So, Can the Titans Finally be Saved Now?

[Ascended]

I just thought of something... the most recent version of the Titans was working with the Justice League seeking out metahumans who got their powers due to Dark Nights Metal.

Just "season 3" them?

Sure. No worse than any other reason for them to still be together. I still think they shouldn't be Titans anymore at all, myself. Maybe if you expanded on the theme, went from "metahuman trafficking" to "social topics buried under a lot of superhero allegory?" Exploring superhero social issues with the Titans, who should probably be getting close to 30 by now......that actually could be interesting. Or maybe I'm still just giddy over how good Superman Smashes the Klan was, and I just want to see real things through the lens of the genre.

Okay. Random thought. Just re-name the Fab5/NTT. DC's got a branding problem where they can't decide if the Titans are the sidekicks or the 20-somethings. As a team, the NTT don't have much reason to remain Titans, since the threats they face as a group are often things any of them could handle solo. Wally fought the Anti-Monitor by himself; he doesn't need Dick's help to fight the Fearsome Five. Hell, Dick was friggin Batman. He doesn't need Wally's help to handle the Fearsome Five either. Vic's a living Mother Box. All of them have a decade of active experience, or more. Why are they wasting time with Queen Bee? Isn't there a multi-dimensional war they could be averting or something? I mean, if you really need a threat that would require them all working together? These are some serious badass people, the Royal Flush Gang just ain't gonna cut it.

So if you gotta keep the Fab5/NTT together, fine (still a mistake, I think) but call them something else. Give them a new mission statement (whatever it is), a new team name, and let them leave being Titans behind. The brand is too strongly tied to "Robin" and "Teens" I think, and two other generations have used it already, so let the kids have it. A gift from DC's GOAT generation.

There. Problem solved. The Titans brand is now firmly defined as belonging to whoever the current sidekicks are; a tradition passed down from one generation to the next that makes figuring out "the life" so much easier. And then you've got an old team under a new banner, with a new mission but a lifetime of experience. The Fab5/NTT are still together, but are free to move forward and build a new mythology, doing....whatever. And yeah, having to build a new brand isn't doing them a ton of favors, but it's not like they're benefiting a ton right now anyway. And if this group of characters can't do it, then we might as well walk away now because the market's doomed.

[Harpsikord]

I had an idea of keeping the whole "teams named after Greek myths" as part of a branding and launching the older Titans (Dick, Donna, Wally, Lilith, Garth, Kori, Vic as the roster) into a new team called the 'Olympians.' The Olympians are, after all, what succeeded the Titans of Myth and it continues the naming convention that was started when they were teens. It allows them to have a related name, and if there's a group of younger Titans members together then you can still argue that they're related. It wouldn't be the first time that the older Titans 'graduated' either, seeing as how the majority have now been members of the Justice League and quite a few of them headlined an Outsiders team after Graduation Day.

The problem therein though is the fact that I'm not sure that they don't work. The writing has been a little bit weird for certain runs that have the NTT and the Fab Five getting back together, but that isn't on the group itself as much as it is on the writers. As much as people complained here about Abnett's run it was outselling Percy's and then Glass' Teen Titans, which at least for Percy's run had the more profitable characters and for Glass's run is still currently ongoing and doesn't appear to be ending at least until the plans for 5G or whatever is coming soon begins. The writing left something to be desired, which I suspect also had to do with editorial meddling, but the characters themselves are the characters that people wanted to see and have stories told with. For all intents and purposes that should be the team that we still have, not the teens.

I do think that the characters, especially as a group, would sell decently under a different name but that we'd always have questions of... why are they not the Titans? Just like we have questions of why the Titans are seen as a b team now when they don't have to be. The right writer could and honestly should come along that puts the Titans back to facing legitimate threats like the Legion of Doom and Trigon and handling them on their own without League supervision, and doing it without screwing up. I really hate the idea presented that the Titans don't work well as a team because they care about each other like they're family. It should be the opposite. There's also that when it comes to outside media, because of the original cartoon, TT Go, the Titans show, and the DCAU the Titans to the general populace are Dick Grayson, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, Wonder Girl, etc.

We just need someone that would respect them and the team itself the way they deserve and who can write legitimate comic books well. Someone like... I dunno, Tom Taylor.

[Aahz]

The Titans really weren't exactly equal with the JL in terms of feats even when their stories were good. We have the first arc against Trigon, but after that they fight the likes of Deathstroke (who shouldn't be a League level threat on his own), the H.I.V.E (who are deliberately written as being pathetic), goods like Trident, Disruptor and the Puppeteer, and groups like the Brotherhood of Evil or worse, the Fearsome Five. Brother Blood and his cult ran circle around them their first few encounters. Compare that to the JL who has Superman, Wonder Woman, MM and GL on their roster (among others) and who frequently deal with threats like the White Martians, the host of heaven or Darkseid.

I like all these villains and the NTT run was full of great stories, but it was Bronze Age superhero fare and not the larger than life myth stuff that the JL is cemented as dealing with, at least now. Even with the actual Titans of Myth in the stories, the Titans seem more passive in going along with everything than the JL typically does.

At the time of the NTT, the the JLA wasn't frequently fighting White Martians or Darkside.
Appart from this their were several different Jsutice League Incarnation, NNT starred near the end of the Satellite JL, but after that came first JL Detroit and than Justice League Interantional, both not nearly as impressiv.
The classic Big Six Justice league line up didn't came back untill after the end of the NTT.

[Masterff]

Well, Bendis agrees with you about Conner at least, because that is indeed the pre-Flashpoint version he's using.

I am not talking about that....I talk about an aged up Version of the Johns TT Conner...

I call the current Conner the REBIRTH-VERSION....

I think part of the issue is that the Titans don't really have a motive or niche that sets them apart.

Nobody thinks the Doom Patrol is as important as the League. But the Patrol has their own niche and reason for existing, and their goals, purpose and role are all different enough from the League that you don't end up with comparisons.

Same goes for a lot of other teams, like the Outsiders and Suicide Squad and Teen Titans; they're not doing the same stuff the League is, so nobody really compares them.

The JSA and NTT are the ones who end up with these negative comparisons. Both teams consist of heroes who are the best of the best for their generation, and both teams work together to defeat world-ending threats so big their members couldn't handle it solo. Best heroes of their generation? Working against huge threats? That's exactly what the League does.

So find a different reason for the NTT and JSA to exist and they won't be compared to the League as much. Make the JSA sanctioned and run by the US government. Do something equally different with the Titans (and no, "friendship is magic" does not, has not, and will not work) and they won't be compared to the League as often either.

Thats ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!
It would hurt the Titans Franchise even more...

BEST what you can do is make the TITANS INDEPENDENT and work on the NORMAL POWER LEVELS!!!!
Use them to fight the same Villains/Threats like the JL but use them as MODERN VERSION of JL....

The Titans dont need their own niche etc. they are in fact more powerful than the JL:

FLASH FAMILY: Bart (TT) and Wally (TITANS) are more powerful than Barry (JL)
ARROW FAMILY: Arsenal (TITANS) has a broader sets of skills than Green Arrow
BATFAMILY: Tim is maybe better detective/inventor than Bruce and Dick is also close to Bruce
WONDER-FAMILY: Donna is close to Diana
AQUAMAN FAMILY: Tempest is maybe even more powerful than Aquaman
MARTIANS: Miss Martian is in YJ Anime probably more powerful than Martian Manhunter

and they have RAVEN who is considered as one of the most powerful beings in the DC UNIVERSE...

Give them a niche on their own would be INCREDIBLE WRONG...because it would imply that the JL are the only ones who can fight the big villains and make the Titans the B-TEAM...

Best what you can do is put Tims and Dicks Generation together (2 different Towers like they were already in the DC History) and show that the Titans are even more powerful in some fields and be as powerful as the JL is...

[Lee]

Give them a niche on their own would be INCREDIBLE WRONG...because it would imply that the JL are the only ones who can fight the big villains and make the Titans the B-TEAM...

Best what you can do is put Tims and Dicks Generation together (2 different Towers like they were already in the DC History) and show that the Titans are even more powerful in some fields and be as powerful as the JL is...

What would the series actually be about though? What's the premise of the book?

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, I'm not so sure of that. I don't know if the Titans villains are that much more obscure or less regular than the League's and at the same time, I think the NTT run alone gives them at least a solid foundation.

The League is comprised of characters who are stars of their own IPs and have plenty of iconic villains on their own before we gather them together as a team.
I wouldn't say some of their main villains are all that obscure due to other media (like Slade, Blackfire, Trigon, etc) but they don't have many beyond that. It's a solid foundation, but it's also all that they have so far for the most part. And we know how new villains and characters don't always thrive in today's market, so good luck expanding their rogues gallery.

And then you have cases like when Deathstroke soloed an entire team of Leaguers including a Flash and Green Lantern. Also, I don't know if that's completely relevant to the popularity of a franchise. I'm pretty sure that Superman can take out all of Batman's rogues and Spider-Man's rogues by himself, yet the latter two are consistently more popular than the former. No offense to Superman because I love Superman. However, it's not about the strength of the character and their villains. It's about maintaining at least the perception that the villains and character are well-developed characters who can make for compelling stories.

The Slade thing isn't the best example, since that is a much maligned piece of writing from a very maligned story. While he has been able to stand up to the Titans in the past, he needed Terra to do most of the work in taking them down and Starire was able to stand up to him completely on her own. The Titans themselves, with more experience, should logically be able to defeat him as a solo threat, let alone the League.

And the Slade thing is an example of popularity dictating in-story logic, he's the villainous equivalent of Bat-God. It's more believable for Superman to take out mooks like the Fearsome Five who are long established as being b-listers than it is for Slade to take out the JL when he used to not even want to face their kids in direct combat all at once. And some comments keep saying the Titans are an equal to the team and that the League's status as the best of the best shouldn't prevent the Titans from being seen the same way in and out of universe. But when we go back to pretty much the only iconic run the Titans have, the stories don't back that up too much. Maybe when the Titans of Myth are around (but even then they have the entire Amazon nation and the Olympian gods backing them up) but that's about it.

Eh. I'm pretty sure their most famous and popular villain, though, is Deathstroke. And he's, for all intents and purposes, just a guy. But he's an awesome character, so that's why he's popular.

I said Trigon was their major League-level threat, not that he was the most popular. And the first Trigon story was the most effective and conveying that the Titans could be equal to the League in that they defeated him themselves, but they didn't have a prayer against him in the second one and were pretty much guests in their own story.

The problem with Slade's popularity is that he's no longer just associated with the Titans. He's probably more popular as a solo character than most of the Titans are by themselves, and just as likely to be pitted against Batman or the JL than them. He's outgrown the franchise. He's their most popular villain, but not considered a Titans exclusive anymore. He should be, but he isn't.

[Godlike13]

I had an idea of keeping the whole "teams named after Greek myths" as part of a branding and launching the older Titans (Dick, Donna, Wally, Lilith, Garth, Kori, Vic as the roster) into a new team called the 'Olympians.' The Olympians are, after all, what succeeded the Titans of Myth and it continues the naming convention that was started when they were teens. It allows them to have a related name, and if there's a group of younger Titans members together then you can still argue that they're related. It wouldn't be the first time that the older Titans 'graduated' either, seeing as how the majority have now been members of the Justice League and quite a few of them headlined an Outsiders team after Graduation Day.

The problem therein though is the fact that I'm not sure that they don't work. The writing has been a little bit weird for certain runs that have the NTT and the Fab Five getting back together, but that isn't on the group itself as much as it is on the writers. As much as people complained here about Abnett's run it was outselling Percy's and then Glass' Teen Titans, which at least for Percy's run had the more profitable characters and for Glass's run is still currently ongoing and doesn't appear to be ending at least until the plans for 5G or whatever is coming soon begins. The writing left something to be desired, which I suspect also had to do with editorial meddling, but the characters themselves are the characters that people wanted to see and have stories told with. For all intents and purposes that should be the team that we still have, not the teens.

I do think that the characters, especially as a group, would sell decently under a different name but that we'd always have questions of... why are they not the Titans? Just like we have questions of why the Titans are seen as a b team now when they don't have to be. The right writer could and honestly should come along that puts the Titans back to facing legitimate threats like the Legion of Doom and Trigon and handling them on their own without League supervision, and doing it without screwing up. I really hate the idea presented that the Titans don't work well as a team because they care about each other like they're family. It should be the opposite. There's also that when it comes to outside media, because of the original cartoon, TT Go, the Titans show, and the DCAU the Titans to the general populace are Dick Grayson, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, Wonder Girl, etc.

We just need someone that would respect them and the team itself the way they deserve and who can write legitimate comic books well. Someone like... I dunno, Tom Taylor.

Ya, here is the thing with the Titans. It has things going for it that a company wants in a superhero team. A degree of audience appeal and other media exposure. Before they pushed Suicide Squad to the moon and increased its status, which wasn't done through quality, Titans was probably DC's 2nd or 3rd most successful team franchise. Even now lets say they launch a line of various team books, with equal creative and marketing support, i'd bet a Titans book would still rank 2 or 3 in how it would do compare to DCs other team books. It doesn't really make sense that Titans is supported like it is in comics. We getting hung up on things that are easily fixable. Direction, thats easy to fix, create. Quality, well you get with you put in when it comes to that.
The question really isn't can Titans be saved now, but if will the Titans be a brand the comic division actually want to invest into again. Cause thats the real issue here. They don't bother to come up with new ideas for it, they support it with mediocre creative talent, and they offer no brand protection when it comes to standards or quality. People are turning on the brand itself for an environment it isn't responsible for. Its much like with whats going on with Nightwing right now.

[Lee]

I haven't been reading the current Teen Titans run, but wouldn't characters like Djinn and Roundhouse be considered new ideas?

[Ascended]

The question really isn't can Titans be saved now, but if will the Titans be a brand the comic division actually want to invest into again. Cause thats the real issue here. They don't bother to come up with new ideas, they support it with mediocre creative talent, and they offer no brand protection when it comes to standards or quality. People are turning on the brand itself for an environment it isn't responsible for. Its much like with whats going on with Nightwing right now.

That's exactly it. DC has to put the effort in before the Titans see any better quality. But for the book to get fixed that renewed effort has to be there, so I figured that was a given in this hypothetical discussion.

And ultimately, quality fixes most problems anyway. A Titans book that did the same things that the book has done for the last thirty years *could* be successful if done well, even when the exact same formula has failed over and over and over again, simply on the strength of skilled craft. But if you do that, then the book crashes and burns as soon as that quality creative team leaves.

For the IP to actually have legs again, it not only needs investment from DC but it needs a premise and function that is in and of itself sustainable, beyond concerns about quality. Yeah, a fantastic idea will still fail if its not done well, but the foundation and basic concept have to be workable in order for a book to last beyond a single creative team.

[Ascended]

Thats ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!

Hey if you think the Titans will work doing the same thing that has caused their book to flounder in the past, you do you. For myself, I've seen far too many reunion titles crash and burn and have no reason to think another attempt at the same thing would generate a different result.

[Vordan]

I haven't been reading the current Teen Titans run, but wouldn't characters like Djinn and Roundhouse be considered new ideas?

I would consider them to be new. Hell I’ve even enjoyed Glass’s TT run overall. But what a lot of people are talking about is a Hickman style reinvention of what it means to be a Titan. It’s necessary because what made the Titans great in the past doesn’t seem to work now. The core Titans aren’t kids or young adults anymore, they’re full fledged adults, so they’re competing directly with the League. Unlike the JSA which can play the “past their prime mentors training the new generation” the Titans haven’t been able to establish a niche for themselves.

For me personally? I think the Titans should be your “socially relevant” team. The current hot topics that the League wouldn’t be allowed to come near? Those should be what the Titans deal with. Refugees, protests, corruption, religion, stuff that normally makes the Big 2 **** their pants. Of course it should seek to explore that stuff through the lenses of cape comics where they fight the bad guy, and it could all end horribly like Champions under Waid did over at Marvel, but it would give them a mandate that explains WHY the Titans are worth reading over their mentors in the League.

[Tzigone]

For me personally? I think the Titans should be your “socially relevant” team. The current hot topics that the League wouldn’t be allowed to come near? Those should be what the Titans deal with. Refugees, protests, corruption, religion, stuff that normally makes the Big 2 **** their pants. Of course it should seek to explore that stuff through the lenses of cape comics where they fight the bad guy, and it could all end horribly like Champions under Waid did over at Marvel, but it would give them a mandate that explains WHY the Titans are worth reading over their mentors in the League.

For me that only works if the Titans are made of up characters that have a history of being particularly interested "socially relevant" issues - I don't like re-inventing long-established characters or changing their primary motivations/characterizations to suit the team dynamic. Changing up one or two (or introducing new ones) is acceptable (preferably those that aren't already strongly defined, haven't had solo books, etc.), but not 5 or 6. And then you have to have differences of opinion among the team on certain issues, because them all agreeing on every issue is a stretch to believe (even though people do tend to have beliefs shaped by their political party rather than just picking their party based on beliefs, in the US, at least so going with the group isn't shocking) but they still have to be on the same team even when members fundamentally disagree on certain issues - with political polarization in the US (I assume it to be US-based team), there could be a lesson to learn on listening to each other, I guess.. And you really, really need to stay away from "after school special" issues. I hate those. The primary purpose of a comic should be to entertain, with moralizing as a secondary even when trying to drive lesson home. It's like there are some of O'Neil's old ones where I agree with the message, but it goes over like an anvil and completely ruins the entertainment value. Same for some new ones.

I, personally, like battles of good v. evil. Occasional stories dealing with "issues" are good and can further characterization or spur thoughts on real-world issues, but I wouldn't care for a title dominated by it. I want to be entertained, not preached to, and especially not with the same lessons over and over again.

Also, don't think corruption is a topic most comic characters shy away from these days - it's a simple, easy one because "corruption = bad" is a non-controversial message. The controversial part is if all the corruption is one one side (only one political party corrupt, businesses but not charities corrupt, etc.) or if you use a very obvious sub-in for a real entity.

Also, not at all interested if it all ends horribly. I like comics for good triumphing over evil. The darker, grimmer, more cynical setup isn't for me.


I don't mind a mandate, I just don't think a team needs one, and think plenty of teams do well without them. They need to be interesting and fun and well-written to motivate people to read them, IMO.

[phonogram12]

For me personally? I think the Titans should be your “socially relevant” team. The current hot topics that the League wouldn’t be allowed to come near? Those should be what the Titans deal with. Refugees, protests, corruption, religion, stuff that normally makes the Big 2 **** their pants. Of course it should seek to explore that stuff through the lenses of cape comics where they fight the bad guy, and it could all end horribly like Champions under Waid did over at Marvel, but it would give them a mandate that explains WHY the Titans are worth reading over their mentors in the League.

This is actually a pretty brilliant idea, especially considering the classic NTT lineup. You have an alien refugee, a disabled black man, a traumatized young woman raised by a religious cult, and a former working class circus kid who was later raised among the 1%.

I would read this in a heartbeat.

[SiegePerilous02]

At the time of the NTT, the the JLA wasn't frequently fighting White Martians or Darkside.
Appart from this their were several different Jsutice League Incarnation, NNT starred near the end of the Satellite JL, but after that came first JL Detroit and than Justice League Interantional, both not nearly as impressiv.
The classic Big Six Justice league line up didn't came back untill after the end of the NTT.

That's part of the problem though. It wasn't as much of an issue back then, but since then the JL have been more consistently tackling threats like Maggedon and Asmodel and invasions from the 5th dimension. People want the Titans to be written as their equals right now, but there is too much of a time gap between their heyday and now (comics wise) where there was no build up in threats and the nostalgia reunions like to use the same old **** that shouldn't believably challenge the Titans themselves anymore (including Slade) let alone the League.

Like Hickman is doing wonders for the X-Men, but in comparison he has MUCH more to work with in addition to his own inventions. After Byrne left Claremont, we still got additions like Rogue, Psylocke, the New Mutants, the Brood, Apocalypse, Sinister etc. which laid the foundation for further expansion in the 90s and the Morrison run. With the Titans after Perez left we got...Danny Chase, Azrael, the Hybrid, Lord Chaos and Godiva

Now if the Titans franchise would be given a shot in the arm again, I expect a lot of classic villains to be used and I would still want them to in order to get revamped. But some new villains badly need to be invented, or even pull in villains that are sort of already tied to them through characters or creators. Starfire is on the team, but instead of relying just on Blackfire as a threat, bring in Lady Styx. Wolfman and Perez wrote the original COIE, so use some of Morrison's additions like Nix Uotan or the Gentry. Have them visit Lady Quark and the Forerunners on Earth-whatever and establish some new allies and villains there.

[Midnight_v]

Seems like the answer to the ops question is. "No. Not ONLY by virtue of the recent leadership change".

It appears there's a lot of pieces missing to this puzzle.


Huh... I'm reminded of Captain Marvel and the Marvel family the shazam etc etc.

Hard for shazam to shine under dc, or for his family to get any real traction.

I was speaking to another poster about this and Black Adam is another villain that has juuuuust about graduated to "Justice League" villain as in Major Events he's becoming more and more likely
to be fighting supes on the cover. YMMV.

Max Lord as well, but specifically he was a "I can't believe its not the Justice League/Captain Atom and the gang" villian who as soon as he got to be a big problem via killing Ted Kord.

The trinity stepped in with Wonder Woman is who "ending" it in that run.

So its not just deathstroke. Its almost as if DC only has the one team and they struggle with them and elsewhere.

JLark... works because its threats superman shouldn't be dealing with. Thought wonder woman has some strong prescience there, so the trinity ala main Justice League might absorb anything that gets to big for them too.

*shrug* it would be cool though if it wasn't like this.