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  1. #151
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    It's just odd to me that there is this minority of fan that is demanding this crazy amount of alignment out of so many books and so many writers...
    And I don't find it to be demanding a "crazy" amount of alignment, but just basic consistency enough that things makes sense. That we know how old Dick Grayson was when he became Robin and how old he is today. Whether or not various characters have died and been resurrected. Which major stories of the past happened and which didn't. Whether Diana has been active as Wonder Woman for 10 years or 50 years or 80 years (and how her human companions that were there for origin fit in to the origin if it's been pushed back too far for the original tale to make sense). For me, these are bare-minimum levels of consistency that we need.

    Those bible books cant get continuity perfect and people bu the billion adhere to those stories as tho they are perfectly inspired by god.
    If it makes you feel better, I don't adhere to those, either. And reading up on them (particularly the OT) was part of what led me to that.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-20-2020 at 11:16 AM.

  2. #152
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Well really I agree with everything your saying...

    Why cant comic book fans just not sweat the small stuff
    Probably because it's fun to throw themselves into the nitty gritty details? I mean, it's been said on panel that Superman's favorite album is Metallica's "& Justice For All" and being a big Metallica fan, I absolutely adore that little fact.

    And I think it's understandable, really. If you look at most other forms of fiction, the continuity is usually much tighter. Of course, there's reasons for that; shorter product life spans, fewer creators, etc etc., but when you read, I dunno, My Hero Academia or watch old Star Trek (before the Abrams movies f*cked up continuity) that sort of stuff has a much tighter and more consistent continuity. And we all know why, but when most of our entertainment can pull it off, we want our comics to do so as well, even if we know intellectually that there's very good reasons it doesn't (and realistically, cant) happen.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  3. #153
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Probably because it's fun to throw themselves into the nitty gritty details? I mean, it's been said on panel that Superman's favorite album is Metallica's "& Justice For All" and being a big Metallica fan, I absolutely adore that little fact.

    And I think it's understandable, really. If you look at most other forms of fiction, the continuity is usually much tighter. Of course, there's reasons for that; shorter product life spans, fewer creators, etc etc., but when you read, I dunno, My Hero Academia or watch old Star Trek (before the Abrams movies f*cked up continuity) that sort of stuff has a much tighter and more consistent continuity. And we all know why, but when most of our entertainment can pull it off, we want our comics to do so as well, even if we know intellectually that there's very good reasons it doesn't (and realistically, cant) happen.
    Well the idea superman likes Metallica may not jive with a new writer.
    I for one would not make that supermans favourite song... but what his favorite song is, is hardly important anyway...

    As for star trek it is pretty tight but even a quick google search and you can find problems...

    These guys discuss it a bit https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/co..._in_star_trek/

  4. #154
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menacer View Post
    Well the idea superman likes Metallica may not jive with a new writer.
    And if writers had to adhere closely to all the minor points of continuity, it wouldn't matter what that writer liked or thought about the matter.

    And yeah, Trek has it's continuity cracks but the point I was making is that they don't have many. Before Abrams anyway. Given the number of people who've worked on the show, the length of time the franchise has existed, and the number of shows and films, it's remarkable that it's as tight as it is.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  5. #155
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And if writers had to adhere closely to all the minor points of continuity, it wouldn't matter what that writer liked or thought about the matter.

    And yeah, Trek has it's continuity cracks but the point I was making is that they don't have many. Before Abrams anyway. Given the number of people who've worked on the show, the length of time the franchise has existed, and the number of shows and films, it's remarkable that it's as tight as it is.
    Yes if writers had to adhere to continuity exactly you may ended up with a superman or batman you hate permanently...

    I hate the depiction of all star superman by Morrison... even tho I love many versions of superman and many books of Morrison...

    If things are to strict..
    It would suck...

    Youd end up with a movie like batman 89 repeated to nauseam...

    Or stuck with a batman forever depiction ... forever.

    Or stuck with nolan and bales take on batman.

    Or synder and affleck's...

    You need to allow new talents to create new stories with new ideas ...

    Some core stuff is saved and old stories can be referenced but I'd hate if I was stuck reading a 1966 batman or even the 1940s batman... I like that things change

    Soft continuity is enough...

    And a hard continuity could really suck and destroy creativity or even a writer or artists desire to work on the material...

    We often talk about continuity of writers... but what about the artists or the hero suit... if hard continuity was forced you could he stuck with repetitive art.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menacer View Post
    Well the idea superman likes Metallica may not jive with a new writer.
    I for one would not make that supermans favourite song... but what his favorite song is, is hardly important anyway...

    As for star trek it is pretty tight but even a quick google search and you can find problems...

    These guys discuss it a bit https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/co..._in_star_trek/
    Star Trek's rule if it's on the screen it's canon.

    With a few exceptions.

    Abrams Star Trek did not screw up anything-it veered into a different direction without messing with the main universe. Only Enterprise is canon in both universes.

    However the IDW Trek book has some canon stuff in it as the Enterprise actually having a human/android body-he was introduced in the comic and appears in the last two movies.

    Now Picard brings up some issues-we see his former EXO as a woman and the question of which Enterprise is around.

    If you think Trek is a mess go visit Transformers.

  7. #157
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    That's part of the problem with firing someone. You then have to do something with all the projects they were in the middle of. Didio left them in a bind. At least some of the stuff he initiated they have to go through with just because there's no way to stop it. Or you go two or three months with no product on the shelves. All you can do is work around what's already there.
    Well, Didio being fired has nothing to do with this FCBD delay and Coronavirus happening. Just 2 bad situations making it even harder to plan the future. I'm sure if WB was aware Coronavirus wold come and make things even harder, they wouldn't have fired Didio so fast.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Star Trek's rule if it's on the screen it's canon.

    With a few exceptions.

    Abrams Star Trek did not screw up anything-it veered into a different direction without messing with the main universe. Only Enterprise is canon in both universes.

    However the IDW Trek book has some canon stuff in it as the Enterprise actually having a human/android body-he was introduced in the comic and appears in the last two movies.

    Now Picard brings up some issues-we see his former EXO as a woman and the question of which Enterprise is around.

    If you think Trek is a mess go visit Transformers.
    Actually Transformers has an infinite Multiverse, with a very hands off attitude of "if it's official, it exists somewhere and when".
    https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Multiverse
    https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity
    https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Universal_stream

  9. #159
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    As crazy and time-whimey as DC continuity is, there is a definite broad strokes history that exists for virtually all their major characters. All they have to do is let creators know what history is. Again, just the broad strokes, not the exact details. The major events that have occurred across the span of the DCU so that everyone is on the same page.

    DC just needs to stop trying to rewrite and retcon away vast chunks of its own history like saying Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Hawkman & Hawkwoman never existed until recently, or that Superman & Lois Lane never got married and was never Superboy, and Martian Manhunter never founded the League, but Cyborg did, who was now never a Teen Titan. It's stupid, it accomplishes very little from a storytelling perspective and requires far more shoeleather to be wasted trying to explain away the gigantic inconsistencies these cause within the shared universe.

    If you want to tell stories about a Wonder Woman experiencing Man's World for the first time, do it as a flashback story. Or give her amnesia. There are so many ways around these stupid retcons that only cause massive problems in the longterm.

  10. #160
    Mighty Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menacer View Post
    Yes if writers had to adhere to continuity exactly you may ended up with a superman or batman you hate permanently...

    I hate the depiction of all star superman by Morrison... even tho I love many versions of superman and many books of Morrison...

    If things are to strict..
    It would suck...

    Youd end up with a movie like batman 89 repeated to nauseam...

    Or stuck with a batman forever depiction ... forever.

    Or stuck with nolan and bales take on batman.

    Or synder and affleck's...

    You need to allow new talents to create new stories with new ideas ...

    Some core stuff is saved and old stories can be referenced but I'd hate if I was stuck reading a 1966 batman or even the 1940s batman... I like that things change

    Soft continuity is enough...

    And a hard continuity could really suck and destroy creativity or even a writer or artists desire to work on the material...

    We often talk about continuity of writers... but what about the artists or the hero suit... if hard continuity was forced you could he stuck with repetitive art.
    I don't think these are the best points to use because (a) All-Star Superman and Batman 89 are not in the main comic continuity, and (b) just because you're writing in continuity doesn't mean characters and the world around them cannot change. You can write the characters changing. For example, when Garth Ennis wrote Punisher, Punisher acknowledged that he used to use a battle van, but that he was going back to basics and wasn't using anything like that anymore.

  11. #161
    Spectacular Member MikefromGotham's Avatar
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    I think the problem is that some of the inconsistencies are MAJOR points, not minor details. I can enjoy all of this without "knowing exactly how old Dick Grayson is, etc.". But things like 'so the Kents are alive again' I find to be unforgivable in how they have been handled by editorial. Another is how Wonder Woman is now the first super hero...I just spent two years reading Doomsday Clock preaching about how Superman was first and everything revolves around him. Another is how Doomsday Clock just dropped the entire JSA back into continuity with no real follow up. More unforgivable is not publishing a JSA book; which would sell great and help explain things JSA-related.

    I have a sneaking feeling that the five Generation books never see the light of day. That whole plan is dumped and a one-shot is released to lay out the timeline and major events that are in continuity.

  12. #162
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    As crazy and time-whimey as DC continuity is, there is a definite broad strokes history that exists for virtually all their major characters. All they have to do is let creators know what history is. Again, just the broad strokes, not the exact details. The major events that have occurred across the span of the DCU so that everyone is on the same page.

    DC just needs to stop trying to rewrite and retcon away vast chunks of its own history like saying Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Hawkman & Hawkwoman never existed until recently, or that Superman & Lois Lane never got married and was never Superboy, and Martian Manhunter never founded the League, but Cyborg did, who was now never a Teen Titan. It's stupid, it accomplishes very little from a storytelling perspective and requires far more shoeleather to be wasted trying to explain away the gigantic inconsistencies these cause within the shared universe.

    If you want to tell stories about a Wonder Woman experiencing Man's World for the first time, do it as a flashback story. Or give her amnesia. There are so many ways around these stupid retcons that only cause massive problems in the longterm.
    Again the retcons or reboots or the changing continuity are only a problem for a minority of continuity adherents... most people likely dont care at all.

    I for one was not a fan of superman and lois's marriage in the 90s... I can still enjoy loads of their stories but when new 52 came along and rest things I loved superman being single and loved the superman and wonder woman relationship...

    The fact that superman married in the 90s shouldnt mean that all writers are chained to continuity for the next 100 years... dude that's just dumb...


    What if someone had said when batman was introduced... well batman kills. That's canon. That's continuity and that's how it is...

    No its good that some stories batman kills, and some he doesnt. It's good the writer can decide and tell his original creative story... and he has a host of books over 80 years he can reference. And other books he can ignore.

    Dc is soft continuity and that means a writer can reference whatever he wants. Or do something totally new and disconnected...

    Fact is if you were so die hard continuity you may have said in the 90s that superman has always been single and shouldn't marry... and youd lose out on all the stories you love


    Personally I don't like the Clark and lois marriage and I dont like jon...

    But you know I'm way more interested then writers telling stories then dictating what is and isnt acceptable for writers to tell stories about. So I enjoy the new stuff with Clark's family and I also collect old stuff ...

    At first I didn't like Mister Mircle and big Barda having a kid... but after reading the book 3 times its grown on me...

    But I went out and collected some old stories just so I could also read stuff that aligns with my preferences...


    People hated 70ish issues of Blue Superman. This was the run that made me enjoy Lois and Clark as a married couple and it's one of my all time events in superman's history... sadly most seem to hate it or have not read it.

  13. #163
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menacer View Post
    Again the retcons or reboots or the changing continuity are only a problem for a minority of continuity adherents... most people likely dont care at all.

    I for one was not a fan of superman and lois's marriage in the 90s... I can still enjoy loads of their stories but when new 52 came along and rest things I loved superman being single and loved the superman and wonder woman relationship...

    The fact that superman married in the 90s shouldnt mean that all writers are chained to continuity for the next 100 years... dude that's just dumb...


    What if someone had said when batman was introduced... well batman kills. That's canon. That's continuity and that's how it is...

    No its good that some stories batman kills, and some he doesnt. It's good the writer can decide and tell his original creative story... and he has a host of books over 80 years he can reference. And other books he can ignore.

    Dc is soft continuity and that means a writer can reference whatever he wants. Or do something totally new and disconnected...

    Fact is if you were so die hard continuity you may have said in the 90s that superman has always been single and shouldn't marry... and youd lose out on all the stories you love


    Personally I don't like the Clark and lois marriage and I dont like jon...

    But you know I'm way more interested then writers telling stories then dictating what is and isnt acceptable for writers to tell stories about. So I enjoy the new stuff with Clark's family and I also collect old stuff ...

    At first I didn't like Mister Mircle and big Barda having a kid... but after reading the book 3 times its grown on me...

    But I went out and collected some old stories just so I could also read stuff that aligns with my preferences...


    People hated 70ish issues of Blue Superman. This was the run that made me enjoy Lois and Clark as a married couple and it's one of my all time events in superman's history... sadly most seem to hate it or have not read it.
    If you want to tell stories of an unmarried Lois & Clark, you can. Tell them as flashback stories. Create a new Earth where the heroes are just starting out. Hell, if the concept of a married Superman gets too stale and no creators can figure out how to make it work, there's a multitude of crazy comic booky ways to remove the marriage that don't nuke the overall history that the DCU has developed over the decades.

    These characters are always meant to evolve and change. Regular continuity tweaks and refreshes have been a part of the DCU from 1945. My point is that retroactively rejiggering vast chunks of the characters history for short-term gains has only led to long-term problems that further alienates readers who end up being turned off by the futile attempts to explain it all.

    Preserving these characters in amber isn't the answer, but discarding the journeys they've taken on their way to the present has proven to be a big mistake

  14. #164
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    If you want to tell stories of an unmarried Lois & Clark, you can. Tell them as flashback stories. Create a new Earth where the heroes are just starting out. Hell, if the concept of a married Superman gets too stale and no creators can figure out how to make it work, there's a multitude of crazy comic booky ways to remove the marriage that don't nuke the overall history that the DCU has developed over the decades.

    These characters are always meant to evolve and change. Regular continuity tweaks and refreshes have been a part of the DCU from 1945. My point is that retroactively rejiggering vast chunks of the characters history for short-term gains has only led to long-term problems that further alienates readers who end up being turned off by the futile attempts to explain it all.

    Preserving these characters in amber isn't the answer, but discarding the journeys they've taken on their way to the present has proven to be a big mistake
    Ultimately your expressing an opinion..
    ...

    What proof do you have?

    This graph demonstrates all comic sales are down... and it has nothing to do with reboots..

    http://www.comicbookpage.com/MayoRep...yPublisher.png



    As we can see, the first quarter of a year are usually the weakest sales of the year with January 2011 being the record low. The drop in the overall sales for the top 30 comics since the record high of 9,355,046 unit in August 2016 is a more pronounced version of the usual fluctuations in the marketplace. No doubt somebody reading this thinks DC is to blame for the dropping sales while someone else blames Marvel and other people blame other publishers.



    The truth is that no one publisher is to blame. This trend is happening across the various publishers with DC was down 275,897 units for the month and Marvel was down 317,325 units. IDW was the exception to the downward trend, up 9,121 units in February.


    Link to the full analysis
    http://www.comicbookpage.com/MayoRep...=2017&Month=02




    According to this chart the big jumps up probably indicates sales from Infinite Crisis 2005-2006 and new 52 2011-2012..


    But I actually have no idea... couldnt find any chart that reflected how a major event, retcon, soft or hard reboot effected sales.


    In summary marvel sells more but is also rife with retcons, reboots, hard and soft and plenty of events... comic sales tend to just be down over all.

    Okay so I'm willing to listen what proof? What proof do you have that its specifically reboots or retcons that alienate? I mean couldnt I just as easily say its these reboots and retcons that bring new readers in??

    Would be interesting to see someone chart a graph that reflects a specific event/retcon/reboot and how it effects sales..

    My guess is these companies get small boosts everytime they do one...

    Over all sales for comics are down but reading In general declines... average American supposedly reads 4 books on average per year. But it's way way lower then that as they take readers like me who read hundreds of books and average it with people who read no books. My gf hasnt read a book in the 6 years we've dated... I have friends with good reads accounts who have 100 friends and no books read...

    People just dont read as much and that's why comic sales continue to go down... most likely


    But again I'm open to seeing your evidence... your proof
    Last edited by Menacer; 03-22-2020 at 09:51 AM.

  15. #165
    Astonishing Member vasir12's Avatar
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    Feels like this thread is moving even further away from the topic...

    Anyway: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03...icitations-5g/

    Bleedingcool believes generations was delayed to make changes as is all of 5G apparently. This kinda reminds of of when three whole issues of Justice League Odyssey were scrapped and redone.

    They describe these changes as "tweaks" but I could see them making some massive course corrections as they navigate these crazy times.

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