So, Can the Titans Finally be Saved Now?

[king81992]

It was great, IMO, but they just seem to keep doing the same thing over and over. I kinda get why - that the big team for them. I mean, it got the cartoons and the show and all. I don't think they need to be tied to that lineup at all. In particular, as I've said, I want Wally and Dick and solo heroes and not on the team any longer (not that anyone expects Wally there) - I think, though, that Roy could work well and is character that benefits from working with emotionally close people. But he's currently dead. The other original NTT I think could stay or go solo. But even if we keep only some of them, don't bring in new teenagers - they are not Teen Titans anymore, just Titans. I'm prone to Vic as a leader, though I don't object to Donna. I'd keep at least two of the four (Vic, Donna, Raven or Gar). With Roy in play, I would probably keep Donna. I know they've been used, but I haven't read anything with Mal or Bumblebee really since she showed up at STAR circa 1990, I think. Liked them in YJ cartoon, though very different there than originally depicted (but hey, that was a looong time ago). They are a unit to me, though. I can think of a few other characters that I think could work, but may be too associated with other teams. Bette Kane isn't, but I'd want to downplay the Bat-association, and I'm also not sure what her current characterization is (was not fond of the 90s one, but I know enough to know she's not that now).

As far as getting the Fab Five back on track - that's an entirely different proposition.

So, are we talking getting Fab Five back on track, or the original NTT back on track, or just a Titans comic of some sort? I was sort of using a blend of the last two. But especially the last, since you said the Franchise. And I was looking to Titans, not Teen Titans.

I believe that the way forward for Cyborg is to make him lead a team and not derail him to push another character( see JLO) or if you have to push another character so it without sacrificing Vic.One of the few things that I think Johns did right was try to put Vic into a mentor/ leadership role in the TT.

[Tzigone]

What made them flourish is they got to grow up.

So very much this. Though DC surely tried to drag them back. Several were less mature in the 2000s than in the mid-to-late-80s.

But I personally don't think we need a reunion at all. I think the Fab5/NTT remaining Titans has actually begun to hurt the characters.

I agree that keeping them locked there has hurt some of them. Others, unfortunately don't really seem to have another outlet. Though with good writing, they could succeed on either.

Totally agreed. Just another example of DC trying to have its cake and eat it too. The Titans can't be an independent group of 20-somethings and the team sidekicks go to before they graduate to solo status. It's gotta be one or the other. Myself, I'd vote for the Titans to be the teen team, and let Dick and his peers move on to other things.

I'm on another page, I think. I'd probably say the original Teen Titans were the "grow up" team. The NTT were a team of young, independent professional that the team could grow up with (like X-Men who started as teens but are still on the team 10 years later). Not defined by age. But that some would leave, because it's a "all in one place" team where they are not solo heroes. Moving away or going solo means leaving the team altogether. The roster could change over time.

For me, I'd rather the Titans be the independent team and YJ have the transitional teens. Though honestly, I prefer the teens not as closely supervised as they were in the original YJ days.

One of the few things that I think Johns did right was try to put Vic into a mentor/ leadership role in the TT.

Leadership, yes. Mentorship - no. Not for me. Teams should be made of essentially equals, not junior and senior members or where all don't have the same rank or status or respect. I do not favor mixing adults and kids in a group. The kids either already have mentors or they can learn on their own just like so many of those mentors did. Once they are all grown, mixing generations is fine, as they should all regard themselves as fellow heroes and not regard the younger as members that need to be taught. For me, the point of NTT was that they weren't subordinate or junior - make them junior to other members of their own team really isn't any different than making them junior to the Justice League. Not what I want the Titans to be.

[Godlike13]

The Titans can’t afford to easily discard the characters they have going for them. This is something the last series didn’t understand, they need to build upon what they have that actually works. Let me put it this way, when your book can’t exist longer then an arc with out a certain character. You probably shouldn’t be mocking that character or diminishing that character by feeding him to other characters that are leaving to go nowhere.

If I was building a new incarnation I’d take Dick, Donna, Raven, Cyborg the the rest would would be made of new characters and characters new to the franchise. Hell might even consider slimming down to just Dick and Raven plus the new blood. Having others guest here and there. I would not do a Fab 5 book again though. As much as I like those characters they naturally put the Titans in the JL box. I have no clue what the last series was thinking trying to copy and past NTT stories onto the Fab Five. What exactly did they think that would accomplish.

[Midnight_v]

The well known Teen Titans are Robin, Raven, Starfire, Beast Boy and Cyborg. It's not an even playing field, those characters eclipse the rest.

Which isn't to say that DC Comics should always and only use that line-up. But they are 100% without question the most well known Titans.

Because of the Comics and uhm... the TV show?

That being the case. . .
Dick is Nightwing so he isn't "THE" Robin anymore. Initial upset to the dynamic. In the Books Cyborg has graduated to the Justice League.
On the TV shows, he's a member of the currently popular show: Doom Patrol.

[Holt]

Cyborg should be back with the Titans anyway. All the attempts to push him as part of the League have been a damp squib. If they wanted him to "graduate" to the JL someday, that's fine, but making him a founder gutted his entire history and all his connections with his fellow Titans.

[Midnight_v]

Cyborg should be back with the Titans anyway. All the attempts to push him as part of the League have been a damp squib. If they wanted him to "graduate" to the JL someday, that's fine, but making him a founder gutted his entire history and all his connections with his fellow Titans.

"Should"
I mean... they made a pretty big choice and commitment him being in the movie and all the books, and DCeased
I can't say but its just another drop in the bucket of "Who ARE the Titans"?

[Masterff]

Saving the Titans franchise is going to require a massive overhaul of all the characters connected to it and commitment NOT to rehash old storylines.

No. They are in the same spot as other faddish youth appeal teams that were strong in the 80s like LoSH. The demographics that drove their appeal is just no longer there. The only one left standing is X-Men. And only because X-Men has blown up as a franchise. Legion and Titans are on life support.

If the grown titans can't equal or surpass the league in importance in events, facing foes and be impactful as a whole. Then there is no point to the characters existing. Their growing is done. They need to play as a big guys now. I don't think dc views them as such a team.So they restrict them. As said, Rebirth manhattan plotline was never taken forward. It was introduced in titans and then discarded. The best issue in titans was clark and wally meeting. Neither wally nor the titan had anything in doomsday clock. As long as their skewed view is like that. Titans will be floundering as bgrade copies of justice league who is just bteam. That is neither the charcters faults nor the teams.As a team titans have better dynamics. They can give progression and can even accommodate new dynamics with new characters.

The mind frame of having to be equal to the JL or bust needs to go. That whole way of thinking is part of of the Titans problem and is a box DC needs to take them out of. That is the result of decades of lazy creators telling generic stories with a JL like formula.
They need to change that mind frame with the Titans first and foremost. It shouldnÂ’t matter if the Titans are as important as the JL. They need to overhaul how they go about the Titans. From how they operate, to the kind of stories they tell with them.

Unfortunate they will only afford the Titans mediocre creators who are conditioned to tell factory like generic stories, in factory like generic ways. Nothing is going to change for the Titans, or for any of that generation of characters, as long as they continue to just see them as creator fodder for the likes of Lobdell, Abnett, or Jurgans.

Oh yeah, *if* you're doing a reunion, you gotta use the Fab5/NTT. Not a reunion otherwise.
I'm saying that *if* you do a reunion, you can't treat them like it's still 1984. They've grown. Half the reason that book was so popular I think, is because characters got to grow. It's an oxymoron to think that locking them in one status quo will work (and why DC struggles with them so much, they're at their best when they evolve but the rest of the DCU is largely trapped in time). What made them flourish is they got to grow up.

I DONT agree with you...

The growing up was one of the best things what DC did with the Titans.
The real Problem is that they are still connected to the JL and they command them around, seen as when they were disbanded, because of the evil Donna showing up.
There has to be REAL INDEPENDENCY, no more mentor/protegee, no more orders etc.
Not B-Team etc. just two INDEPENDENT TEAMS...

Speaking about being equal to the JL...They definetely have to be considered as equal to the JL....
I see them as INDEPENDENT MODERN INTERPRETATION of the JL..

Nightwing as modern variation of Batman
Conner as modern variation of Superman
Wally as modern variation of Flash
Tempest as modern variation of Aquaman
Arsenal as modern variation of Green Arrow
.
.

Best would be to make two Titans Team (one in New York, one in San Francisco) with Dick and Tims Team, who often also work together.
Dicks Team around 30 years old,Tims team around 21-25 years old.


I REALLY DONT UNDERSTAND why their appeal shouldnt be longer there...

I AM SURE that with good storylines etc. the Titans will sell more than all other titles of DC:

a) They have big stars in their Line-Up like Conner,Bart,Wally,Nightwing and Tim.

b) They are the more modern interpretation of the traditional heroes:

1. Look: I was never a big Marvel Fan (only Spider-Man and Hulk), BUT I saw the movies and I strictly prefer how Shield/Avengers were displayed to the display of JL in Comics and Films.
I think that the look of the traditional DC Heroes is a bit outdated with their capes etc.

I like the more modern look of Nightwing,Conner,Wally,Tempest,Arsenal....to their traditional counterparts..

2. Character/behaviour in team: I always thought that Nightwing,Conner,Wally,Donna,Tempest.....are the more likeable characters and I liked them more because Clark is to perfect, Aquaman is (in Comics) to arrogant for me, I never liked Diana in Comics (to arrogant etc. for me) but Donna was AWESOME, Wally is also a more likeable character than Barry for me...Nightwing is certainly more likeable than Batman (most of the times)...

And their relationship (in team) is just better, like a big family...

I strictly believe that the Titans with good storylines and good advertising will sell MUCH more than any other DC Title, because I think that if you only read so far Comics from other publishers or come from Manga/Anime, than you might prefer the Titans to the JL

[Aahz]

I doubt it, because, like it or not, in a universe where some characters ages and others don't, Titans (especially the Fab 5) will always be the Beta Justice League, the Super-team for the Also-ran, those who didn't make the cut to the big one.

The JSA is also made up of Characters similar to the JL but that wasn't really a problem.

What the Titans need imo would be bigger story lines than in the previous runs, new villains and maybe an occasional cross over with the JL (or the JSA if they return) where they are treated with respect.

[Lee Stone]

I always find it amusing that some consider going from Titans to Justice League as 'graduating'.
It might've seemed appropriate in the '60s and '70s. Maybe even in the first few years of the '80s...

But the Titans long ago 'graduated' to their own prestigious card-carrying adult superhero team when they became 'The New Titans'
Matter of fact, I would say the Judas Contract and Dick becoming Nightwing was the whole team's rite of passage into superteam adulthood.

They don't need to be members of the Justice League to be heroes.
There's room for more than one team of heroes out there.

Especially for someone like me that is drawn to team books and chooses which ones to read based on the members.
Justice League I will almost always pass on, because it has to have the Trinity.
Which leaves just a few slots left.

The Terrifics is probably the best thing DC has done in forever, because it's not the Justice League and people aren't asking for them to 'graduate' to the League.
Although, most of them have been members of the League.

[Holt]

"Should"
I mean... they made a pretty big choice and commitment him being in the movie and all the books, and DCeased

Yeah and the movie flopped and pretty much nothing interesting was done with him as a member of the Justice League outside of the short Christopher Priest run, which was largely commentary about the fact that he didn't quite fit in with the team and that people didn't take him seriously as a Leaguer. Making him part of the team could've worked in theory, but the execution has been poor.

[Lee]

Because of the Comics and uhm... the TV show?

That being the case. . .
Dick is Nightwing so he isn't "THE" Robin anymore. Initial upset to the dynamic. In the Books Cyborg has graduated to the Justice League.
On the TV shows, he's a member of the currently popular show: Doom Patrol.

All I said was that Robin, Raven, Starfire, Beast Boy and Cyborg are the well known Teen Titans.

Do you disagree with this?

[Aahz]

He is now in Doom Patrol in live action, and in the comics he was with Starfire ind JL Odysse. So it looks like they have given up on establishing him as a member of the main JL.

[Ascended]

I'm on another page, I think. I'd probably say the original Teen Titans were the "grow up" team. The NTT were a team of young, independent professional that the team could grow up with (like X-Men who started as teens but are still on the team 10 years later). Not defined by age. But that some would leave, because it's a "all in one place" team where they are not solo heroes. Moving away or going solo means leaving the team altogether. The roster could change over time.

For me, I'd rather the Titans be the independent team and YJ have the transitional teens. Though honestly, I prefer the teens not as closely supervised as they were in the original YJ days.

I'd be fine with that. Well, I'm not partial either way, I just want DC to pick one and stick with it.

But I think, when most people (especially the casuals and potential fans DC is always trying to nab) imagine the "Titans" they imagine a Robin and a Kid Flash and other young heroes. I think the brand recognition skews to the young versions of the team. And yeah, in the larger media stuff the Robin has usually been Dick, but who's behind the mask isn't as important when it comes to branding. So just for the business of it, I'd probably say the teens should get to be Titans, and the adults can move on to other things.

[Korath]

The JSA is also made up of Characters similar to the JL but that wasn't really a problem.

What the Titans need imo would be bigger story lines than in the previous runs, new villains and maybe an occasional cross over with the JL (or the JSA if they return) where they are treated with respect.

If they are on the same Earth, at the same time ? Yes it's a problem.

Because, like it or not, the aura of the Justice League far outstrip the ones of other teams. Why would anyone invent a brand new great villain to send him the way of the JSA or the Titans, when he can unleash him on the Justice League to show how dangerous he is ?

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but for all intent and purpose, for people like me who didn't read NTT or the Fab 5 era (because the former was only starting to get released last year in France, in French, for the first time ever and the latter simply doesn't exist here), Nightwing and co. are clearly a step or two below the JL.

[Digifiend]

He is now in Doom Patrol in live action, and in the comics he was with Starfire ind JL Odysse. So it looks like they have given up on establishing him as a member of the main JL.

And the Young Justice cartoon made him an Outsider instead of a Leaguer.