Generation Five (or 5G) No Longer Line Wide Relaunch

[Superlad93]

We'll see how this plays out because as it stands with the books as we know them, this doesn't make much sense. All of the books seem to be pointing at the end sign for all of our current incarnations of the characters. And things like Alfred being dead and Batman marrying Catwoman have been explicitly confirmed to be things that are only possible because 5G/Generation 5 will be a legit shift.

So I don't think the books will just go on with their current set ups while some sort of 5G line is created.

What I'm expecting is something like what DiDio said about Generation 2. That's the generation we're all most familiar with. That's when Superman and Batman were in their prime and the original Teen Titans were just starting (that means classic love triangles, identities, and set-ups). DiDio said pointed to that generation (along with Generation 1) and, playing coy, said "hmm, I don't think we've see stories from these two generations". He later expressed himself less ambiguously when he said that they would be straight up rewriting and reimaging classic stories from those eras.

It was rumored that Black Label would be apart of this somehow and maybe be the platform to tell these gen 1 and gen 2 stories. Then the rumor was to use the giant sized books. But the idea my just be to set aside some books in the main line to do the gen 1 and gen 2 stories while the forward momentum of the line remains with the 5G books.

I mean, what good is making a fairly conclusive timeline with past events that we've never seen before if the idea isn't to explore it with about as much thrust as the stories set in the new unwritten present? Seems like this was always the plan in some from, but the method has been going under reconstruction.

I genuinely believe that we are on the last months of the present day DCU, and once 5G hits it will split the line between Generation 5 and gens 1 and 2.

Edit: I bet you that's why all the Legacy numbering is coming back. They'll keep those going, and then start the 5G books with new #1s and a 5G banner. And Gen 1 or 2 banners as needed for the other books so you know what's what.

[Mr.B]

They will probably move things up to the 90's for the silver age. This also throws out the advanced world idea and keeps characters in their 40's.

Probably will move Bruce's Birth up. While Kents discovering Kal El as well.

[Ascended]

But there was a lot of inspiration from Marvel. Sideways is Spider-Man with different powers, a quipper who has relationship drama. The Terrifics are similar to the Fantastic Four. Damage was totally a Hulk rip-off. Curse of Brimstone is similar to Ghost Rider.

And given what Marvel was doing at the time, I think DC made a smart move in that. New Age hit during Marvel's "All Different Now reign of the replacements" and a lot of fans were missing the classic characters. So DC offered an alternative that might've scratched that itch. I love how unashamed New Age was in ripping off Marvel IP's. Those books were, largely, really damn good and I don't think we can blame DC at all for their failure; the push, the marketing, and the world building was all on point and at least as good as what other DC books got. But fans stick to what they know. Which is why the idea of replacing everyone across the whole line with 5G was always a horrible idea, if that's what DC had even intended to do.

It's a bit late to start treating these characters that way, after 80 years of not doing. Can't unring that bell.

If this 5G thing ends up providing books set in different eras, then we can have progression and evolution without losing the classic versions that fans pay for. If Action is set early in Clark's career, and Superman is set in the present when he's married and has a kid, and in a fifth generation title he's semi-retired and Jon is wearing the cape, then we have that character progression and evolution, but we can still read about the guy's early career at the same time. And continuity wouldn't be any harder to keep track of than what DC has now.

I don't know if DC is going to do anything like this, or if it was the plan from the start or what. But it's something I'd be interested in looking at, if they did.

[Lee]

If this 5G thing ends up providing books set in different eras, then we can have progression and evolution without losing the classic versions that fans pay for. If Action is set early in Clark's career, and Superman is set in the present when he's married and has a kid, and in a fifth generation title he's semi-retired and Jon is wearing the cape, then we have that character progression and evolution, but we can still read about the guy's early career at the same time. And continuity wouldn't be any harder to keep track of than what DC has now.

I don't know if DC is going to do anything like this, or if it was the plan from the start or what. But it's something I'd be interested in looking at, if they did.

Right, but that wouldn't make it Dragon Ball or Naruto, where a reader can pick up volume 1 and move forwards, getting a beginning, middle and end. That would just be another continuity semi-reboot that also jumps around the timeline.

[Superlad93]

If Action is set early in Clark's career, and Superman is set in the present when he's married and has a kid

Based on the trajectory of the books right now, I don't think we'll have very many if any books set in DC's 3rd or 4th (aka current day) generations. Not much of anything has been said about Generation 3, and Generation 4 reads like the twilight of the gods for nearly all the books. Particularly everything to do with their two biggest IPs, Batman and Superman. An example being the fact that WB/AT&T told Tom King to make Alfred's death 100% real because it would set the stage for 5G. From what we've heard so far, Generations 1 and 2 will have new story and history added to it that's apparently waiting to be told, and obviously Generation 5 is totally new.

I'm guessing that's why the legacy numbering has been coming back. Those books will likely be for the books set in the past, and new #1s will be either given to current books, or outright created. That'll likely be two books for each of the big 6. One 5G and one gen 2, and a JSA book to house all of gen 1 because that seems to be gen 1's focus.

[Nick Miller]

The New Age of Heroes were written off as soon as they were announced. Most readers didn't even glance in their directions, because they were new heroes, with new mantles. That they were rip-off is only true at a superficial level, DC did try (and in most case succeeded) in making them unique, expanding a lot of their mythos in doing so (hello, Immortal Men and the Five Houses of the Immortals).

But, what a surprise, aside from the one book where established characters were present, all of them floundered, and at least one of those (The Silencer) didn't do so because of artists or anything, but a clear lack of support for the readership, despite how touching and sympathetic the Main Character is. Another, Sideways, even had Rocafort for almost all its issues and yet was left to rot by the readership - and it can't be for a supposed lack in qualities, when Supersons, of all books, sold a lot more with such terrible storylines and characterizations.

Or, less recently, New Superman. Why isn't this book still an ongoing series if not because most readers of DC actively reject new things. It's blatant on those forums that most of the readership only wants more of the same stories, with the same characters, the same teams, and so and so. And no actual progression, only the appearance of it.

What are you on about? I don’t want Batman to retire and die.

Nor am I interested in new properties when I am attached to 70 of them already, from DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, TV, Music and movies. There’s no room in my brain for Sideways, no matter how good his comics are.

[manwhohaseverything]

What are you on about? I don’t want Batman to retire and die.

Nor am I interested in new properties when I am attached to 70 of them already, from DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, TV, Music and movies. There’s no room in my brain for Sideways, no matter how good his comics are.

@Korath is kinda right that Japanese system of heroes ending careers/stories and new guys with new stories taking over works better. Better quality stories are made.

[iron chimp]

I think that's the utter lack of progression and episodic nature of comisc which is killing sales. There is a reason why Goku, Naruto or Luffy are already has big or bigger than Superman and Batman in a lot of people's minds. Why invest in characters without clear beginnings, nor ends, and absolutely no vision in their stories ?



The problem is not that the series were cancelled. The problem is that when there was announced, a lot of people, here on CBR (and I suspect they just verbalized what a lot of current DC readers felt) decided, premptively, that they wouldn't even read the books because they were about new characters and thus wouldn't last.

They decided to not even give those books a chance because they wouldn't sell, and thus created an prophecy which could only fulfill itself. And those are often the same peoples screaming to high heavens that Superman without his underwear isn't Superman, that the Legion of Super-Heroes must keep their costumes from era X, etc. That's what I find infuriating.

I see what your saying and thats fair. Older fans will have seen all this before tho - things like Impact line (was that the name?) and im sure others which just came went. Those people will have all sorts of random dead runs too from previous decades (and today) just like you will have them now.

Sometimes you get just 6 or 12 issues but if they are a cool run that you can read again on a rainy sunday then thats still a result in my opinion.

[Ascended]

Based on the trajectory of the books right now, I don't think we'll have very many if any books set in DC's 3rd or 4th (aka current day) generations.

No, perhaps not. But who really knows? And Didio leaving just raises more questions, and more opportunities for the original plan (whatever it might've been) to change.

My point stands though; a publishing line spread across history would likely make people a lot less gun shy about 5G. More of us might be willing to give Jon-Superman a shot if Clark's still wearing the cape in another active title, yknow?

And it solves problems with properties like the Titans. DC doesn't know what to do with those guys today, but a Titans book set in the past avoids that problem.

G3 is supposed to be the 90's right? And G4 is today? No, I wouldn't expect much, if anything, from G3. Probably not G4 either, though if DC is going to do "classic" takes they might feel braver about sticking with the current "next steps in life" directions. But maybe that stuff is planned to play a big role in the 5G books, so books set in G4 would be redundant. Who knows?

I mean, DC has made me very cynical. I have very little faith in them. I'm just saying I can see how this whole thing *could* be done in a viable way that won't drive the entire direct market over a cliff. What DC actually does? Who the hell knows? We'll have to wait for announcements.

@Lee; no this wouldn't make the DCU like manga. But the main DCU is never going to be like that no matter what they tried to do. We could (and arguably should) have a line of OGN's that can tap into that market, structured with those sensibilities. But the direct market main continuity couldn't fit that shape if it tried. But I definitely support a line of books that could pull some of those manga fans in. I want DC books and products in every possible format, for every possible audience.

[Superlad93]

a publishing line spread across history would likely make people a lot less gun shy about 5G. More of us might be willing to give Jon-Superman a shot if Clark's still wearing the cape in another active title, yknow?

I agree. That's what I said more or less in my original post on this thread. And from the sound of these rumors coupled with the original rumors, this was always the plan in some from. The actual place where one can find the stories about gens 1 and 2 have been the only things that have been in flux in all of these rumors, but there being a place at all seem to have never been in question.

The timeline changing to be a bit more flexible is the real news, if you ask me. However, I don't think it means the same thing others seem to assume it means, especially knowing that WB/AT&T are very much behind the 5G idea. But that's just my opinion...

But maybe that stuff is planned to play a big role in the 5G books, so books set in G4 would be redundant.

Based on what King said about Batman and how WB/AT&T made him change it so Alfred's death was real, and how they said it was in service of 5G, I'd say that's accurate.

[kilderkin]

Right, but that wouldn't make it Dragon Ball or Naruto, where a reader can pick up volume 1 and move forwards, getting a beginning, middle and end. That would just be another continuity semi-reboot that also jumps around the timeline.

In all honesty, the idea that a character I love has some sort of finite life span, in comics at least, really doesn't interest me at all

Doesn't mean you can't add to the mythos, I went all in on the new age metal, but if it was a situation where I had to choose characters I love and want to keep reading, or giving them up to see if, and if is important here, if I like new ones instead (again important)

I know what I want, I don't apologize for that, but me wanting to read about Bruce, Diana, Donna, John, dick, Tim, Cruz, Cassandra, Kyle etc in no ways stops me wanting to read new characters

[Lee]

And it solves problems with properties like the Titans. DC doesn't know what to do with those guys today, but a Titans book set in the past avoids that problem.

That would be dependent on how many of the old Titans stories are considered canon. If the idea is that the Wolfman/Perez run is canon, then how do you fit new stories in there on an ongoing basis? There's room for short stories, but nothing that advances the soap opera, given how tight the issue-to-issue continuity of that run was.

You could easily fit in hundreds of new stories about Golden Age era Green Lantern, or Silver Age era Flash, since they mainly operated in a static status quo with minimal issue-to-issue continuity. But the continuity driven DC Comics of the 1980s onwards? Not so much.

[Vakanai]

The current superman, batman, wonderwoman.. Etc are not the same characters they were in 1938.characters were always replaced. Whether it's retcon or a new origin.

So? They're recognizable, mostly intact, still iconic. So what if they've been updated, rebooted, retconned and retooled? They're still close enough to the same people they started out as that a child and an elderly person would agree that yes Clark Kent is Superman and Bruce Wayne is Batman. And that's an amazing thing we shouldn't throw away.

[Ascended]

That would be dependent on how many of the old Titans stories are considered canon. If the idea is that the Wolfman/Perez run is canon, then how do you fit new stories in there on an ongoing basis? There's room for short stories, but nothing that advances the soap opera, given how tight the issue-to-issue continuity of that run was.

From what little I've heard, DC's basically just taking the broad strokes of continuity and the major developments, making adjustments to other stuff (like Bruce and Clark not being in the Golden Age), and leaving enough wiggle room for writers to insert new stuff. I think the new timeline is supposed to be about as tight as the Zero Hour timeline was and that wasn't every story and panel, just the big moments.

I don't see it as a problem anyway. Batman was in a full body cast in JL, losing his city to Bane in Batman, and doing whatever else in 'Tec, and nobody wonders how he finds the time for all this. Stories can always dance between the raindrops.

So? They're recognizable, mostly intact, still iconic. So what if they've been updated, rebooted, retconned and retooled? They're still close enough to the same people they started out as that a child and an elderly person would agree that yes Clark Kent is Superman and Bruce Wayne is Batman. And that's an amazing thing we shouldn't throw away.

The fact that they've grown and evolved is the main reason they're still here, I think. Without being able to ebb and flow with the currents of society I don't think any of them would have survived.

[Ascended]

The timeline changing to be a bit more flexible is the real news, if you ask me. However, I don't think it means the same thing others seem to assume it means, especially knowing that WB/AT&T are very much behind the 5G idea. But that's just my opinion...

So what's your theory?