So, Can the Titans Finally be Saved Now?

[Lee Stone]

You answer your own question. I'm not saying the Titans are beyond saving, I'm saying the Titans as DC has handled them over the last two-three decades is beyond saving.

If someone came along and took all the history and the foundation of the Titans and then did something new, like Hickman is doing with the mutants? Great, I'm on board. If all DC can muster up is yet another uninspired, trite, nostalgia drenched walk down memory lane where everyone acts like they're still "figuring it all out" then I have no interest. Those stories were told well thirty years ago and have been told poorly ever since.

And none of that has anything to do with what I said above about the team being a bunch of old characters with crap creators doing the same crap they did thirty years ago. There's been no evolution or new direction. The last time anyone even put a halfass effort into that sorta thing was Johns' "NTT mentor YJ" thing, and that was.....2005?

The important thing I think is to have a writer finally just say '**** it' and restore the Titans' history despite of what DC wants, just so they can finally move on.
The reason things get retreaded so often is because there's big chunks of their history that's missing but are required for certain characters to be who they are.

[Sutekh]

The mind frame of having to be equal to the JL or bust needs to go.

Agreed. The DCU should be big enough for more than one team to exist. The Fantastic Four and X-Men aren't 'pointless' because they aren't the Outsiders, and the Teen Titans, Outsiders, etc. should be able to remain relevant without being exactly the same as the Justice League.

The big difference I see is that the Teen Titans are generally friends and 'family' (found family, but still), while the League tends to be assembled from top tier characters who aren't always the best of friends, and, when the action stops, have lives (and solos) of their own to return to, they don't generally hang around the Justice League headquarters with each other by choice, because they have their own lives, careers, supporting cast of friends, etc. built up over the years.

[SiegePerilous02]

The important thing I think is to have a writer finally just say '**** it' and restore the Titans' history despite of what DC wants, just so they can finally move on.
The reason things get retreaded so often is because there's big chunks of their history that's missing but are required for certain characters to be who they are.

Aside from Donna (who was always a hot mess), some of the previous attempts to reinvigorate the Titans had all their previous history intact. And they were still pretty mediocre.

Having their history back would help, but one of the main problems is the NTT run taking place at a specific point in the characters' lives. They were the only generation of sidekicks at that point and them striking out on their own and becoming adults with other unique heroes was all brand new. The X-Men have a mission statement and theme that applies to them no matter their ages, the Titans really don't except being friends hanging out.

It doesn't help that Johns added the YJ cast to Teen Titans. I think Dick's generation should be the only group to have the Titans name. If we're going to shake the sidekick/JL link stigma, no other Robins and their gens should be associated with the team. Only the fab 5 should be associated with JL mentors, and as much differences as possible should be played up while surrounding them with other unique heroes like Cyborg, Raven, Starfire, etc.

[Ascended]

The important thing I think is to have a writer finally just say '**** it' and restore the Titans' history despite of what DC wants, just so they can finally move on.
The reason things get retreaded so often is because there's big chunks of their history that's missing but are required for certain characters to be who they are.

I agree the history should be intact. But that's no guarantee another reunion will be any better than the last dozen they've tried, with or without the continuity intact. We need to know where we've been to know where we're going, but where we're going has to be more than a nostalgic walk down memory lane too.

Personally, I think a good place to start is asking yourself where the individuals are in life. Even for the characters, the NTT ended years ago now. So forget that DC has limited these characters and stunted their development, and ask yourself where they'd reasonably be five years (or however long it's been) after the NTT era ended. But don't forget the development and directions they *have* had either. From there you can maybe start dreaming up ways to make another go at the Titans fresh and fun. But I think you need to work on the individual characters before you can work on the group.

But me...I question whether the NTT/Fab5 need to be together at all anymore. I'd rather they move on in a "professional" capacity while remaining friends who still hang out on weekends.

[chief12d]

I agree the history should be intact. But that's no guarantee another reunion will be any better than the last dozen they've tried, with or without the continuity intact. We need to know where we've been to know where we're going, but where we're going has to be more than a nostalgic walk down memory lane too.

Personally, I think a good place to start is asking yourself where the individuals are in life. Even for the characters, the NTT ended years ago now. So forget that DC has limited these characters and stunted their development, and ask yourself where they'd reasonably be five years (or however long it's been) after the NTT era ended. But don't forget the development and directions they *have* had either. From there you can maybe start dreaming up ways to make another go at the Titans fresh and fun. But I think you need to work on the individual characters before you can work on the group.

But me...I question whether the NTT/Fab5 need to be together at all anymore. I'd rather they move on in a "professional" capacity while remaining friends who still hang out on weekends.

At this point the IP might be too valuable to just break up the core Titans due to outside media exposure. But I agree the best option would be to use the various members to beef up other properties. Garth and Raven to JLD, Starfire w/ JLO, Roy and Bumblebee with the Outsiders, Gar as Cyborg’s supporting cast, Wally with a solo, etc. I think the entire DCU would benefit from having more Titans fill the upper ranks on their other titles.

[sifighter]

Honestly I’ve been rereading Geoff Johns Teen Titans run but while I don’t think that line-up needs to return I do think I liked the idea that the adult titans ran titan tower as a hangout for new sidekicks as a place they could get away from the adult heroes and make friends.

Personally I think if I wanted to see a new title, I’d kind of like this line-up. I admit it’s a bit long but we’ve seen big line-ups before.

Dick Grayson/Nightwing
Starfire
Cyborg
Raven
Beast Boy
Donna Troy
Jaime Reyes/Blue Beetle
Damian Wayne
Wallace West/Kid Flash
Crush
Emiko/Red Arrow
Jon Kent

[SiegePerilous02]

But me...I question whether the NTT/Fab5 need to be together at all anymore. I'd rather they move on in a "professional" capacity while remaining friends who still hang out on weekends.

If we're doing a Titans revival though, it's kind of not worth doing without that group. For all intents and purposes, they ARE the Titans.

This isn't the X-Men, where you have way more numerous iconic and popular characters to work with in various combinations even if we were just to limit it to the ones from the Lee/Kirby/Claremont eras before getting into the 90s and beyond eras or spin offs like New Mutants and Excalibur. There are B and C list Titans that could be revamped and built up (Bumblebee probably being the best of these), but not many who are gonna set the sales charts on fire with their mere presence.

You could also create new characters (which I think are badly needed: entirely new heroes in their age group with no legacy ties), but we know how new heroes have a tough time catching on

[Midnight_v]

Honestly I’ve been rereading Geoff Johns Teen Titans run but while I don’t think that line-up needs to return I do think I liked the idea that the adult titans ran titan tower as a hangout for new sidekicks as a place they could get away from the adult heroes and make friends.

Personally I think if I wanted to see a new title, I’d kind of like this line-up. I admit it’s a bit long but we’ve seen big line-ups before.
...... ......

Yeah I had this thing going on in mind reading this thread like...

"Who are the Teen titans?"

And its kind of a two-fold question.

Firstly...
Is it just the team of whoever "Robin" puts together?
Is it a specific team writen in the 80's by Perez that had a great run "Rivaling the X-men" is what I hear touted all the time.
Is it "the justice league, jr."
The cartoon show brought a lot of people, who were fans of it... but...
Who the hell ARE these guys, now?

I mean when this talk comes up its really confusing to me because I'm never sure are we talking about:

Nightwing, Donna Troy, Starfire

Or ... Timdrake, Cassie Sandmark, and Con-el?
:/
Beast boy? Ms. Martian? Young Justice?

When I look at it... I mean really look at it... DC seems just as confused as me about the identity of this team. Though, unlike most people I don't think it was ONLY Dan Didio.
I think, theres a lot of creators and fans that look at this and don't know what it is except a dumping ground for teen heroes and a Jr.Justice League.

*frustrating*

[sifighter]

Yeah I had this thing going on in mind reading this thread like...

"Who are the Teen titans?"

And its kind of a two-fold question.

Firstly...
Is it just the team of whoever "Robin" puts together?
Is it a specific team writen in the 80's by Perez that had a great run "Rivaling the X-men" is what I hear touted all the time.
Is it "the justice league, jr."
The cartoon show brought a lot of people, who were fans of it... but...
Who the hell ARE these guys, now?

I mean when this talk comes up its really confusing to me because I'm never sure are we talking about:

Nightwing, Donna Troy, Starfire

Or ... Timdrake, Cassie Sandmark, and Con-el?
:/
Beast boy? Ms. Martian? Young Justice?

When I look at it... I mean really look at it... DC seems just as confused as me about the identity of this team. Though, unlike most people I don't think it was ONLY Dan Didio.
I think, theres a lot of creators and fans that look at this and don't know what it is except a dumping ground for teen heroes and a Jr.Justice League.

*frustrating*

I mean there have been a lot of teen titans, heck the Atom after Zero Hour formed his own titans for a while and at times there has been indications that pre-flashpoint that the Titans were a very large world spanning group and even the original cartoon series really dealt into it.

Not to mention that there have been a few well known iterations over the decades, the original five, Marv Wolfman’s New Teen Titans, Geoff John’s Teen Titans, the various adult titans runs, and what we have had from new 52 to present and some of them very different from each other when looking at the lineups. I think it could be said that yes there are characters who scream teen titans and that certain characters on the book can sell the name but maybe it’s kind of like the Justice League in a way, the line-up and base can change but when someone is writing it just the right way you can just feel that it is the teen titans. Maybe that doesn’t make sense, but I started with the Geoff Johns run and have gone on and backwards from there. Maybe it’s not the characters that make up the team but the right writer.

Who knows, and also sorry if my comment made you frustrated.

[king81992]

Yeah I had this thing going on in mind reading this thread like...

"Who are the Teen titans?"

And its kind of a two-fold question.

Firstly...
Is it just the team of whoever "Robin" puts together?
Is it a specific team writen in the 80's by Perez that had a great run "Rivaling the X-men" is what I hear touted all the time.
Is it "the justice league, jr."
The cartoon show brought a lot of people, who were fans of it... but...
Who the hell ARE these guys, now?

I mean when this talk comes up its really confusing to me because I'm never sure are we talking about:

Nightwing, Donna Troy, Starfire

Or ... Timdrake, Cassie Sandmark, and Con-el?
:/
Beast boy? Ms. Martian? Young Justice?

When I look at it... I mean really look at it... DC seems just as confused as me about the identity of this team. Though, unlike most people I don't think it was ONLY Dan Didio.
I think, theres a lot of creators and fans that look at this and don't know what it is except a dumping ground for teen heroes and a Jr.Justice League.

*frustrating*

The question, 'who are the Teen Titans?' needs a new answer. Basing who they are on what happened years ago stagnated their characters and trapped them in a cycle of rehashed storylines as writers tried to recapture the old magic of the NTT.

I also don't think a team needs a mission statement of a reason why they're together. Writer's should just pick a roster line up and tell stories. If the stories are good, the readers themselves will see why the team should be together and their mission statement.

[Lee Stone]

If we're doing a Titans revival though, it's kind of not worth doing without that group. For all intents and purposes, they ARE the Titans.

This isn't the X-Men, where you have way more numerous iconic and popular characters to work with in various combinations even if we were just to limit it to the ones from the Lee/Kirby/Claremont eras before getting into the 90s and beyond eras or spin offs like New Mutants and Excalibur. There are B and C list Titans that could be revamped and built up (Bumblebee probably being the best of these), but not many who are gonna set the sales charts on fire with their mere presence.

You could also create new characters (which I think are badly needed: entirely new heroes in their age group with no legacy ties), but we know how new heroes have a tough time catching on

True.
What brings a character up in stature in teams is being constantly associated with the more well-known members.
The team needs to be recognized as THE team.
Whether it's having Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman to be the Justice League or having Captain America, Iron Man and Thor to be the Avengers.

Titans doesn't have a lot to choose from. Mainly because Wolfman treated the team more like a seven member Fantastic Four. For the longest time, the only real membership change was Wally leaving and being replaced by Jericho.
Terra and Kole were created for specific purposes and both ended with them dying.

So, the Titans really only have the Wolfman Titans and the Fab5 as iconic members strong enough to headline a Titans book.
The team would need to be at least 50% made up of those members, with 75% being ideal.
You'd want at least one new character to give the writer someone to play with so they won't need to square peg one of the other characters into a story idea while also giving a new readers a ground floor character to relate to.

The new character also becomes the 'face' of that incarnation of the team, as their involvement will be part of what separates it from all the other incarnations.
So if readers don't like the new character and the writer can't ditch them easily, the book could suffer.
But if you put an artist like Jim Lee on it for about a year or two... that annoying new character suddenly becomes tolerable.

[Midnight_v]

I mean there have been a lot of teen titans

No, no its not you that frustrated me but thanks. I think you kinda actually pointed a finger as to why this thread and Titans realated topic was so "head scratching" to me.

The question, 'who are the Teen Titans?' needs a new answer. Basing who they are on what happened years ago stagnated their characters and trapped them in a cycle of rehashed storylines as writers tried to recapture the old magic of the NTT.

I also don't think a team needs a mission statement of a reason why they're together. Writer's should just pick a roster line up and tell stories. If the stories are good, the readers themselves will see why the team should be together and their mission statement.

I don't know if it needs a new answer or an old answer (as I'm not partial to any of these teams at all really... I just generically wonder "Whats with this team") but I think it
desperately needs AN answer of SOME kind.

The reason I think thats important isn't to try to *wring* some mission statement out of Dc so I can play Gotcha and try to hold their feet to the fire, but more along the lines of what Ascended was saying.

They're importance as a team needs a focus. I recall really liking titans tommrow, because it showed what happens when these guys grow up. Thing is that was Tim Drakes team, and get this... Dick,Donna, the fab 5 already grew up and what happened when they did? Feels like "Nothing" really.

I mean some people want them small and selfcontained, outside the larger universe, I guess? *throws up hands* being a creative and fixer very few properties make me go... "what the hell is going on here" like the titans do. Maybe thats why Didio hated them so much.
Even with the OP he never really spells out who he means and what "SAVING" them would mean.

Stuff...

Well... thats SOMETHING to work with at least, but didn't they do that in the cartoon with Blue Beetle and the reach and then barely reflect it in the books?
That being said I really agree with most of what your suggesting.

[Tzigone]

cycle of rehashed storylines as writers tried to recapture the old magic of the NTT.

It was great, IMO, but they just seem to keep doing the same thing over and over. I kinda get why - that the big team for them. I mean, it got the cartoons and the show and all. I don't think they need to be tied to that lineup at all. In particular, as I've said, I want Wally and Dick and solo heroes and not on the team any longer (not that anyone expects Wally there) - I think, though, that Roy could work well and is character that benefits from working with emotionally close people. But he's currently dead. The other original NTT I think could stay or go solo. But even if we keep only some of them, don't bring in new teenagers - they are not Teen Titans anymore, just Titans. I'm prone to Vic as a leader, though I don't object to Donna. I'd keep at least two of the four (Vic, Donna, Raven or Gar). With Roy in play, I would probably keep Donna. I know they've been used, but I haven't read anything with Mal or Bumblebee really since she showed up at STAR circa 1990, I think. Liked them in YJ cartoon, though very different there than originally depicted (but hey, that was a looong time ago). They are a unit to me, though. I can think of a few other characters that I think could work, but may be too associated with other teams. Bette Kane isn't, but I'd want to downplay the Bat-association, and I'm also not sure what her current characterization is (was not fond of the 90s one, but I know enough to know she's not that now).

As far as getting the Fab Five back on track - that's an entirely different proposition.

So, are we talking getting Fab Five back on track, or the original NTT back on track, or just a Titans comic of some sort? I was sort of using a blend of the last two. But especially the last, since you said the Franchise. And I was looking to Titans, not Teen Titans.

[Ascended]

If we're doing a Titans revival though, it's kind of not worth doing without that group.

Oh yeah, *if* you're doing a reunion, you gotta use the Fab5/NTT. Not a reunion otherwise.

I'm saying that *if* you do a reunion, you can't treat them like it's still 1984. They've grown. Half the reason that book was so popular I think, is because characters got to grow. It's an oxymoron to think that locking them in one status quo will work (and why DC struggles with them so much, they're at their best when they evolve but the rest of the DCU is largely trapped in time). What made them flourish is they got to grow up. So now it needs to be about what happens next. NTT was college. Now they're the young hotshot professionals, the "billionaires under 30." What's that like? I want to read about that, not their 'endless repeat adventures of college in the 80's.'

But I personally don't think we need a reunion at all. I think the Fab5/NTT remaining Titans has actually begun to hurt the characters.

Yeah I had this thing going on in mind reading this thread like...

"Who are the Teen titans?"

And its kind of a two-fold question.

*frustrating*

Totally agreed. Just another example of DC trying to have its cake and eat it too. The Titans can't be an independent group of 20-somethings and the team sidekicks go to before they graduate to solo status. It's gotta be one or the other. Myself, I'd vote for the Titans to be the teen team, and let Dick and his peers move on to other things.

[Lee]

The well known Teen Titans are Robin, Raven, Starfire, Beast Boy and Cyborg. It's not an even playing field, those characters eclipse the rest.

Which isn't to say that DC Comics should always and only use that line-up. But they are 100% without question the most well known Titans.