So, Can the Titans Finally be Saved Now?

[manwhohaseverything]

I'd be satisfied with that. Seriously, just put the book on the shelves until you find the right pitch.

I'm with Korath in that while I value the relationships and want those to continue, I don't find "friendship" to be a valid excuse for the team. Each of these guys are among the most experienced heroes around, in their primes, and more than capable of operating on a top-end level by themselves (maybe not Garfield). If they're gonna be a team just so they can fight HIVE and Slade again, hard pass. That should be a solo thing for them now. I'll happily watch Nightwing take down a HIVE base. But he can do that himself, he doesn't need help, and neither do Donna, Wally, Vic, or the others (except maybe Garfield).

The Titans as a team have become less than the sum of its parts. Until DC finds a way to stop that (and it's not hard) I'd rather the book stay off the shelves. I'd rather have nothing than have a bad product I won't enjoy anyway.

If 5G gives us books from across the history like some rumors claim, I'd be down with a Titans book set in the past. But "today's" Titans have grown beyond that time and if DC can't acknowledge that and make the necessary adjustments then I'm out.

As for AT&T.....the larger media stuff has never helped the book's sales before. That stuff rarely trickles down to floppies, and AT&T must know that. I could see them wanting to push more of the YA OGN stuff, or pursuing a movie or new shows, but not really caring about the direct market. But if they attribute the rise in trade sales to the larger media stuff, then they might want to more effort put into the comics for that, maybe, though the best Titans material (from years ago) can be re-released in new trades at a cheaper cost.

If the grown titans can't equal or surpass the league in importance in events, facing foes and be impactful as a whole. Then there is no point to the characters existing. Their growing is done. They need to play as a big guys now. I don't think dc views them as such a team.So they restrict them. As said, Rebirth manhattan plotline was never taken forward. It was introduced in titans and then discarded. The best issue in titans was clark and wally meeting. Neither wally nor the titan had anything in doomsday clock. As long as their skewed view is like that. Titans will be floundering as bgrade copies of justice league who is just bteam. That is neither the charcters faults nor the teams.As a team titans have better dynamics. They can give progression and can even accommodate new dynamics with new characters.

[Godlike13]

The mind frame of having to be equal to the JL or bust needs to go. That whole way of thinking is part of of the Titans problem and is a box DC needs to take them out of. That is the result of decades of lazy creators telling generic stories with a JL like formula.
They need to change that mind frame with the Titans first and foremost. It shouldn’t matter if the Titans are as important as the JL. They need to overhaul how they go about the Titans. From how they operate, to the kind of stories they tell with them.

Unfortunate they will only afford the Titans mediocre creators who are conditioned to tell factory like generic stories, in factory like generic ways. Nothing is going to change for the Titans, or for any of that generation of characters, as long as they continue to just see them as creator fodder for the likes of Lobdell, Abnett, or Jurgans.

[manwhohaseverything]

The mind frame of having to be equal to the JL or bust needs to go. That whole way of thinking is part of of the Titans problem and is a box DC needs to take them out of. That is the result of decades of lazy creators telling generic stories with a JL like formula.

They need to change that mind frame with the Titans first and foremost. It shouldn’t matter if the Titans are as important as the JL. They need to overhaul how they go about the Titans. From how they operate, to the kind of stories they tell with them.

Unfortunate they will only afford the Titans mediocre creators who are conditioned to tell factory like generic stories, in factory like generic ways. Nothing is going to change for the Titans, or for any of that generation of characters, as long as they just see them as creator fodder for the likes of Lobdell, Abnett, or Jurgans.

If they don't impact the universe and have no part to play in events. Then the team is irrelevant. Sure, if people want titans to be given specific specialised field as a team. Go for it, but treating them as a team that can be bullied by batman into submission and disbanded is nonsense and unacceptable. I understand characters cannot be propelled without creative ideas and push. But, Push is important just as creative ideas. Otherwise, they wouldn't shoving harley everywhere and having batman beating superman every time.

Look at the metal thing that's happening. What are the titans role in that? Nothing or worse being jobbers or pawns for batman who laughs. That's is also not good. If titans can't have huge events with them as the centre how have they grown? Titans is about growth. Right? If they are stuck doing the same thing 30 years ago, at the same level.That's not a good thing. Even the relationships need to grow. They need to act like grown men/woman/others. Not teens in grown people's bodies dealing with teen stuff. They aren't teen titans anymore . Writer no matter how good cannot operate with restrictions put and hand being tied.

[Godlike13]

If the only way they matter is by doing the same kind of things, and being measured in the same kind of ways as the JL. With stuff like JL events. Then the Titans are only going to continue to to naturally fall in the be like the JL box. Yes the Titans needs to be pushed, but how they go about pushing them doesn't need to be the same as how they push the JL. They need to change how they go about the Titans. Huge JL like events with them at the center is not how they grow. That's just doing what the JL does. The Titans would be better served fining growth in lateral ways, rather then continuing to emulate the JL and how they are approached.

[manwhohaseverything]

If the only way they matter is by doing the same kind of things, and being measured in the same kind of ways as the JL. With stuff like JL events. Then the Titans are only going to continue to to naturally fall in the be like the JL box. Yes the Titans needs to be pushed, but how they go about pushing them doesn't need to be the same as how they push the JL. They needs to change how they go about the Titans. Huge JL like events with them as the center not how they grow. That's just doing with the JL does.

Who says they need to do the same thing? I didn't. All i am saying they need to stepup what they can do. Justice league is an impersonal team. Titans isn't . But, they aren't teen titans anymore. Them being less competent than the league isn't acceptable. All i am saying is, batman isn't the boss of titans. Period. In universe, if they are treated like underlings then its stupid. I am talking them as a team. Not roy harper beats up green arrow with one arm. Individually they can be stronger or weaker than mentors. But, should always be comparable.

Huge event doesn't mean doing something that justice league does. It means something important for the readers to care about whether it's cosmic or street level spy stuff . Noone cares if titans beats up abracadabra or slade or mammoth. They need to have a piece of the pie. Otherwise, they would be left in the dust. Rebirth did nothing for the titans. Why? Because they were left out from the overall narrative. Even with the stupid drama and teen nonsense being shoved in to characters who grown adults. It could have been salvaged, had they actually given it a direction that connected to the overall grand narrative.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I doubt it, because, like it or not, in a universe where some characters ages and others don't, Titans (especially the Fab 5) will always be the Beta Justice League, the Super-team for the Also-ran, those who didn't make the cut to the big one.

I also think that if the team exist just because they are friends... well, it makes for very poor stories.

But never say never. Who knows what could happen ?

This is just such a fundamental misunderstanding of the Titans and the thing that made them the Titans. Newsflash: no, they are not the beta Justice League. They are about as related to the JLA as the Green Lantern Corps is and maybe even less given that they aren't traditionally members of the League themselves. In fact, they once were selling better than the Justice League. The core of the team is that they are independent and have an identity outside of their mentors and they were incredibly popular because of that. The difference between then and now is that DC actually had leadership once upon a time that recognized that. Ever since about 2004, they haven't. And that leadership has actually not only contributed to the decline of the Titans but also the decline of DC Comics.

Although, for an apparently "beta" franchise, they've been incredibly successful in terms of other media, from several popular animated series and films to a well-received ******action series. Also, for a "beta" franchise, they've somehow been able to spawn a large amount of fan-favorite characters in the DC Universe, from Deathstroke to Starfire. So, I don't know why people seem to think they're incapable of maintaining an audience when that's exactly what they've proven themselves capable of.

Also, FYI, a lot of Titans have actually had short stints as Justice League members and some of them actually were on the League for years. So the idea that they "aren't good enough" is just bupkiss. They choose to not be Leaguers, not the other way around.

[Lee]

At it's peak, Titans was (like X-Men) a soap opera about young people with super-powers, starred a handful of the original lineup along with fresh new characters, introduced fresh new villains, and had a top-tier creative team who were there for a long run.

[Ascended]

And now it's a soap opera about young people with super powers, starring characters who have been around for 40 years or more, fighting the same villains they've been fighting for decades, with low end creative teams.

DC never learned what made them popular in the first place, and continue to repeat the same mistakes thinking that somehow, the same formula that's failed over the last twenty years will somehow, magically, start working.

[Lee]

And now it's a soap opera about young people with super powers, starring characters who have been around for 40 years or more, fighting the same villains they've been fighting for decades, with low end creative teams.

The current Teen Titans lineup has some original characters in it at least.

Though the last time the comic was a hit (Geoff Johns and Mike McKone) they took an "all-star" approach to the line-up. It was also the last time they had a "hot" creative team on the title.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

And now it's a soap opera about young people with super powers, starring characters who have been around for 40 years or more, fighting the same villains they've been fighting for decades, with low end creative teams.

DC never learned what made them popular in the first place, and continue to repeat the same mistakes thinking that somehow, the same formula that's failed over the last twenty years will somehow, magically, start working.

Well then how do you explain how Marvel's been able to save the X-Men? A lot of the same concepts and characters that have made the X-Men beloved (their bread and butter, if you will) are still there in Hickman's run. However, the only thing really that's different is that Hickman is recombining those elements and characters in a way that's new and exciting. Apocolypse and Magneto are there, but are partners with Xavier in creating a new society (though Magneto's been an antihero for a long time now). Logan and Scott are no longer competing for Jean's affections but they are all seemingly in a polyamorous relationship. It's the perfect blend of the familiar and the new. It's a continuation of the classic story threads, not a repudiation of them.

That is...essentially what the Titans need. They need a way to bring the gang back together in a way that is exciting and new, but respects all the mythology that came before.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

What is the obsession with Hickman? Is he the ONLY person in the comic person who knows the secret to reviving the Titans and no one else? I just don't get it.

He’s been known to be a big out-of-the-box kind of writer, who’s flipped 3 franchises on their heads by now, with good-to-great effect.

Surely he’s not the only one who could do something interesting* with Titans, but he’s kind of a proven commodity.

*Thats assuming he could come up with any ideas. Does he even like the franchise/characters? Kind of hard to think of ideas for something one has no interest in. That’s why fan-wishing a writer onto a project is always weird. I could be GREAT at writing stories about...ants, but elephants are my weakness.

[Tzigone]

Who says they need to do the same thing? I didn't. All i am saying they need to stepup what they can do. Justice league is an impersonal team. Titans isn't . But, they aren't teen titans anymore. Them being less competent than the league isn't acceptable. All i am saying is, batman isn't the boss of titans. Period. In universe, if they are treated like underlings then its stupid. I am talking them as a team. Not roy harper beats up green arrow with one arm. Individually they can be stronger or weaker than mentors. But, should always be comparable.

Agreed. And that was something that was addressed early in the NTT era. They cannot be a starter league or something that "kids" naturally grow out of, though individuals can, of course, move on to other things. Despite the name, they were very adult for the most part in the heyday. Not kids, and not subordinate to their mentors (the ones that had them).

Can they be saved - I don't know. There are so many problems, some long predating Didio. First, the hamster wheel with Vic, Raven, and to a degree Kori. Less so, Gar. They had great early stories, but Perez leaving or writer's block or both led to them each basically having one "theme" and recycling it. Vic is "man or machine" or whether he's still human. Raven is Trigon and demonic influence (she needed to be over and done with that long ago) and for Kori it's losing her home over and over. Raven and Gar have also been held in teenhood way too long. Growth and progress can't be eschewed.

Justice league is an impersonal team. Titans isn't .

I agree with this. One of those things about early NTT is that the heroes, for the most part, weren't solo acts. Oh, one might pop up alone in 'Tec or whatever. But they are team first, with members who sometimes solo. Versus the JL which is made of solo heroes that sometimes team up. Probably not uncoincidentally like the X-Men. They mostly lived in the same city and so forth. That didn't stop them from having their own lives - Donna got married and so forth - but they were, and should be, much more a team than than the JL, and I'd prefer the Titans remain that. Which does, yes, mean that any heroes that have solo titles (Dick, Wally, etc.) shouldn't remain members to me. I'd also prefer that instead of giant shakeups where half or more of the cast is replaced, members join/leave more gradually.

[SiegePerilous02]

What is the obsession with Hickman? Is he the ONLY person in the comic person who knows the secret to reviving the Titans and no one else? I just don't get it.

He’s been known to be a big out-of-the-box kind of writer, who’s flipped 3 franchises on their heads by now, with good-to-great effect.

Surely he’s not the only one who could do something interesting* with Titans, but he’s kind of a proven commodity.

*Thats assuming he could come up with any ideas. Does he even like the franchise/characters? Kind of hard to think of ideas for something one has no interest in. That’s why fan-wishing a writer onto a project is always weird. I could be GREAT at writing stories about...ants, but elephants are my weakness.

I think he's the only big name writer who has even expressed an interest, which is why he gets mentioned a lot. Especially as he's saving the X-men now

https://www.cbr.com/jonathan-hickman...e-teen-titans/

For the love of everything i don't believe in, please keep hickman away from titans.He's already turned the x-men into an unrecognizable mess, let's just keep it at that.

Lol the Titans can't afford to turn away any writer that has an interest and would bring the hype.
They are in a beyond pitiful state right now, comics wise. Beggars can't be choosers.

[Ascended]

Well then how do you explain how Marvel's been able to save the X-Men?

That is...essentially what the Titans need. They need a way to bring the gang back together in a way that is exciting and new, but respects all the mythology that came before.

You answer your own question. I'm not saying the Titans are beyond saving, I'm saying the Titans as DC has handled them over the last two-three decades is beyond saving.

If someone came along and took all the history and the foundation of the Titans and then did something new, like Hickman is doing with the mutants? Great, I'm on board. If all DC can muster up is yet another uninspired, trite, nostalgia drenched walk down memory lane where everyone acts like they're still "figuring it all out" then I have no interest. Those stories were told well thirty years ago and have been told poorly ever since.

And none of that has anything to do with what I said above about the team being a bunch of old characters with crap creators doing the same crap they did thirty years ago. There's been no evolution or new direction. The last time anyone even put a halfass effort into that sorta thing was Johns' "NTT mentor YJ" thing, and that was.....2005?

[Lee Stone]

The current Teen Titans lineup has some original characters in it at least.

Though the last time the comic was a hit (Geoff Johns and Mike McKone) they took an "all-star" approach to the line-up. It was also the last time they had a "hot" creative team on the title.

And it sold??
Who woulda thunk it?
o.O