So, Can the Titans Finally be Saved Now?

[Digifiend]

Well, Bendis agrees with you about Conner at least, because that is indeed the pre-Flashpoint version he's using.

[king81992]

I think the bigger problem with Deathstroke is that he is a successfull solo characater on his own (more sucessfull than any Titan with exception of Dick and maybe Wally), and not really the villain of anyone else anymore.
But thats also something that allready happend during the NTT era.

Btw. the thing with "praoching villains" could also work in reverse, the JL has imo also out grown alot of their older villains that the Titans could proach. And those guys would still be a massive step up from H.I.V.E. or the The Fearsome Five.

Deathstroke only got popular because Wolfman decided to pretend he did nothing wrong and justify all his crimes to push him.

Or you could upgrade H.I.V.E and actually give the Fearsome Five personalities. The Fearsome Five have more personality in cartoons than the comics ever bothered to give him.

[sifighter]

I mean I could see the adult titans or even the teen titans fight Grail. I think It’d be pretty cool if the daughter of Darkseid himself had a story arc of her fighting the titans, especially with either Donna Troy or Cassie on the team.

[Aahz]

Deathstroke only got popular because Wolfman decided to pretend he did nothing wrong and justify all his crimes to push him.

Doesn't change the fact that he is now a character with roughly 150 solo issues under his belt.

Thats similar to Harley Quinn, she is also not going back to be Joker's sidekick anytime soon.

Or you could upgrade H.I.V.E and actually give the Fearsome Five personalities. The Fearsome Five have more personality in cartoons than the comics ever bothered to give him.

Might work or might not, depending on the execution.(I don't really see much of a point in doing anything with H.I.V.E since there is nothing really special or interesting about this organisation.)

But even if you make them work, the Titans would need more villains. And most villains from NTT (like Brother Blood or Trigon) really work only for one big story, and were despite this done way to often at this point.

[Ascended]

Even if the Titans are little below the League in importance, they can have still epic stories and big villains, even if they are on the same earth.

I think part of the issue is that the Titans don't really have a motive or niche that sets them apart.

Nobody thinks the Doom Patrol is as important as the League. But the Patrol has their own niche and reason for existing, and their goals, purpose and role are all different enough from the League that you don't end up with comparisons.

Same goes for a lot of other teams, like the Outsiders and Suicide Squad and Teen Titans; they're not doing the same stuff the League is, so nobody really compares them.

The JSA and NTT are the ones who end up with these negative comparisons. Both teams consist of heroes who are the best of the best for their generation, and both teams work together to defeat world-ending threats so big their members couldn't handle it solo. Best heroes of their generation? Working against huge threats? That's exactly what the League does.

So find a different reason for the NTT and JSA to exist and they won't be compared to the League as much. Make the JSA sanctioned and run by the US government. Do something equally different with the Titans (and no, "friendship is magic" does not, has not, and will not work) and they won't be compared to the League as often either.

[Digifiend]

I just thought of something... the most recent version of the Titans was working with the Justice League seeking out metahumans who got their powers due to Dark Nights Metal. Doesn't that sound similar to the direction the Young Justice cartoon went in? The Team was also working with the League, and sometimes, they rescue new metas (Superboy at the start of season 1, Static in the middle of season 2, Geo-Force and Halo at the beginning of season 3, among others). What do you think of that being niche for the New Teen Titans generation? Seeking out and defeating or helping (and training?) newly emerging metas. They wouldn't be treated as inferior to the JL because their main mission would be a different job, supporting new heroes and defeating inexperienced villains so that the JL can focus on the big cosmic threats. Also means they won't be stuck fighting Trigon and Brother Blood every year.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The Titans were in no way looked at as being equal to the JL before Flashpoint. They were probably even behind the JSA at that time. They haven't been looked at as a team on the JL's level since probably the early 90s? It's been a long time. The Titans franchise has been a disaster since then too. The best thing that happened to Nightwing is that the Batman office took him back and made him a solo character as it prevented him from going down with the Titans ship in the 90s.

Well, for a long while they were, hence the incredibly successful run and media adaptations. And honestly, I don't think it was as early as you think since the Titans had at least a few decent runs throughout the 90s from the likes of Dan Jurgens and Devin Grayson and were still looked at as equals of the League. They even had a crossover arc in JLA/Titans since they were seen as DC's two biggest teams.

It was only really in the early 2000s that the mismanagement really got serious when the Graduation Day storyline ended with the disbanding of the Titans and Young Justice teams. They'd eventually form a new Teen Titans team comprised of former Titans and YJ members when before that they were distinct and separate. That move started the perception that there was this hierarchy of Young Justice to Titans to JLA. Although, even then the Geoff Johns run on Teen Titans was actually not a bad run.

I mean back in the NTT days Dick's generation of characters were the youngest generation. They didn't have Tim or Damian's generation to compete with in the "young heroes" space. So they had a lot more freedom to move around and not have to compete with the JL characters directly.

They don't have to be the youngest generation. Even in the aforementioned Geoff Johns run, which was the last really popular run on the team, the classic Titans members were adults who acted as mentors to the YJ. And, to compare them to another team, the X-Men also started out as younger heroes and much of their classic stories played up that aspect. The X-Men, like the Titans, were a team of kids basically navigating interpersonal conflicts as well as superheroics. However, the difference is that after the Claremont-Byrne run that put the X-Men on the map, they were still allowed to be their own thing and Marvel continuously invested in the team.

After Wolfman left the Titans, certain "editorial elements" came aboard DC who seemed to have an issue with characters like Dick Grayson making characters like Bruce Wayne look old by comparison. So, they decided that it was better to just sabotage the Titans instead of letting them be their own thing. It's kind of like how Marvel tried to replace the X-Men with the Inhumans for a little while but for a much longer time.

However, that's the key. The Titans just need to be seen as their own thing again, like they used to be. They aren't the "young heroes team" nor are they the "mini Justice League." They are their own team. They have their own headquarters, their own villains, their own mythology. They're the team that stopped Trigon from enslaving their dimension and the one that has made sworn enemies of Deathstroke.

I just don't really see a path for the Titans to ever regain any sort of large prominent role. They will keep deaging Raven and Beast Boy to fit in with whatever young Titans team there is (sometimes they will even throw Starfire in there too), the JL is still written and positioned to be THE hero team that dictates the roles of most of the other hero teams in the DCU, the JL is still the team that they put heroes when they want to elevate them and push them like a Cyborg or a new Green Lantern, the Titans live action TV show has lead nothing for them in the comics, DC seems to want to fold the adult Titans team into the JL but not have them be actual JL members, characters like Dick can never join the JL if Batman is there so they are stuck in this weird place, and the most well known Titans villains like Deathstroke DC would rather turn into a JL or Batman villain than have him be a Titans one. There are just so many things in their way preventing them from having an important role in the DCU again that I don't know how it ever gets fixed now.

Again, that's a mistake on DC's part. The things you're citing are symptoms of mismanagement, not inherent weaknesses in the concept of the Titans. The JLA really doesn't have any realistic right to dictate what other hero teams in the DCU do and in fact, for a long time, they didn't. The Doom Patrol, the JSA, the Green Lantern Corps, and yes, the Titans all acted independently of the JLA. And that's what's better for the DCU overall. If the League is the only DC team that matters, then the DCU becomes boring.

And obviously, there is interest in the Titans characters. When there's a ******action series, the Teen Titans animated series, Teen Titans Go, and even the Young Justice series, which features many of the Titans characters, its obious that there's an audience out there. DC just needs to see the writing on the wall and just lets the Titans be their own team again.

[king81992]

I mean I could see the adult titans or even the teen titans fight Grail. I think It’d be pretty cool if the daughter of Darkseid himself had a story arc of her fighting the titans, especially with either Donna Troy or Cassie on the team.

Grail should be pushed as a Cyborg villain instead of a Wonder Woman villain. Grail is a lone wolf and Cyborg is a team player, Grail is serious 100% of the time and Cyborg is...less serious( writers need to remember he can be funny at times instead of man vs machine angst) and Cyborg has a Mother Box which gives him a direct connection to Grail's people, the New Gods.

[Lee]

After Wolfman left the Titans, certain "editorial elements" came aboard DC who seemed to have an issue with characters like Dick Grayson making characters like Bruce Wayne look old by comparison. So, they decided that it was better to just sabotage the Titans instead of letting them be their own thing.

What time frame are we talking here? Immediately after Wolfman left?

[SiegePerilous02]

The Titans really weren't exactly equal with the JL in terms of feats even when their stories were good. We have the first arc against Trigon, but after that they fight the likes of Deathstroke (who shouldn't be a League level threat on his own), the H.I.V.E (who are deliberately written as being pathetic), goods like Trident, Disruptor and the Puppeteer, and groups like the Brotherhood of Evil or worse, the Fearsome Five. Brother Blood and his cult ran circle around them their first few encounters. Compare that to the JL who has Superman, Wonder Woman, MM and GL on their roster (among others) and who frequently deal with threats like the White Martians, the host of heaven or Darkseid.

I like all these villains and the NTT run was full of great stories, but it was Bronze Age superhero fare and not the larger than life myth stuff that the JL is cemented as dealing with, at least now. Even with the actual Titans of Myth in the stories, the Titans seem more passive in going along with everything than the JL typically does.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The Titans really weren't exactly equal with the JL in terms of feats even when their stories were good. We have the first arc against Trigon, but after that they fight the likes of Deathstroke (who shouldn't be a League level threat on his own), the H.I.V.E (who are deliberately written as being pathetic), goods like Trident, Disruptor and the Puppeteer, and groups like the Brotherhood of Evil or worse, the Fearsome Five. Brother Blood and his cult ran circle around them their first few encounters. Compare that to the JL who has Superman, Wonder Woman, MM and GL on their roster (among others) and who frequently deal with threats like the White Martians, the host of heaven or Darkseid.

I like all these villains and the NTT run was full of great stories, but it was Bronze Age superhero fare and not the larger than life myth stuff that the JL is cemented as dealing with, at least now. Even with the actual Titans of Myth in the stories, the Titans seem more passive in going along with everything than the JL typically does.

But don't the JLA also frequently fight Vandal Savage, Professor Ivo, and T.O. Morrow who are all, well, not Darkseid? That's the point. Every team of heroes has a rogues gallery that's varied.

[SiegePerilous02]

But don't the JLA also frequently fight Vandal Savage, Professor Ivo, and T.O. Morrow who are all, well, not Darkseid? That's the point. Every team of heroes has a rogues gallery that's varied.

Yes but for the League it's more of a regular thing and more varied than the Titans. The Titans don't have much of a regular rogues gallery outside of the ones in NTT, and most of those can't believably go against some of the bigger solo JL members. I think Superman (the weaker post crisis version) has solo'd the entire Fearsome Five at least once when it usually takes the entire Titans team to take them down. And Superman is on a team that includes both him, Wonder Woman, the Flash, a GL, etc.

Their biggest villain is Trigon naturally, but he's (understandably) rarely used. And in his most iconic story, the thing that made the Titans heroes was the fact that they didn't back down even though he completely outclassed him. He took out the JL too, but the Titans didn't beat him themselves. Azar and the souls of Azarath did most of the work and finished him off.

[Lee]

It doesn't really matter how powerful the Titans and their villains are. What matters is that the series is about something and has a strong foundation and direction. The heroes and antagonists should then reflect that direction.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yes but for the League it's more of a regular thing and more varied than the Titans. The Titans don't have much of a regular rogues gallery outside of the ones in NTT

Well, I'm not so sure of that. I don't know if the Titans villains are that much more obscure or less regular than the League's and at the same time, I think the NTT run alone gives them at least a solid foundation.

and most of those can't believably go against some of the bigger solo JL members. I think Superman (the weaker post crisis version) has solo'd the entire Fearsome Five at least once when it usually takes the entire Titans team to take them down. And Superman is on a team that includes both him, Wonder Woman, the Flash, a GL, etc.

And then you have cases like when Deathstroke soloed an entire team of Leaguers including a Flash and Green Lantern. Also, I don't know if that's completely relevant to the popularity of a franchise. I'm pretty sure that Superman can take out all of Batman's rogues and Spider-Man's rogues by himself, yet the latter two are consistently more popular than the former. No offense to Superman because I love Superman. However, it's not about the strength of the character and their villains. It's about maintaining at least the perception that the villains and character are well-developed characters who can make for compelling stories.

Their biggest villain is Trigon naturally, but he's (understandably) rarely used. And in his most iconic story, the thing that made the Titans heroes was the fact that they didn't back down even though he completely outclassed him. He took out the JL too, but the Titans didn't beat him themselves. Azar and the souls of Azarath did most of the work and finished him off.

Eh. I'm pretty sure their most famous and popular villain, though, is Deathstroke. And he's, for all intents and purposes, just a guy. But he's an awesome character, so that's why he's popular.

[Lee Stone]

Superman can beat most of the JLA's villains by himself. He's Superman.

(Of course, then he'd be infringing on Batman's territory.)