So, Can the Titans Finally be Saved Now?

[Godlike13]

I disagree, myself (obviously). I think the individuals have become lost in the "We're Titans! We're friends, and it's so f*cking magical we vomit rainbows together while holding hands and singing friendship songs!" You know what, maybe if Raven was written a little more interesting, and Vic was allowed to get past his angst, and anyone had even a vague idea of who and what Donna is, there'd be something more interesting going on.

And its true that some reunions have done things differently. The latest one made them sidekicks to the League and I don't think anyone liked that. Devin Grayson tried to make the Titans a training ground, but had more teachers than students. Johns' Titans wasn't even about the NTT, it was about Tim and his generation.

I mean, the Titans are going to fail no matter what, until and unless DC decides to treat it like something other than a dumpster fire and a place to quarantine characters they can't get rid of but don't want. But every single reunion, regardless of the excuse for it, has treated the book and characters like a recycled NTT. And it has never worked or been sustainable. The last time it was even halfway sustainable was Devin Grayson, and that survived as long as it did largely because the notion of a NTT reunion was still a new one. And that was over twenty years ago now I think.

Reunions don't work. And that's not me talking, that's sales history. The only reasons for a reunion title is nostalgia and to give DC a place to dump these characters where they can be ineffectual and ignored by the rest of the DCU (until people need to die for an Event, anyway). Neither of these things is a valid reason for a reunion.



Nah, the Titans are in limbo or stuck in a Titans book because DC misunderstood what made Wolfman's book work, and tried to keep the Titans stuck in a single shape and status quo without recognizing that the growth is what made the book work so well. And over time those characters went from being among DC's most popular to characters constantly handled poorly, and fans gave up and moved on. Just like the NTT should move on.

Reunions don't work partially because DC keeps trying to send these guys back to college when they should be beyond that point. That's the real rub, I think. All of DC exists in an eternal moment in time. Except for these guys. They got to grow up, that journey is what made them popular and made the book work. Trapping them in amber, as if they're still learning lessons Wolfman got past thirty-odd years ago, is missing what made the Titans matter in the first place, and the only way to fix that is to let the characters move on. That *could* happen in a reunion title, hypothetically. But it's far more likely to happen and be done well if DC stops living in the past. Why isn't Raven in Justice League Dark, for example, or some other magic based title/team? People here say she's supposed to be one of the most powerful mages in the DCU, yet she's still a Titan (if she gets used at all) and more often than not a TEEN Titan? How does this not sound wrong to everyone else?

Titans isn’t a solo book, sort Donna out and come up with an individual direction for her and what exactly does that do for the Titans. Titans isn’t a Donna solo, or a Raven solo, etc. Did Grayson do jack crap for Titans Hunt. If the team itself is written more interesting, the characters that make up the team will be more interesting. Creator go to the “were Titans” garbage so they can ignore having to actually come up or evolve the team as a concept. Be it with NTT, or the Fab 5. Sort the characters out and the Titans as a team still remains a stale does nothing team people deem characters too good for.

And the whole perception that Titans is college, and that a JL B or C book are actually positional better, is a testament to how taken for granted the Titans as a team is. Titans most popular characters “graduating” to JL B squads only reinforces the Titans as a stepping stone.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Robin is the most iconic member of the Titans. They aren't going to remove Robin from the Titans brand, and because Robin will always be a teen in DC's eyes it is impossible to separate the Titans brand from being about teen heroes. They are too interwoven to ever be just an adult focused team.

Correction: Dick Grayson is the most iconic member of the Titans. Tim Drake, for the longest time, was never associated with the Titans and instead had his own team: Young Justice. Meanwhile, the Titans were Dick's generation and that's how it was until the Graduation Day storyline. And even when Tim's generation did join the Titans, it was basically just the YJ members getting tutored by the adult Titans. And importing the YJ onto the Titans turned out to be a mistake. And now, those characters are all back on Young Justice. Damian doesn't really need to be a Titan either. Damian doesn't even need to be on a team with people his own age cuz unlike Dick, I just don't think he has the personality for it.

So why can't Dick and Wally's generation move on and be on teams with the other adult heroes rather than having to be stuck in the younger Titans brand? Wally and Roy have done it before with moving on and being on adult teams like the JL. Starfire and Cyborg are on an adult JL team now. Just do more of that.

Because the Titans franchise is its own mythology. And this is a topic that's been touched on in another thread, but if the only adult team in the DC Universe is the Justice League and its satellite teams, then the DCU becomes boring. As Lee Stone has said here, I believe, DC needs an X-Men-like team again. They need another adult team that is not the Justice League just like the X-Men are not the Avengers and have their own world. The Titans were that for a long time and had their own mythos to compete with the X-Men. They can be that again if only DC would, you know, let them be instead of relegating them to the "kid team."

[Ascended]

Titans isn’t a solo book, sort Donna out and come up with an individual direction for her and what exactly does that do for the Titans. Titans isn’t a Donna solo, or a Raven solo, etc. Did Grayson do jack crap for Titans Hunt. If the team itself is written more interesting, the characters that make up the team will be more interesting. Creator go to the “were Titans” garbage so they can ignore having to actually come up or evolve the team as a concept. Be it with NTT, or the Fab 5. Sort the characters out and the Titans as a team still remains a stale does nothing team people deem characters too good for.

No, it's not a solo book. It's a team book that made its name (long ago now) on the strong character dynamics and personal development of the members. And you're arguing against the characters getting the same kind of treatment now because....why?

If you figure out what Donna's deal is, what does that give the Titans? A member who isn't a complete hot mess, for one thing. A character who can bring her own flavor of problems and challenges to the page. A character who can bounce off other characters in more entertaining, well rounded, and believable ways because Donna now actually has a personality and history that make sense (or is at least consistent). How, exactly, is the current Donna going to work in a ensemble setting? Is she a drunk? Is she Diana's magic clone sister? Is she an orphan who was adopted by Amazons? Is she the product of actual titans, or the Harbinger of the Multiverse, or what? Because all of those bring some very different perspectives with them. How is Donna supposed to interact with anyone else when we don't actually know who Donna is in the first place? If you "fix" Donna, you've got a better character. Better characters mean better character interactions. Better character interactions means a more entertaining ensemble cast. A more entertaining ensemble cast means a better book and higher sales.

What exactly does Donna bring to the table as she is right now?

Oh, and by the same token, it doesn't matter how well developed or utilized the individuals are if the team concept and purpose is halfassed. Dick and the rest could be in the midst of their best runs ever as individual characters, and if the team book has them together just because nostalgia and friendship are magic, that won't cut it either. You need both; strong individual members and a strong team dynamic. Right now the Titans have neither.

And the whole perception that Titans is college, and that a JL B or C book are actually positional better, is a testament to how taken for granted the Titans as a team is. Titans most popular characters “graduating” to JL B squads only reinforces the Titans as a stepping stone.

I said JLD **or** some other magic based title. Doesn't have to be Dark, that's just the first "magic book" that came to mind. But if it were Dark? From everything I hear that book is actually good. So yeah, I'd happily take that. I'll gladly take Raven in a well written book that can say something new with her instead of a crap book that does nothing new, says nothing new, and even does old things poorly.

Hell if I had it my way, Raven would join the Birds of Prey.

[Godlike13]

Before NTT did anything it created a new overall purpose and reinvented the team as we knew it. With new members, new villains, and a level of world building the Titans hasn’t seen since. The dynamics and personal development of the members naturally followed with what they were doing with the team as a whole. As the Titans is now, Donna not being a hot mess would actually be detrimental. Cause she’d be “fixed” and so and so would need to be fixed now. She’d just be in the same position Nightwing is in when it comes to the Titans as it is currently.

JL Dark and Odyssey are just JL B teams. They aren’t lighting up the charts anymore then the last Titans book did. Overall Titans being a well written book that can say new things would be infinitely better for the likes of Raven then a JL B book that most likely will lead to very little for the character in the grand scheme of things. The idea that the Titans can’t say anything new and is inherently lesser to even JL B squads just perpetuates DC’s comic side purposeful burial of the team and brand.

[Restingvoice]

Correction: Dick Grayson is the most iconic member of the Titans. Tim Drake, for the longest time, was never associated with the Titans and instead had his own team: Young Justice. Meanwhile, the Titans were Dick's generation and that's how it was until the Graduation Day storyline. And even when Tim's generation did join the Titans, it was basically just the YJ members getting tutored by the adult Titans. And importing the YJ onto the Titans turned out to be a mistake. And now, those characters are all back on Young Justice. Damian doesn't really need to be a Titan either. Damian doesn't even need to be on a team with people his own age cuz unlike Dick, I just don't think he has the personality for it.



Because the Titans franchise is its own mythology. And this is a topic that's been touched on in another thread, but if the only adult team in the DC Universe is the Justice League and its satellite teams, then the DCU becomes boring. As Lee Stone has said here, I believe, DC needs an X-Men-like team again. They need another adult team that is not the Justice League just like the X-Men are not the Avengers and have their own world. The Titans were that for a long time and had their own mythos to compete with the X-Men. They can be that again if only DC would, you know, let them be instead of relegating them to the "kid team."

DC and the public, in general, don't really care which Robin is in Titans. The most popular is still the Teen Titans cartoon Robin who dates Starfire which means Dick Grayson, but they've been mixing various Robins in the young heroes team. The Robin of Young Justice was Dick until they introduce Tim in season 2. Titans is Dick and then Jason as Dick transitions into Nightwing. In the new cartoon, it's Damian. Dick was in the past, but they skip over Tim and Jason but still using Dick's popular team members for Damian.

So for all intents and purposes, in DC's eyes, they're all the same, as long as there's a Robin in a young heroes team. It doesn't even matter that it's Young Justice or Titans. DC views both as the same.

The ones who care are about the details are longtime readers/writers and people who became fans of those other media, but DC still view all people as one big giant net, so even though fans of those different media don't really blend, DC wants that synergy and some of those concepts starts to bleed into the comics like Damian leading Dick's old team but with New 52 Wally Kid Flash

But the point is, DC general doesn't care about the details, and if they don't care, it's up to the writers to bring in differentiating concepts.

All of you say is true and the writers and fans do care about it, but DC general overseer doesn't, and if the writers can't provide a pitch that can differentiate clearly between Titans, Teen Titans, and Young Justice for them to sell, and by that, I mean selling them currently, what do each of the team means in the present day... then they're going to treat all of them as one property, or just use one and forget the others.

Young Justice was brought back because Bendis if he didn't pitch it, would it ever be revived? No, because DC only needs or wants one young heroes team and they don't think about what difference would it make having both Teen Titans and Young Justice. They even erased Titans off existence for a while.

Titans sell though. Middling, but sells, so fans do stick for the characters even if they don't have a concept that attracts me personally. I personally want more out of Titans, something that can make me look at them beyond just having characters I'm interested in, but there are enough fans to carry it as is.

The one who wants differentiating strong concept is DC and well, fans like me, so as long as there are people of DC who require that out of the team to do a revival, then the writers need to work for it. If not, then they can just go like they always do.

[Ascended]

Before NTT did anything it created a new overall purpose and reinvented the team as we knew it. With new members, new villains, and a level of world building the Titans hasn’t seen since. The dynamics and personal development of the members naturally followed with what they were doing with the team as a whole. As the Titans is now, Donna not being a hot mess would actually be detrimental. Cause she’d be “fixed” and so and so would need to be fixed now. She’d just be in the same position Nightwing is in when it comes to the Titans as it is currently.

Except Dick has a solo book where all of his character development is supposed to happen. For Donna and the others, their character development happens in the pages of the Titans. Come on man, you can't be saying that it's a good thing Donna Troy is the trainwreck she is. Aren't you tired of reading "Who Is Donna Troy?"

JL Dark and Odyssey are just JL B teams. They aren’t lighting up the charts anymore then the last Titans book did. Overall Titans being a well written book that can say new things would be infinitely better for the likes of Raven then a JL B book that most likely will lead to very little for the character in the grand scheme of things. The idea that the Titans can’t say anything new and is inherently lesser to even JL B squads just perpetuates DC’s comic side purposeful burial of the team and brand.

Considering that no Titans book exists right now? Yeah, a League B team would be much preferable. But the point is that JLD is actually a good book. Which the Titans, when they have a book at all, usually isn't. You're getting hung up on a random example; it's not about JLD and whether the Titans are supposed to "graduate" to the League, it's about the characters being in a quality book that is worth reading. I'll take any of the Titans in any different book if it means they're worth reading about again. I don't care if it's a League book of Seven Soldiers of Victory or a solo or Zoo Crew or what it is.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

DC and the public, in general, don't really care which Robin is in Titans. The most popular is still the Teen Titans cartoon Robin who dates Starfire which means Dick Grayson, but they've been mixing various Robins in the young heroes team. The Robin of Young Justice was Dick until they introduce Tim in season 2. Titans is Dick and then Jason as Dick transitions into Nightwing. In the new cartoon, it's Damian. Dick was in the past, but they skip over Tim and Jason but still using Dick's popular team members for Damian.

So for all intents and purposes, in DC's eyes, they're all the same, as long as there's a Robin in a young heroes team. It doesn't even matter that it's Young Justice or Titans. DC views both as the same.

Well again, we are talking about the comics, not necessarily other media, but I think that things like the Titans TV series and even Young Justice have at least increased the awareness of the fact that Dick is no longer Robin. I think a lot of the general public actually are aware of Nightwing and of the fact that there have been multiple Robins. I mean, it's been adapted into enough TV shows and cartoons by now.

The ones who care are about the details are longtime readers/writers and people who became fans of those other media, but DC still view all people as one big giant net, so even though fans of those different media don't really blend, DC wants that synergy and some of those concepts starts to bleed into the comics like Damian leading Dick's old team but with New 52 Wally Kid Flash

I mean, Damian isn't even leading Dick's old team as of now. He's leading his own team: Emiko, Wallace, Roundhouse, Djinn, and Crush. I think Beast Boy and Raven have officially left the building and Starfire is reunited with Cyborg. So, then the question becomes: why call them the Teen Titans if none of the classic members of the Titans are actually on the team? Just call them something else.

All of you say is true and the writers and fans do care about it, but DC general overseer doesn't, and if the writers can't provide a pitch that can differentiate clearly between Titans, Teen Titans, and Young Justice for them to sell, and by that, I mean selling them currently, what do each of the team means in the present day... then they're going to treat all of them as one property, or just use one and forget the others.

I think a lot of what you're saying has been a symptom of DC's now-former management, though.

Young Justice was brought back because Bendis if he didn't pitch it, would it ever be revived? No, because DC only needs or wants one young heroes team and they don't think about what difference would it make having both Teen Titans and Young Justice. They even erased Titans off existence for a while.

Yeah, but it's still back.

The one who wants differentiating strong concept is DC and well, fans like me, so as long as there are people of DC who require that out of the team to do a revival, then the writers need to work for it. If not, then they can just go like they always do.

That's exactly what I'm advocating for.

[Godlike13]

Except Dick has a solo book where all of his character development is supposed to happen. For Donna and the others, their character development happens in the pages of the Titans. Come on man, you can't be saying that it's a good thing Donna Troy is the trainwreck she is. Aren't you tired of reading "Who Is Donna Troy?"

Considering that no Titans book exists right now? Yeah, a League B team would be much preferable. But the point is that JLD is actually a good book. Which the Titans, when they have a book at all, usually isn't. You're getting hung up on a random example; it's not about JLD and whether the Titans are supposed to "graduate" to the League, it's about the characters being in a quality book that is worth reading. I'll take any of the Titans in any different book if it means they're worth reading about again. I don't care if it's a League book of Seven Soldiers of Victory or a solo or Zoo Crew or what it is.

Thats the trap. As long as the purpose of Titans books remains homeless center for struggling characters with nothing else, success and popularity is actually detrimental for the characters in it. Unless Donna is a hot mess with nowhere else to go, Donna won’t get any development. Like we see with Dick when it comes to the Titans now. The better off a character is, the less Titans as it currently is has to offer the character. As much as I’m tired of "Who Is Donna Troy?" I’m tired of the Titans being nothing but a containment team for a bunch of hot messes.

[Agent Z]

I do agree with Ascended and Godlike that just putting the Titans together again may not be a good idea. I do find it might be best to let some of them be fixed by their parent franchise or develop with other characters they are connected with:

Have Donna and Garth work with Wonder Woman and Aquaman again.

Do a story with Roy, Cheshire and Artemis developing other parts of Roy's history like his time with Checkmate.

I hear Flash Forward is handling Wally well.

[manwhohaseverything]

I fail to see how titans as a team and as whole benefits from that. You are still basically wasting away a valuable ip while "fixing" characters . The team isn't some random popular characters thrown in to create a hodgepodge. These characters have relationships and similar goal. That's why they became a team.for example, jon and damian are supersons because they are sons of batman and superman, also they share a goal to surpass their fathers, they became brothers in arms. The relationship/connection exist prior to formation of the team,not vice versa. Fixing individual character would have minimum baring on the titans franchise because team itself is more valuable than individual characters and is the draw.

[Korath]

It IS tricky, finding a place for the adult Titans, both functionally and thematically.

The Justice League - Earth's Greatest Defenders. Organizational capabilities to bring everyone else together when bad stuff goes down.
Outsiders - Batman's Dark Ops group.
Teen Titans - Teenage heroes hanging out, growing up, and angsting up the place with their teen drama.
Young Justice - Even younger super-heroes, having fun in a kid-friendly way.
JSA - Old heroes showing younger whippersnappers how its done while legacying up a storm.
Green Lantern Corps - Earth's great, but there's a 100 billion galaxies to protect.
Legion - Hi, we're the future, and we also need protecting.
Hero Hotline - Neighborhood heroing.
Doom Patrol - Y'all aren't ready for the weirdness we protect you from.
Justice League Dark (worst. name. ever.) - We need an organized response to evil magic users.
New Guardians - While y'all are smacking around Starro, we're going to be over here protecting the future of humanity. Please just ignore us, m'kay?
Global Guardians - Yeah, we're mostly stereotypes, but isn't it nice that SOMEONE is paying attention to the rest of the planet?
Suicide Squad - Dark Ops that Batman wouldn't approve of, with a high body count.
Metal Man - Robot on Robot action
Inferior 5 - You want parodies? We got parodies!
Challengers of the Unknown - Fantastic Four adventures, minus the super-powers!
The Terrifics - A Fantastic Four homage that got out of hand?
Rip Hunter and the Time Masters - Challengers of the Unknown, plus time travel!
Sea Devils - Challengers of the Unknown, plus scuba gear!
Cave Carson - Challengers of the Unknown, underground!

So, what thematic/functional niche do the adult Titans fit, these days? For all intents, they're pretty much fully functioning extended members of the Justice League. If they're actually hanging out together, what's their hook? Are they a proactive Justice League team sent to discover and snuff out threats before they metastasize? Do they tour the country reaching out to young people with powers encouraging them to "say no" to super villainy? Are they a melancholy commentary about adults holding on to their teenage glory years?What makes them something other than another Justice League team?

I honestly don't know how they fit.

You've forgotten the Justice League Odyssey (a.k.a. "We're dealing with the Godliest Darkseid in decades") or the poor Immortal Men (who have already been retconned out of existence I'm afraid) but even without them, it's already quite the list when you write it down.

It does make harder for adult Titans, especially those who are the most redundant with the former mentors in capacities to stand on their own, even without all the insanities regarding their origins, relationships, pasts, etc.

[manwhohaseverything]

Young justice is older than teen titans currently, though. Young justice being for kids is debatable.
How about this
Titans- group of heroes wayyyy too old for this superhero nonsense.

[king81992]

Young justice is older than teen titans currently, though. Young justice being for kids is debatable.
How about this
Titans- group of heroes wayyyy too old for this superhero nonsense.

Titans- Heroes on wacky, random adventures with less angst and character development/ retooling.

[Korath]

I just realized something : the biggest weakness of the (adult) Titans is the expectation that their fans have and which are largely ingrained into an even larger base, simply because of who they are.

I mean, Outsiders, Doom Patrol, The Terrifics... Nobody expect the members of those teams to be out there, outsmarting and going toe to toe with the worst DC has to offer. Nobody's here expecting Black Lightning to scuffle with Darkseid, or Mr. Terrific with Brainiac, at least not in a recurring way.

While the characters of those teams are great, they aren't considered as a part of the "tier" where such threat are dealt with most often (the Superman, Wonder Woman and Justice League level, in a sense).

But the Titans ? They've got a Flash at least as experienced as Barry; they have bloody Nightwing, who was Batman, and a damn good one at that. They have Donna and Garth, who are really liked by their fans and indeed close to the level of their mentor. Even "lesser" known Titans such as Arsenal and Lilith aren't that weak - if less known indeed. And the NTT have been created to be able to go toe to toe with the Justice League, be it Cyborg (who has been a member for close to ten years now), Starfire or Raven (Beast Boy is in a very awkward place I find, but even he isn't that weak).

For all intent and purpose, fans expects - I expect - them to deal with large threats. I may be in a minority of course, but the idea of putting together Dick, Wally, Donna, Koriand'r, Victor and others, just to have them deal with low level crooks isn't exactly appealing.

But the problem is that the Justice League has cornered the market for those level of danger. Sure, sometimes other characters can be brought in, like in Justice League Dark and Odyssey, but they are never the former sidekicks and rarely the New Teen Titans themselves (even if Odyssey did want to use them, and is currently toying with them in a way which I like but I perfectly understand why others fans of those two characters could be extremely disappointed and angry at the book).

So, yeah. Are we, as readers, actually the liability of the Titans ? Are we what prevent them to be great, because we want them to be GREAT ?

[Digifiend]

I mean, Damian isn't even leading Dick's old team as of now. He's leading his own team: Emiko, Wallace, Roundhouse, Djinn, and Crush. I think Beast Boy and Raven have officially left the building and Starfire is reunited with Cyborg. So, then the question becomes: why call them the Teen Titans if none of the classic members of the Titans are actually on the team? Just call them something else.

Beast Boy and Raven went onto Nightwing's Titans team, yeah. Of course with him amnesiac, Donna brainwashed, and the book cancelled, that team is in a very odd place right now. Leaderless and out of focus, but not disbanded.

Do a story with Roy, Cheshire and Artemis developing other parts of Roy's history like his time with Checkmate.

Uh, you're thinking of the Young Justice cartoon. Pre-Flashpoint comics Artemis is a villain from Infinity Inc and JSA. She has no connection to Roy and Cheshire in the comics, and doesn't even exist in New 52/Rebirth.