So, Can the Titans Finally be Saved Now?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I just realized something : the biggest weakness of the (adult) Titans is the expectation that their fans have and which are largely ingrained into an even larger base, simply because of who they are.

I mean, Outsiders, Doom Patrol, The Terrifics... Nobody expect the members of those teams to be out there, outsmarting and going toe to toe with the worst DC has to offer. Nobody's here expecting Black Lightning to scuffle with Darkseid, or Mr. Terrific with Brainiac, at least not in a recurring way.

While the characters of those teams are great, they aren't considered as a part of the "tier" where such threat are dealt with most often (the Superman, Wonder Woman and Justice League level, in a sense).

But the Titans ? They've got a Flash at least as experienced as Barry; they have bloody Nightwing, who was Batman, and a damn good one at that. They have Donna and Garth, who are really liked by their fans and indeed close to the level of their mentor. Even "lesser" known Titans such as Arsenal and Lilith aren't that weak - if less known indeed. And the NTT have been created to be able to go toe to toe with the Justice League, be it Cyborg (who has been a member for close to ten years now), Starfire or Raven (Beast Boy is in a very awkward place I find, but even he isn't that weak).

For all intent and purpose, fans expects - I expect - them to deal with large threats. I may be in a minority of course, but the idea of putting together Dick, Wally, Donna, Koriand'r, Victor and others, just to have them deal with low level crooks isn't exactly appealing.

Well, that's the point. They have and they should continue to do so. Trigon is an interdimensional demon god, Deathstroke is capable of taking out a whole team of Leaguers, Brother Blood runs a massive criminal cult, and even the Fearsome Five are capable of a lot of damage, with Mammoth, who is essentially a big bruiser, and Jinx, who wields chaos magic.

But the problem is that the Justice League has cornered the market for those level of danger. Sure, sometimes other characters can be brought in, like in Justice League Dark and Odyssey, but they are never the former sidekicks and rarely the New Teen Titans themselves (even if Odyssey did want to use them, and is currently toying with them in a way which I like but I perfectly understand why others fans of those two characters could be extremely disappointed and angry at the book).

So, yeah. Are we, as readers, actually the liability of the Titans ? Are we what prevent them to be great, because we want them to be GREAT ?

Not really. Again, a lot of the villains I mentioned are "League-level" and honestly, if DC funnels all of the powerful villains to the JLA, then it's just boring. I know the X-Men comparisons may be getting old, but Apocolypse and Magneto and the Dark Phoenix are world-level and, in some cases, world-ending threats. Yet, the X-Men are the ones that fight them, not the Avengers. Albeit, the Phoenix Force has made significant appearances outside of X-Men comics. But to my earlier point, actually, in the New Teen Titans/Uncanny X-Men crossover from the 80s, the Titans went up against Darkseid. So, yeah...

It's time to stop this whole idea of "graduating" to the League once a character reaches a certain threshold of power. Again, pretty sure either Starfire or Raven could beat the crap out of both Batman and Green Arrow and even stand up to some of the more powerful members. Starfire could go toe-to-toe with Wonder Woman if she wanted.

[Digifiend]

True, I know Bruce is supposed to have contingencies for any hero going rogue, but there's no way he's beating Raven without the assistance of someone like Zatanna.

[Ascended]

Thats the trap. As long as the purpose of Titans books remains homeless center for struggling characters with nothing else, success and popularity is actually detrimental for the characters in it. Unless Donna is a hot mess with nowhere else to go, Donna wonÂ’t get any development. Like we see with Dick when it comes to the Titans now. The better off a character is, the less Titans as it currently is has to offer the character. As much as IÂ’m tired of "Who Is Donna Troy?" IÂ’m tired of the Titans being nothing but a containment team for a bunch of hot messes.

Well, again, as long as he has a solo Dick is never getting character development in a team book. Just like you'll never see Batman or Flash get character development in the League. That's what the solo book is for. But I think you're under the impression that character development has to be fixing a broken character. It's not; doing yet another repeat of Who Is Donna Troy? isn't the only kind of character development Donna can have. She could be completely "fixed" and still get development as a character. I mean, back in the day she got married, divorced, had a kid, her career had up's and down's....plenty of stuff happened to her and was done with her that had nothing to do with "fixing" her. We've had Who is Donna Troy? a half dozen times at least. I'm tired of that and it's not helping her. How about we just answer that real quick (because right now it *has* to be answered) and move on? How about "Donna Gets a New Job" or something instead?

Now, you're not wrong that the book (any book) needs a strong direction and purpose. The big overall picture has to be quality, and the way the characters bounce off each other is a good sized part of that. This is true. But if the individual parts are broken and cracked? The big picture will be as well. Donna (or any of them) can't bounce off the others when we're not sure who Donna is. We can't expect to write her interactions with consistency when her character is so fractured and all over the place. Fixing that doesn't have to be some big huge epic, it can be as simple as taking a single page and saying "This is who she is, and what she's been through, and this is what informs her interactions with the others."

And really, this is all just basic storytelling, and what the old NTT did. Characters grew and had character development, it wasn't just all quips and interactions (like you see with the League because everyone has solo's); everyone had their own journey and the team as a whole evolved likewise. I'm not suggesting anything radical here man, I'm just saying let them keep doing that.

I fail to see how titans as a team and as whole benefits from that. You are still basically wasting away a valuable ip while "fixing" characters .

Fixing individual character would have minimum baring on the titans franchise because team itself is more valuable than individual characters and is the draw.

I'm not sure how much of a draw the brand is anymore honestly. It's a mid-range seller but it doesn't seem to excite anyone. That's another major problem we've talked about; how DC has tried to split the IP into different things and (along with just crap quality) it's damaged the brand. I mean yeah, it's certainly more popular than most of the members themselves, but that's not saying much; Beast Boy isn't exactly a headliner, yknow? But even still, take a look at all the other reunions they've done. Look at how they treated the characters and the brand. There's a bunch of mistakes that they keep making over and over again. And one of those mistakes is focusing on the overall team dynamic more than letting the individuals grow and change and be seen at their best.

A team can't operate when the members are all broken like the Titans are broken. Broken members only bring broken interactions.

So, yeah. Are we, as readers, actually the liability of the Titans ? Are we what prevent them to be great, because we want them to be GREAT ?

I wouldn't say we're the *only* liability, but yes I think fandom is *a* liability. The biggest issue has always been DC's treatment of the franchise and the characters therein, it's mostly all on them, but we don't help.

There's a bunch of problems to consider with this IP, but as I've said before, DC wants to keep the Titans frozen in one moment in time, despite "growth" and "change" being major factors in the NTT's success. And fans aren't much better; we like our familiar status quo's and don't want things to change very much.....but we complain about reunions because they're poorly done re-tellings of stories we've already read that treat the roster like a bunch of rookies instead of veterans, but then complain just as loudly when DC tries something different or uses different people.

[astro@work]

Reasons why the New Teen Titans worked back in the day:
-Mix of old and new characters
-Character development of both the old and new characters; virtually everybody got at least a short arc exploring their backgrounds
-Character progression over time
-Useage of past members when it fit the story (Lillith, Roy, Garth, Karen) versus current trend of inventing new characters for each iteration and then abandoning them never to be seen again (unless a sacrificial Titan is needed to kill).
-Interesting character dynamics (Cyborg and Gar, Wally and Raven, Dick & Kory, etc).
-Strong villains we hadn't seen before (vs poorly developed villains or overused villains).

Things DC variously and incorrectly concluded:
-After a previous run we never want to see the new characters again (oh hi Bunker)
-We ONLY want to see previous rosters (NTT) battling previous villains.
-To keep the TT distinct they must be subservient to the JLA (big reason the previous run alienated a lot of people...Dick and Co. cow-towing to agro-Batman was so infuriating).
-The only way to tell new stories is with a completely new roster (current TT minus Damien)

I don't think a NTT isn't worth a try with a good writer. But it needs a mix of old and new, a respect for previous history and characters, NEW villains (please God no more Trigon), and a distinct VOICE for the characters that celebrates that they aren't the JLA (while also not defining them by that).

[Godlike13]

Well, again, as long as he has a solo Dick is never getting character development in a team book. Just like you'll never see Batman or Flash get character development in the League. That's what the solo book is for. But I think you're under the impression that character development has to be fixing a broken character. It's not; doing yet another repeat of Who Is Donna Troy? isn't the only kind of character development Donna can have. She could be completely "fixed" and still get development as a character. I mean, back in the day she got married, divorced, had a kid, her career had up's and down's....plenty of stuff happened to her and was done with her that had nothing to do with "fixing" her. We've had Who is Donna Troy? a half dozen times at least. I'm tired of that and it's not helping her. How about we just answer that real quick (because right now it *has* to be answered) and move on? How about "Donna Gets a New Job" or something instead?

Now, you're not wrong that the book (any book) needs a strong direction and purpose. The big overall picture has to be quality, and the way the characters bounce off each other is a good sized part of that. This is true. But if the individual parts are broken and cracked? The big picture will be as well. Donna (or any of them) can't bounce off the others when we're not sure who Donna is. We can't expect to write her interactions with consistency when her character is so fractured and all over the place. Fixing that doesn't have to be some big huge epic, it can be as simple as taking a single page and saying "This is who she is, and what she's been through, and this is what informs her interactions with the others."

And really, this is all just basic storytelling, and what the old NTT did. Characters grew and had character development, it wasn't just all quips and interactions (like you see with the League because everyone has solo's); everyone had their own journey and the team as a whole evolved likewise. I'm not suggesting anything radical here man, I'm just saying let them keep doing that.

Batman and Flash get character development in JL. Be it with a new adorable alien starfish Robin or JL events like Metal. Batman isn't just a background character with nothing to really do cause he has solo. Team book's aren't solo's, you just keep perpetuating this idea that Titans exists to act a solo for its character that can't justify having one. In a healthy team book Donna could be "fixed" and still get development, but for homeless center masquerading as a team, where the priority is on the team's characters individual needs, the character who need less gets less. This is the same unproductive cycle Titans finds itself in. Catering to its struggling characters, and ignoring the team itself as concept while taking for granted what it actually has that works. As if a "fixed" Donna Troy is just going to propel and evolve a struggling Titans as whole forward.
They can't keep ignoring the team as whole as if its characters will take care of that for them. NTT didn't just take the Fab 5 and give each their own journey. Like i said before, before NTT did anything it created a new overall purpose and reinvented the team as we knew it. It introduced new members, new villains, and injected a level of world building the Titans hasn’t seen since. Its characters then naturally followed suit within that environment. Asking for them to basally just keep doing what they have been doing, but better. Isn't going to help the Titans as a whole. The focus with Titans needs to change.

[Ascended]

Batman and Flash get character development in JL. Be it with a new adorable alien starfish Robin or JL events like Metal. Batman isn't just a background character with nothing to really do cause he has solo.

We are very much on different pages and use different definitions for things. I don't define that as character development (internal changes to a character's PoV), that's character interaction (external agents or forces the character deals with). I don't care to debate which definition is correct, I'm just saying we're apparently using different ones. Metal does kinda sorta provide a bit of character development I suppose, but it's wrapping up the loose ends from Snyder's solo run and even then I'm not sure how much the experience changed Bruce.

But anyway, I think we have argued ourselves off track haven't we? And it's a bit ridiculous, I don't even want these guys on a team together anymore. Certainly not one called Titans.

Though I do have to admit that the idea of them starting a new team, with a new mission and a new roster does hold some appeal.

I think you might be misunderstanding me anyway (and perhaps I, you). I'm agreeing with you that the team dynamic and all of that is important. You need those things. You also need the subplots that advance everyone's story. Donna and Starfire hanging out having coffee is character interaction, and very important. Donna getting married and having a kid is character development. You need that too. And just like when this stuff was done back in the day, it doesn't turn anything into a solo or any of that. But this kind of character work is what makes the character interactions better (and yes, interactions can help define a character and their development too). Donna and Starfire having coffee is more interesting when they have character developing subplots that they can discuss. And because these characters are currently so broken and inconsistent, a creator has to know where they're going and introduce the consistency they're currently lacking. That is all I've been saying.

[Shockingjustice]

I just realized something : the biggest weakness of the (adult) Titans is the expectation that their fans have and which are largely ingrained into an even larger base, simply because of who they are.

I mean, Outsiders, Doom Patrol, The Terrifics... Nobody expect the members of those teams to be out there, outsmarting and going toe to toe with the worst DC has to offer. Nobody's here expecting Black Lightning to scuffle with Darkseid, or Mr. Terrific with Brainiac, at least not in a recurring way.

While the characters of those teams are great, they aren't considered as a part of the "tier" where such threat are dealt with most often (the Superman, Wonder Woman and Justice League level, in a sense).

But the Titans ? They've got a Flash at least as experienced as Barry; they have bloody Nightwing, who was Batman, and a damn good one at that. They have Donna and Garth, who are really liked by their fans and indeed close to the level of their mentor. Even "lesser" known Titans such as Arsenal and Lilith aren't that weak - if less known indeed. And the NTT have been created to be able to go toe to toe with the Justice League, be it Cyborg (who has been a member for close to ten years now), Starfire or Raven (Beast Boy is in a very awkward place I find, but even he isn't that weak).

For all intent and purpose, fans expects - I expect - them to deal with large threats. I may be in a minority of course, but the idea of putting together Dick, Wally, Donna, Koriand'r, Victor and others, just to have them deal with low level crooks isn't exactly appealing.

But the problem is that the Justice League has cornered the market for those level of danger. Sure, sometimes other characters can be brought in, like in Justice League Dark and Odyssey, but they are never the former sidekicks and rarely the New Teen Titans themselves (even if Odyssey did want to use them, and is currently toying with them in a way which I like but I perfectly understand why others fans of those two characters could be extremely disappointed and angry at the book).

So, yeah. Are we, as readers, actually the liability of the Titans ? Are we what prevent them to be great, because we want them to be GREAT ?

Maybe it's because I grew up with the Teen Titans show (the anime one), but I always felt like Beast Boy was a great character. Not only was he my Favorite but he also had same great episode (everyone did) that showed that he was more than a comedic relief character.

[Alan2099]

Part of the problem is the Teen Titans that people think of when you hear the name doesn't exist anymore. If you try to put the team back together they aren't the Teen Titans. Without the Teen part, you loose a big part of the appeal.

They aren't the Justice League, but they aren't the rookies that are trying to one day BE the Justice League either.

The idea of a group that does explore being somewhere in the middle could be an interesting one, but it would take a really good writer to pull it off.

One thing I do think the Titans (Teen or otherwise) has that the JLA doesn't is that they can handle subplots and a slow burn better. The JLA handle world ending threats that are occurring right now! The Titans can uncover plots that lead to the world ending stuff. It's a bit less actiony but a lot more character driven.

[9th.]

Anybody know if Lian still dead? They need to revive her when they bring Roy back.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, she was already dead before Flashpoint and thus logically would remain so. However, resurrecting her would've provided an option for a 5G Speedy (there hasn't actually been a Speedy since Flashpoint because Mia vanished and her effective replacement Emiko is called Red Arrow instead).

[Aahz]

Yeah, she was already dead before Flashpoint and thus logically would remain so.

The Big Question would be if she even exist in this continuity. Btw. Arsenal lost his Arm in the same event where Lian was killed, but he never had a Cyberarm post flashpoint.

However, resurrecting her would've provided an option for a 5G Speedy (there hasn't actually been a Speedy since Flashpoint because Mia vanished and her effective replacement Emiko is called Red Arrow instead).

Mia actually apeared in the New 52, and Lian would be to young to be Speedy, she was only 5 when she died.

[Digifiend]

Not in 5G she wouldn't. Roy would've likely been aged up, and Lian with him.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yeah, she was already dead before Flashpoint and thus logically would remain so. However, resurrecting her would've provided an option for a 5G Speedy (there hasn't actually been a Speedy since Flashpoint because Mia vanished and her effective replacement Emiko is called Red Arrow instead).

I would rather they actually do a story that eventually results in Lian's resurrection. I want to cry Pixar tears at a scene of Roy being reunited with his daughter.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

So here's what I would do. I would find a way to restore Dick to his former self and then I'd immediately cancel his solo title and the Teen Titans title. I'd then put an embargo on any of the Titans characters appearing in any books, save for Wally West as he goes through whatever the whole cosmic-god Wally direction they seem to be cooking up. Once that wraps us, he's welcome to come to the Titans. Anyway, so that means no Deathstroke appearing in Batman, no Donna appearing in the Wonder Woman book, no Starfire or Cyborg in JL Odyssey, etc. Meanwhile, I'd immediately hold counsel with writers and artists to pitch a new direction for the Titans franchise. I have ideas myself, but I'd confer with others before making final plans. However, I would at least designate the characters I wanted for the team, a few of the key directions and changes I wanted to put in place, and start tapping artists to work on the book or books that I planned to launch.

What needs to be done with the Titans is the same thing Hickman did with X-Men and even what Bendis did with Superman. There needs to be a huge status quo shift, but one that maintains the core mythos of the characters. Bendis, so far, has had Jor-El come to take Jon across the galaxy (also dealing with the consequences from that), Clark move the Fortress of Solitude to the Bermuda Triangle, Lois hole up in a hotel room in Chicago writing a book, and even had Clark reveal his secret identity. So, yeah, a lot of status quo shifts, but ones that kind of fit with the nature of the Superman mythology. Same thing with Hickman on X-Men: the formation of a mutant society on Krakoa, the "gateways" connecting mutants across the world, the formation of a council including not just X-Men but also some notable villains like Magneto and Apocolypse, even the apparent polyamorous relationship between Jean, Scott, and Logan. A lot of changes, but ones that seem rational extensions of previous story threads.

As for my plans, I'd launch:

New Titans: written by either Greg Rucka or Matt Fraction (or both), art by Andrea Sorrentino or Jerome Opeña.

• Continuity-wise, we're just gonna pretend Flashpoint never happened
• The core team book starring Nightwing, Donna, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, and Cyborg
• Dick and Donna choose to reunite the team because they realize that the Titans was the only place they were allowed to realize their full potential
• They also want to launch an initiative that will require the help of their teammates
• The new Titans Tower is a giant T-shaped blimp/aircraft, akin to the Hellicarrier, that can travel anywhere in the world and with the capacity to house hundreds
• The new Titans Tower was built through a collaboration of Starfire, Tamaranean engineers, and Cyborg, using the plans Silas used to construct the original Titans Tower
• The first arc sees the resurrection of Pantha who then joins the core team as its seventh member
• The initiative is revealed to be the Titans reinvented as not just a superhero team, but as a humanitarian organization (helping the downtrodden reach their full potential).
• They dedicate themselves to not just fighting villains but also helping the victims and even reformed villains.
• They also deal with the resettlement of refugees from large-scale supervillain attacks as well as from other disasters, both human and natural; helping people get jobs; physical therapy and trauma counseling; etc.
• They set up "Titans consulates" in every major region and major cities across the globe, all with teleportation portals to the Tower
• Each consulate is headed up by a member of the extended Titans (e.g. Red Star, Bumblebee, Mal Duncan, etc.)
• They are truly the next generation of superheroes, helping people both during and after crises.

I don't know. Just a spitball of an idea. Might also lead to some spin-off books.

[Aahz]

Anyway, so that means no Deathstroke appearing in Batman

Deathstroke has become a popular character on his own (and more succesfull then any titan appart from Dick and Wally), returning him to be just a Titans villain would not be a smart move.
I would in general not have the writers use any old Titan villains, that they franchise constantly rehash the old villains instead of creating new ones is one of the biggest problem of the Titans.