Should Wanda Maximoff (Scarlet Witch stand trial for House of M ?

[Soulsword323]

That's the question, did Wanda lash out deliberately in that moment or was she possessed by the Life Force? The question that Marvel has been unable or unwilling to answer for over a decade. However, Lorna has no such excuse. She didn't choose for the sentinels to attack Genosha, but she did choose to pledge herself to its protection, including from sentinels. And the question comes down to, is (potentially) deliberate action better or worse than deliberate inaction?

I'm sorry, but Lorna's not responsible for the Genosha genocide. People were going to die regardless if Lorna acted or not. The Sentinels are what caused all of that, and it's not something Polaris is responsible for. Wanda is the person behind M-Day. She was given the power to do that, but not given the specifics to do exactly what she did. I just don't think there is a strong correlation between the two personally.

[Havok83]

We really trying to blame Lorna for what Cassandra Nova did to Genosha?

[teapartyofthedead]

I'm sorry, but Lorna's not responsible for the Genosha genocide. People were going to die regardless if Lorna acted or not. The Sentinels are what caused all of that, and it's not something Polaris is responsible for. Wanda is the person behind M-Day. She was given the power to do that, but not given the specifics to do exactly what she did. I just don't think there is a strong correlation between the two personally.

Lorna is not responsible for the genocide happening, but that wasn't the original point brought up. It was, 'what was the worse that Lorna did, and is it comparable in moral action to the worse that Wanda has done'? This again leads to, 'is Wanda, under the influence of the Life Force or not, saying NMM, worse or better than Lorna choosing to abandon her duty without trying to protect anyone or stop it because she was afraid'.

And it's digression from the original topic.

[gurkle]

I think it's a real stretch to argue that any hero, or even most villains, have done worse than Wanda. Hal Jordan, I guess.

Which is kind of the point. The writers made her do something that would never let her be a hero again, and for some reason they won't just retcon her into being not guilty. Unless Hickman has the go-ahead for some kind of resurrection/alternate version of the character then she'll never be past it, at least not as long as X-Men comics are more popular than Avengers comics (which means forever).

[ExodusCloak]

Hopefully she's forgotten about in X-Men Empyre #4 those items she bargained for seem pretty necromancy. I can't see this ending well for her but I suppose I find that aspect interesting. I hate the fox mandate but I don't hate HoM the decimation stories were good IMO. So is what we have now though

[teapartyofthedead]

I think it's a real stretch to argue that any hero, or even most villains, have done worse than Wanda. Hal Jordan, I guess.

Which is kind of the point. The writers made her do something that would never let her be a hero again, and for some reason they won't just retcon her into being not guilty. Unless Hickman has the go-ahead for some kind of resurrection/alternate version of the character then she'll never be past it, at least not as long as X-Men comics are more popular than Avengers comics (which means forever).

At last we come back to the topic.

What Wanda was written to do was the result of sloppy writing and worse research. This was made worse by Children's Crusade making everything deliberately vague. It was the greatest disservice they could have done to her and them. Then, they let it keep going and going, creating a feud between fans of the two franchises. We now have a toxic mix of resentment and rivalry that was deliberately fueled in the name of profit. They're milking HoM for all it's worth, not giving two figs about either mutants or Wanda. The feelings we fans have for these characters is not shared by the people who receive a paycheck for it.

[gurkle]

Hopefully she's forgotten about in X-Men Empyre #4

I'm glad I don't hate any character enough to feel that way. Wanda's fans have been waiting like 15 years to see her stop getting used as a plot device and then forgotten about.

[Havok83]

I think it's a real stretch to argue that any hero, or even most villains, have done worse than Wanda. Hal Jordan, I guess.

Which is kind of the point. The writers made her do something that would never let her be a hero again, and for some reason they won't just retcon her into being not guilty. Unless Hickman has the go-ahead for some kind of resurrection/alternate version of the character then she'll never be past it, at least not as long as X-Men comics are more popular than Avengers comics (which means forever).

But they have allowed her to be a hero again. Ive said this before and will reiterate it here, but its X-fans that have not let go. Within the comics Marvel has largely moved on and Wandas has been accepted back within the superhero community and gone on to continue to be a hero. I also disagree about the retcon. They did that with CC despite how sloppy that was. It absolved her by placing questionable doubt; enough so for the X-men to leave her alone. What we saw in Empyre was more of a morality thing as she should feel guilty regardless of the circumstances. Its too bad it took this long but that vulnerability was needed a long time ago to help redeem her

[teapartyofthedead]

I'm glad I don't hate any character enough to feel that way. Wanda's fans have been waiting like 15 years to see her stop getting used as a plot device and then forgotten about.

It's exhausting to combat how much hate Wanda gets, and dispiriting.

Maybe Wanda is a spoilers:

sleeper agent cotati like She-Hulk

end of spoilers. Maybe she's shambling around, seeing if vegetarianism as a zombie is any better than when she was alive. Maybe she's trapped in that staff, and trying to get out. A definitive answer actually forthcoming would be refreshing.

[gurkle]

What we saw in Empyre was more of a morality thing as she should feel guilty regardless of the circumstances. Its too bad it took this long but that vulnerability was needed a long time ago to help redeem her

Agreed, that's why it was disappointing that that scene of her being remorseful and wanting to fix things wound up just being an excuse to have her screw up and (and this is worse than screwing up) vanish from the story without even knowing or caring if she's alive or dead. That doesn't make me optimistic about Hickman's plans.

I think in-story most characters seem to accept that Wanda is a hero again, but in practice she rarely gets to do anything heroic. Remender had her a) be an ******* to Rogue, b) screw up and teleport mutants to another planet, c) die, d) screw up a spell and turn half the heroes, including herself, evil, e) waste half a year on a new origin retcon mandated by Marvel's management. And that's the only big role she's had in a team book since 2004.

[GenericUsername]

But they have allowed her to be a hero again. Ive said this before and will reiterate it here, but its X-fans that have not let go. Within the comics Marvel has largely moved on and Wandas has been accepted back within the superhero community and gone on to continue to be a hero. I also disagree about the retcon. They did that with CC despite how sloppy that was. It absolved her by placing questionable doubt; enough so for the X-men to leave her alone. What we saw in Empyre was more of a morality thing as she should feel guilty regardless of the circumstances. Its too bad it took this long but that vulnerability was needed a long time ago to help redeem her

That's why I say it's so late to have that conclusion of a trial, and that it just needs a retcon. Because they waited too long and haven't really come up with anything gratifying so far.

If they even had her be a villain for a time, taking into consideration the character and all, it'd have even been better than what they did. Because they could have built up villainy and then the redemption later. They sadly didn't care about her enough and left her to wither as a plot device. They didn't care about her as a hero nor an antagonist.

[RachelGrey]

Lorna is not responsible for the genocide happening, but that wasn't the original point brought up. It was, 'what was the worse that Lorna did, and is it comparable in moral action to the worse that Wanda has done'? This again leads to, 'is Wanda, under the influence of the Life Force or not, saying NMM, worse or better than Lorna choosing to abandon her duty without trying to protect anyone or stop it because she was afraid'.

And it's digression from the original topic.

Also, I thought for Lorna is that she barely contained the explosion and she was in the middle of it all when all the explosions started and she was overwhelmed! She could see everyone dying around her and she couldn't protect everyone, she could barely protect herself! I thought Lorna's guilt that she wasn't strong enough to protect everyone, and she wasn't able to arrive in time to stop the Sentinels! If Lorna is more "connected" to things through her powers she may have felt the energy of the weapons killing everyone because I thought it was also mentioned that Lorna felt everyone dying around her! Emma felt everyone dying around her too because she instinctively reached out telepathically to try and help but she was overwhelmed and her secondary mutation triggered turning her into a diamond!

Emma and Lorna suffer from survivors guild for Genosha!

[Steel Inquisitor]

He was going to be killed in prison, there was not going to be a trial for him despite him wishing to stay there, he told this to Wolverine and Logan agreed, still the X-men didn´t swept under the rug his actions, or say there was no problem anymore, he had to take responsibility a go from there.

My point is that for Wanda´s character to truly go forward marvel needs to threat her as an actual character, not a plot device and that involves taking in consideration all her story in a logical and character driven way.

Which is tragic but hardly justice, where did you think they were going to put him before trial? On house arrest? As soon as he was out he hasn't looked back at going on trial for what he did and he got away with it. Of course there was going to be a trial. Says the man who left prison ASAP and didn't look back. He took absolutely no responsibility and was rewarded for it by becoming the Great Captain of Krakoa and living large on the moon. Had Wanda done this people would be calling for her head. He ran away, when the X-men came for Wanda she surrendered.

This ignores the other factors involved, like Childeren's Crusade, which people ignore because she's shown even more not to be the bad guy. Nobody's calling a trial for Doom on his involvement.

[teapartyofthedead]

Also, I thought for Lorna is that she barely contained the explosion and she was in the middle of it all when all the explosions started and she was overwhelmed! She could see everyone dying around her and she couldn't protect everyone, she could barely protect herself! I thought Lorna's guilt that she wasn't strong enough to protect everyone, and she wasn't able to arrive in time to stop the Sentinels! If Lorna is more "connected" to things through her powers she may have felt the energy of the weapons killing everyone because I thought it was also mentioned that Lorna felt everyone dying around her! Emma felt everyone dying around her too because she instinctively reached out telepathically to try and help but she was overwhelmed and her secondary mutation triggered turning her into a diamond!

Emma and Lorna suffer from survivors guild for Genosha!

This is the point. Sympathy was extended from the start for such actions, and benefit of the doubt was always given to Lorna by not only her fans, but other X-readers. It's why everyone originally was so angry with Chuck Austen for treating her the way he did for the wedding. Lorna treating Nurse Annie with such utter hostility was always derided by everyone as being completely out of character for her. So much so they demanded a damn good reason for it. Her being a stalwart X-Men let everyone know that no matter how many times she's been possessed, it's never her fault.

But this isn't extended to Wanda. Because she isn't an X-Men, and because she never faced a trial of her peers from the mutant community. So it never mattered to most X-fans because it was immediately followed up by Uncanny Avengers, making it look like Wanda had indeed did it and gotten away with it. Because Marvel never gave a flying brick what HoM made Wanda into: a pariah and war criminal. They just wanted to cripple the X-Men, and Wanda was the scapegoat they chose. People just accepted that this must be in character for her, because she had no presence in the x-books beyond as the reason why everything horrible was happening. So what good will was there from X-fans to give her the benefit of the doubt that they did for Lorna? Instead, Rick Remender squandered that completely. Removing her mutant status, and then making her happy about it, was the last straw for many of them.

And now one of my favorite characters is seen as someone who can't take responsibility for her own actions, and when she does, she does it in the most incompetent manner possible. She's a living plot device to make bad things happen, with no road to redemption, and there many who think this is good and right and proper. It's been utterly exhausting to be a Wanda fan for the last fifteen years.

[Steel Inquisitor]

They should just Parallax the whole House of M thing. Sure, it was a dumb retcon, but it allowed them to just get back to telling stories about Hal without needing to bring up those previous stories every single time he appeared.

Hal was like Wanda in that he originally snapped after Coast City, but he kept going after the initial incident and he thought he was right the whole time and acted lucid. House of M didn't start this, Avengers: Dissembled did and even Bendis wrote her as being mentally compromised and the Life Force retcon fit her far more than Parallax did with Hal. Wanda's didn't spend twenty years as a super-villain destroying mutants in a clear manner like he did, but her detractors would want you to think she did. Parallax also made Hal more interesting, and him being a villain they squandered mostly. Hal also was routinely insulted by people in the GLC and other groups for years, Parallax was a huge shadow over him and hew as allowed to earn redemption multiple times on panel. This was denied to Wanda.