo title? It's unlikely DC will cancel it (they tried with Ric and failed) but will it feature Dick, or will someone else take the mantle, like Damian? A 5G Nightwing title could feature Dick in his early 30's, at the very top of his career (depends on how they spin the timeline). Or Dick could be killed off or written out, and Damian or someone will be using the name and be the star of the title. I'd happily read the former, but have no interest in the latter. And given the state a lot of characters like Wally, Roy, Donna, Dick, etc., are in, I won't be surprised if DC takes 5G as an opportunity to get rid of them while passing the names on. And if DC gets rid of Dick Grayson I might get rid of DC.

[Artemisfanboy]

But as for Jim Lee saying it's not a reboot.....it is. DC saying it's not is a blatant lie just like when they said the New52 wasn't a reboot.

In 5G, we have a new timeline that starts in the Golden Age where Diana was the world's first superhero. That's two changes to history right there; the current continuity doesn't go that far back (or at least that history got splintered off and no one remembers it, if Snyder's JL can be believed) and Diana hasn't been a Golden Age hero since COIE. And then there's the hints about a unknown Big Bang event in the Golden Age, a Golden Age hero turning evil (which just might be the old Golden Age maxiseries by Robinson made continuity, or could be something original), and a few other things, and all of that are more changes to history/continuity.

This is a reboot. Jim Lee says it's not because he's not a fool, and he knows that the word "reboot" is sure to send fans running away screaming.

Oh, I understand we're at the very least in a process of a continuity shift. Especially in regards to Diana and other characters getting their history restored and or retconned. The JSA and the rest of the Golden Age characters(Now including Diana) and their legacies are still getting properly reinstated from Doomsday clock's changes. There's a lot of clean up going on. And a lot of New 52/Rebirth completely rebooted origins are either going to have to be discarded or re-contextualized. The key phrase I was referring to is "the retroactive mass aging up in the present". Currently the rumor seems to be they're getting rid of hard dates/years for things in the timeline after the Golden Age and the fifth generation maybe retooled in to being a near future subline, which I would feel would be for the best.

But yeah I'm trying to enjoy the few things I'm following, and trying to hold off on hitting the panic button until we get announcements and solicits at least. But I also can't help but to speculate and on some level, worry.

[Ascended]

I'm right there with ya. I mean, I like "future" stories as much as the next guy. Batman Beyond? Yeah, that's a cool concept. And I'd be okay with a book about Jon Kent as the new Superman (or whatever "next generation" story). But I'm not cool with the idea of having no Clark Kent stories to read, or seeing Nightwing replaced by Damian Wayne or whatever. That stuff happening in *a* book is fine. Happening across the entire line and leaving me no books about my favorite characters is not fine. Not at all.

5G could be really cool but until we get title announcements and solicits and an idea of where this is taking us.....well, I know I'm here advocating for calm patience while we wait, but deep inside? I'm quietly panicking and wondering how much money I'll save when I drop all things DC because they replaced everyone I want to read about.

[Frontier]

As someone who has read the latest issue, let me explain this better.

There are essentially three sets of memories in Richard Grayson’s body. There’s Ric (childhood memories with some Court modifications up to the death of the Graysons, and then his post-amnesia memories, i.e. Annual #2 and #50 onwards), there’s Nightwing (Dick Grayson in the truest sense), and Talon (the corrupted memories planted by the Court of Owls; these feel just as real as the memories of Nightwing to Ric).

He’s known he was Nightwing since Annual #2, so even as early as #50. He knows the truth, but he’s still Ric. So, Ric is still Ric, as that is the dominant persona now (not implying there’s any kind of multiple personality story going on, just that Ric still talks and acts like Ric and not Dick or a Talon).

Ric would have to stop being Ric for Dick to return. Although, Dick may return actually return with a set of Talon memories so who knows how that would affect him lol, let alone his post-amnesia memories (just imagine how he’ll feel about Alfred’s “funeral” knowing he was there for it without really being there). If DC wasn’t always tearing characters down, this could be a pretty good story opportunity. There was also the time Dick saw his own future as Deathwing and other Dark Multiverse worlds, how all that would affect his memories would be fun to see imo.

It sounds like it has become an utter mess.

[Lvenger]

But I'm not cool with the idea of having no Clark Kent stories to read, or seeing Nightwing replaced by Damian Wayne or whatever. That stuff happening in *a* book is fine. Happening across the entire line and leaving me no books about my favorite characters is not fine. Not at all.

This is my biggest fear with 5G as well. Having one line change is fine and can be interesting. DC changing all of their major characters for legacy replacements is a genuinely worrying thought.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

I'm right there with ya. I mean, I like "future" stories as much as the next guy. Batman Beyond? Yeah, that's a cool concept. And I'd be okay with a book about Jon Kent as the new Superman (or whatever "next generation" story). But I'm not cool with the idea of having no Clark Kent stories to read, or seeing Nightwing replaced by Damian Wayne or whatever. That stuff happening in *a* book is fine. Happening across the entire line and leaving me no books about my favorite characters is not fine. Not at all.

5G could be really cool but until we get title announcements and solicits and an idea of where this is taking us.....well, I know I'm here advocating for calm patience while we wait, but deep inside? I'm quietly panicking and wondering how much money I'll save when I drop all things DC because they replaced everyone I want to read about.

I disagree with this idea, because the classic characters are at their best outside of mainline continuity. The best Raven is in Teen Titans: Raven. The best Cass is in Shadow of the Batgirl. The best Superman is in Superman Smashes the Klan. And so on. Dick is getting his own book with the Lost Carnival soon, and will eventually get featured in the Teen Titans series of YA books. Nightwing and Tempest are getting new short stories in upcoming Batman and Aquaman Giants, on top of the Titans Giant coming out with a focus on Dick and Raven and synergy with the DCU streaming series.

If you really like these characters, you’d see they’ve been left to stagnate or had worse happen to them. I’d much rather get 16 pages monthly of Titans plus any additional stories like Lost Carnival than get one monthly book about Ric. As a fan, I get nothing from DC‘s direct market output.

Pushing the mainline comics forward is the only way forward imo. The direct market isn’t worth investing in besides as an investment for AT&T and WB for story and content that can be repurposed for other media in the future. And when I say push forward, I mean dropping the Silver Age nostalgia too. I love Dick Grayson but it’s 2020. We can use new characters who aren’t white and straight, too. Not to dismiss Dick or other characters entirely, but they need to adapt to 2020 and that can only happen elsewhere, like the YA books. Just look at how he’s been handled in the TT or YJ animated series compared to the comics.

It sounds like it has become an utter mess.

Not really. It’s very simple, and plays with existing character ties (i.e. Owls) and pretty common story threads (amnesia, identity issues, etc.). It’s a far cry from the issue that got us in this mess when King has Dick get shot for actually nothing and definitely one from any of the several issues from Lobdell. It’s a safe and almost clever retcon of a disastrous story that’s being stretched out because there’s nothing to do with Nightwing in the comics now.

[Frontier]

I disagree with this idea, because the classic characters are at their best outside of mainline continuity. The best Raven is in Teen Titans: Raven. The best Cass is in Shadow of the Batgirl. The best Superman is in Superman Smashes the Klan. And so on. Dick is getting his own book with the Lost Carnival soon, and will eventually get featured in the Teen Titans series of YA books. Nightwing and Tempest are getting new short stories in upcoming Batman and Aquaman Giants, on top of the Titans Giant coming out with a focus on Dick and Raven and synergy with the DCU streaming series.

If you really like these characters, you’d see they’ve been left to stagnate or had worse happen to them. I’d much rather get 16 pages monthly of Titans plus any additional stories like Lost Carnival than get one monthly book about Ric. As a fan, I get nothing from DC‘s direct market output.

Pushing the mainline comics forward is the only way forward imo. The direct market isn’t worth investing in besides as an investment for AT&T and WB for story and content that can be repurposed for other media in the future. And when I say push forward, I mean dropping the Silver Age nostalgia too. I love Dick Grayson but it’s 2020. We can use new characters who aren’t white and straight, too. Not to dismiss Dick or other characters entirely, but they need to adapt to 2020 and that can only happen elsewhere, like the YA books. Just look at how he’s been handled in the TT or YJ animated series compared to the comics.

I disagree with this. I love those stories but I don't think they would be as strong as they are without the source versions as reference or basis. They may condense things and razor-focus on the core of the character to craft a strong story for a new audience, but at their base level they are still reflecting the characters from the main line in my opinion.

Like, Shadow of the Batgirl really got Cass, but I wouldn't say it's the "best" Cass compared to the original version. That just feels disrespectful to all the work writers and artists put into her that inspired Shadow of the Batgirl.

Then again, I guess people often cite media adaptions as the "best" versions so I guess it's in-line with that.

The Giants are reflective enough of the mainline stuff anyways but they're not meant to be an ongoing continuity that most comic book fans expect.

Not really. It’s very simple, and plays with existing character ties (i.e. Owls) and pretty common story threads (amnesia, identity issues, etc.). It’s a far cry from the issue that got us in this mess when King has Dick get shot for actually nothing and definitely one from any of the several issues from Lobdell. It’s a safe and almost clever retcon of a disastrous story that’s being stretched out because there’s nothing to do with Nightwing in the comics now.

Maybe if you've been following it more closely then I have, but on-paper it sounds like a convoluted mess.

[Ascended]

I disagree with this idea, because the classic characters are at their best outside of mainline continuity. The best Raven is in Teen Titans: Raven. The best Cass is in Shadow of the Batgirl. The best Superman is in Superman Smashes the Klan. And so on. Dick is getting his own book with the Lost Carnival soon, and will eventually get featured in the Teen Titans series of YA books. Nightwing and Tempest are getting new short stories in upcoming Batman and Aquaman Giants, on top of the Titans Giant coming out with a focus on Dick and Raven and synergy with the DCU streaming series.

Oh I love the out of continuity stuff as much as the next guy. Smashes the Klan? Absolutely the best Superman we've had in years. And I have high hopes for Lost Carnival too. And yes, the direct market is a dead end and these stand-alone adaptations are the way into healthier distributions that'll bring in new readers and new ideas. I agree with all of that.

But I still want regular books with these guys too. I'll grab Lost Carnival when it hits, just like I grabbed Nightwing: New Order. But I still want a regular dose of quality Nightwing too, where his journey as I've been following it for twenty odd years can continue. That doesn't necessarily mean the direct market either, it could be regularly released OGN's or digital or whatever. I'd be perfectly happy to get Nightwing season 1; a six issue miniseries or bookstore OGN followed the next year by Nightwing season 2.

I want both; lots of unique and self contained adaptations, and a steady supply of the "source material" where I can watch one particular version continue to grow.

[kilderkin]

I think there is a good chance we see a relaunch of most books in fall, sales numers have fallen pretty low, and some books will need a relaunch to bring them up again.

Agreed, and as mentioned some numbers are rounded nicely at 50 and 100

Makes sense for a bit of a bump to do a refresh of the line up

[cranger]

Maybe if you've been following it more closely then I have, but on-paper it sounds like a convoluted mess.

I just picked up whatever the new issue was a couple weeks ago and it was pretty straightforward memory tampering. There might have been some messy stuff somewhere along the way, I don't know, but as far as the current story is concerned it is not that hard for a reader to jump in on, and all I knew going in was hearing people complaining about "Ric".

[Frontier]

Oh I love the out of continuity stuff as much as the next guy. Smashes the Klan? Absolutely the best Superman we've had in years. And I have high hopes for Lost Carnival too. And yes, the direct market is a dead end and these stand-alone adaptations are the way into healthier distributions that'll bring in new readers and new ideas. I agree with all of that.

But I still want regular books with these guys too. I'll grab Lost Carnival when it hits, just like I grabbed Nightwing: New Order. But I still want a regular dose of quality Nightwing too, where his journey as I've been following it for twenty odd years can continue. That doesn't necessarily mean the direct market either, it could be regularly released OGN's or digital or whatever. I'd be perfectly happy to get Nightwing season 1; a six issue miniseries or bookstore OGN followed the next year by Nightwing season 2.

I want both; lots of unique and self contained adaptations, and a steady supply of the "source material" where I can watch one particular version continue to grow.

I think the young adult/young kids graphic novels and series are great and really enjoyable, but I think that would be very limiting to the line if we just limited it to stuff like that compared to what comics can achieve as ongoing narrative story that builds on the mythos and the characters' adventures on a regular basis.