Should Wanda Maximoff (Scarlet Witch stand trial for House of M ?

[sunofdarkchild]

I think Marvel should never have messed up their marriage in the late 80s. Vision and Scarlet Witch were among Marvel's premiere couples for a while and the unusual relationship made them interesting. Both characters have suffered badly since Vision was disassembled and lost his feelings in the original West Coast Avengers.

[Striderblack01]

I do support that lol

Oh good!

I'm legit recruiting over here.
I wasn't trying to be facetious.

[GenericUsername]

Um who is out there schlupping trees?!?? Even so Aliens, trees are biological systems, they have genetics that comes from another biological system. Vision however doesnt. Sooo its kinda unusual

No one is denying her Romani heritage, but it doesnt mean she doesn't look, and overwhelmingly is treated like a shes 100% white
Right? like for some people who cant seem to grasp the KraKoa and KraKoans as a allegory for minorities gaining agency there's a lot of metaphors being thrown around.

She's not treated like she's white. It is in her history that her family was attacked out of hatred of Romani. It's a weird thing Marvel has going there. Like they want her to be Romani but not look it. It could just be a mistake. A misinterpetation of how they feel Romani look. But also groups like Romapop have talked to them and nothing seems to have changed.

I'd like to know why they have this conflict though. And why most of the characters they make Romani also have some magical background.

But it's definitely a problem with the creators and not the character. She's fictional, she doesn't control anything here.

[Alan2099]

But it's not dating someone outside her races She was dating someone that almost alive....I wouldn't designate a race to Vision personally but if I had to it would be white. Seeing someone have a romantic relationship with someone that may or may not have the capacity to return the same feelings is troubling. +Knowing about Wanda's powers it seems likely she was lowkey manipulating the Vision to express himself in ways that she and others would read as human.

Her powers didn't work like that when their relationship started and Vision has been showing signs of emotion ever since his first appearance.

No one is denying her Romani heritage, but it doesnt mean she doesn't look, and overwhelmingly is treated like a shes 100% white
Right? like for some people who cant seem to grasp the KraKoa and KraKoans as a allegory for minorities gaining agency there's a lot of metaphors being thrown around.

So... what are you saying here? Because she's a minority she needs to look and act a certain way, otherwise she's just white?

[gurkle]

Isn't that just an unavoidable part of the fact that she wasn't Romani originally? We obviously wouldn't expect her to look like she was Romani when she and Pietro were the children of the Whizzer and Miss America. Theoretically they should look as if they could have been mistaken for the children of at least four different sets of parents (Whizzer/Miss America, Magneto/Magda, Django/Marya and now Natalya/Whatshisname).

I want to tread lightly here because I know many people find Wanda to be one of the few examples of positive Romani representation in comics and I don't want to take that away, so if people can push for that aspect of their history to be emphasized more, good for them.

Though speaking for my own identity group I've never really understood why they're considered Jewish representation, considering that Magneto was not yet established as Jewish when he was established as their father. At least that retcon established them as having been raised Romani, but they never identified as Jewish in any way.

[GenericUsername]

Isn't that just an unavoidable part of the fact that she wasn't Romani originally? We obviously wouldn't expect her to look like she was Romani when she and Pietro were the children of the Whizzer and Miss America. Theoretically they should look as if they could have been mistaken for the children of at least four different sets of parents (Whizzer/Miss America, Magneto/Magda, Django/Marya and now Natalya/Whatshisname).

I want to tread lightly here because I know many people find Wanda to be one of the few examples of positive Romani representation in comics and I don't want to take that away, so if people can push for that aspect of their history to be emphasized more, good for them.

Though speaking for my own identity group I've never really understood why they're considered Jewish representation, considering that Magneto was not yet established as Jewish when he was established as their father. At least that retcon established them as having been raised Romani, but they never identified as Jewish in any way.

The positive representation thing is because there is a shallow well. And it's bare minimum that they made Romani characters heroes at all and had Wanda lead teams. But there are lots of problems.

The problem isn't also that she and Pietro look white as there are white look Romani. It's that every Romani character in comics and pretty much western pop culture all look white or are only part Romani.

Wanda is Pagan, for some reason that doesn't make sense. So I don't understand the Jewish identity thing either. I think people are just hammering for rep where they can get it. Despite her never having practiced Judaism, only having been of descent when she was Mags' kid.

[GenericUsername]

So... what are you saying here? Because she's a minority she needs to look and act a certain way, otherwise she's just white?

Yeah there's all kinds of problematic flags there. She definitely doesn't look like most Romani. But treated as is a problem. Because there is a history of discrimination against her. I'm not sure what else they mean.

[jmc247]

The worse thing Lorna ever did in her own words

Attachment 99691

When people needed her most, she ran away to save herself. It was her greatest shame, and that's what let her to attack Nurse Annie after Alex stopped the wedding. Not because she was just that in love with Alex, but because the guilt of her actions was tormenting her and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Wanda's actions, whether she was possessed or not, led her to commit genocide because she wanted her children back. Lorna's inaction, while not possessed by anything but her own survival instinct, let a genocide happen on her watch so she could escape to safety. The question being asked is: are these actions in anyway comparable?

While an interesting discussion in and of itself, I can't help but feel it's digressing from the topic: should Wanda stand trial for HoM? At this point, the poll points to a narrow percentage in favor of her not being put on trial. It's too bad it can't specify if Wanda should face any kind of punishment or reprimand for it, or be forgiven or offered a road to redemption in anyway even if she was found guilty.

In any case, one thing we can all agree on: this is gone on long enough. I hope to god after Empyre, Hickman finally put it to rest one way or another. Just let poor Wanda finally take charge of this and be given a set of requirements to atone, instead of everyone stewing in their resentment.

It should be Lorna's greatest life regret though a somewhat different psychology is at play. It should be comparable on one level in that they both should badly want to right what they believe they failed at. But, beyond that the two areas start to diverge.

[teapartyofthedead]

It should be Lorna's greatest life regret though a somewhat different psychology is at play. It should be comparable on one level in that they both should badly want to right what they believe they failed at. But, beyond that the two areas start to diverge.

It’s a pity Empyre wasn’t Wanda and Lorna talking about the search for redemption, and M-Day and Genosha. That would have preferable to what we actually got. Lorna has far more right to chew out Wanda than Strange did, and would have been earned. Hell, this could have been both their moment to shine as they worked together to collect the parts for the anti-staff while having a cathartic argument. Unfortunately, I don’t think that ever crossed Hickman’s mind, or ever would.

[BroHomo]

Ugh I deleted just as I finsihed but...

This is a tangent. We both know this isn't about skin color, it's about Vision not being a human. WE know Vision's race, it's Synthezoid, a subspecies of android. Vision just looks white as a human because he shapes shifts, like J'onn J'onz his true form is not human. It's Marvel, androids who are able to be alive is a genre staple.

Synthezoid is not a race...more like a brand. There's none of the weight of being an actual minority that comes with being a Synthezoid.
Martian Manhunter would get a pass....as he regularly takes on minority personas and is ya know a biological being. I get that the androids are alive...but so are plants. But expecting a ficus to return your love is just reeeeaching

Read Avengers comics, Vision's not being manipulated. Why did you jump to that conclusion? What are you basing this on?

lol Cause it seems like a pretty easy leap. Wanda literally tricked herself into believing she had given birth to twins. Theres stuff from their first limited series that is definitely suspect. Sooo It wouldn't be shocking to find out she had been manipulating the 'Happy Father' Just ignore the story stemming from her manipulating her friends and family?
OoooooK

Numerous writers have had varying opinions on their relationship, this doesn't erase the fact they have wanted a family before. Wanda's gotten insulted on this very forum for wanting children with him, in fact.

Vision doesnt have genitalia, I doubt forreal spreading his nonexistent seed is a big priority to him. He's a machine who miiight be a lil more durable than humans so his time table wouldnt even be the same. He was alive for how many minutes before Wanda snatched him up. Wanda has had a healthy number of romanticships. Buuut How many organic chicks has Vision dated since then? Why isnt he cruising the Wiccan Bars tryna magick up the kids he is striving to create. The more I think about it It seems like Wanda is manipulating him. Which is just another thing to add to all the fvcked up stuff Wanda does.

She's not treated like she's white. It is in her history that her family was attacked out of hatred of Romani. It's a weird thing Marvel has going there. Like they want her to be Romani but not look it. It could just be a mistake.

Yeah yeaaaars ago. not that it negates her being a minority but for example before the retcon I wouldn't say she was being treated as not human and instead a mutant menace.

Her powers didn't work like that when their relationship started and Vision has been showing signs of emotion ever since his first appearance.

Yeah dude Its been retconned sooo now they do.

So... what are you saying here? Because she's a minority she needs to look and act a certain way, otherwise she's just white?

No Im saying that hamfist racial discrimination as big part of her narrative is a choice. But We know for a fact before the retcon she was more accepted than 99% of other mutants and hardly felt any of the bigotry mutants face

It’s a pity Empyre wasn’t Wanda and Lorna talking about the search for redemption, and M-Day and Genosha. That would have preferable to what we actually got. Lorna has far more right to chew out Wanda than Strange did, and would have been earned. Hell, this could have been both their moment to shine as they worked together to collect the parts for the anti-staff while having a cathartic argument. Unfortunately, I don’t think that ever crossed Hickman’s mind, or ever would.

Ehhh I don't think theres a large audience amped to read about Wanda passing the blame to yet ANOTHER person

[gurkle]

But We know for a fact before the retcon she was more accepted than 99% of other mutants and hardly felt any of the bigotry mutants face

The first part is true, the second part isn't. During the big "mutant freakout" of 1984 (when all the comics were required to have some reference to the wave of anti-mutant bigotry) Wanda's house was burned to the ground and the arsonists left a note "tell the mutie and her husband to go back where they came from." And the arsonists never got caught and got away with it.

The usual portrayal of Wanda was that she had gotten as much bigotry as any other mutant (and remember, Wanda and Pietro were "out" mutants on the Avengers while the X-Men all had secret identities and concealed being mutants), but because she was an Avenger she was more accepted by the general public than the X-Men, except by out-and-out anti-mutant bigots. That was also the case with Beast when he was on the Avengers.

[teapartyofthedead]

Ehhh I don't think theres a large audience amped to read about Wanda passing the blame to yet ANOTHER person

No, my thing was Wanda tries to make the anti-staff, gets caught by Lorna. Lorna insists on going to help, and on the way Lorna tells Wanda off about doing this without involving the Quiet Council or anyone in Krakoa. Having Lorna express how she felt about this resurrection being done, especially as she survived Genosha in the first place, would have been far preferable to Strange being such a hypocritical *******. Lorna at least earned the right to do so. Also, if Wanda did cry, it would be due to feeling regret for hurting someone she was trying to help, not because a male authority figure called her a fool.

Strange chewing Wanda out carries a whole different context than Lorna doing so. One treats Wanda like a little girl that needs her hand slapped to learn to avoid fire; the other is two sisters having an emotional and dramatic reunion as one makes a terrible mistake to atone for a previous sin. The first is just insulting, the second has history and weight.

I think there would be audience to see that.

[GenericUsername]

Ugh I deleted just as I finsihed but...
Synthezoid is not a race...more like a brand. There's none of the weight of being an actual minority that comes with being a Synthezoid.
Martian Manhunter would get a pass....as he regularly takes on minority personas and is ya know a biological being. I get that the androids are alive...but so are plants. But expecting a ficus to return your love is just reeeeaching

lol Cause it seems like a pretty easy leap. Wanda literally tricked herself into believing she had given birth to twins. Theres stuff from their first limited series that is definitely suspect. Sooo It wouldn't be shocking to find out she had been manipulating the 'Happy Father' Just ignore the story stemming from her manipulating her friends and family?
OoooooK


Vision doesnt have genitalia, I doubt forreal spreading his nonexistent seed is a big priority to him. He's a machine who miiight be a lil more durable than humans so his time table wouldnt even be the same. He was alive for how many minutes before Wanda snatched him up. Wanda has had a healthy number of romanticships. Buuut How many organic chicks has Vision dated since then? Why isnt he cruising the Wiccan Bars tryna magick up the kids he is striving to create. The more I think about it It seems like Wanda is manipulating him. Which is just another thing to add to all the fvcked up stuff Wanda does.

Yeah yeaaaars ago. not that it negates her being a minority but for example before the retcon I wouldn't say she was being treated as not human and instead a mutant menace.


Yeah dude Its been retconned sooo now they do.





No Im saying that hamfist racial discrimination as big part of her narrative is a choice. But We know for a fact before the retcon she was more accepted than 99% of other mutants and hardly felt any of the bigotry mutants face

Ehhh I don't think theres a large audience amped to read about Wanda passing the blame to yet ANOTHER person

Sure years ago she was poor, homeless and attacked. But she joined the Avengers and came to America. And while there are struggles for Romani in America (evictions, loss of jobs), it is not the same as in parts of Europe. There are also Romani that have had success in life too.

She doesn't have to be in those parts of Europe, constantly chased from place to place to be Romani.

The better 1:1 comparison is she has it better than other Roma. Because there are Romani that have gotten better lives, but then those that live in places that are still attacked and in constant danger and harassment.

Her and mutants comparison is weird. Because while they are marginalized in books, there's no real life version of them. They are at best an allegory for real life oppressed groups. For anyone that chooses to put themselves in that place.

So the main concern for me is not, she needs to be oppressed often to be Romani. But that no Romani in comics seem to fully represent all Romani. They all represent white-look only partial Romani, mostly all linked to magic (and all live grand lives). Have stories of situations of oppression sure, but the big focus needs to be on cleaning up the harmful stereotypes and use of slurs. The fact that Marvel thought it was a decent idea to have a Roma character commit genocide.

She already has that her ancestors died in the Holocaust, and that the attacks on her family were due to racism (until that gross mini that had Romani attacking Romani).

These problems that exist in comics are across the board and need to be addressed fully. Not just on one character because she's become a pariah and only conveniently after she's been made that. Because tbh, I've been around these forums for a while. And on comics forums since 1995. Wanda being Romani happened in the mid-70s. And the only time people have shown concern for this subject is because they are mad at her. The discussion never sticks to how this is across the board and needs really changed. And for it be changed, there has to be more than Romani calling it out and doing so more often.

[BroHomo]

Sure years ago she was poor, homeless and attacked. But she joined the Avengers and came to America. And while there are struggles for Romani in America (evictions, loss of jobs), it is not the same as in parts of Europe. There are also Romani that have had success in life too.

She doesn't have to be in those parts of Europe, constantly chased from place to place to be Romani.

The better 1:1 comparison is she has it better than other Roma. Because there are Romani that have gotten better lives, but then those that live in places that are still attacked and in constant danger and harassment.

Her and mutants comparison is weird. Because while they are marginalized in books, there's no real life version of them. They are at best an allegory for real life oppressed groups. For anyone that chooses to put themselves in that place.

So the main concern for me is not, she needs to be oppressed often to be Romani. But that no Romani in comics seem to fully represent all Romani. They all represent white-look only partial Romani, mostly all linked to magic (and all live grand lives). Have stories of situations of oppression sure, but the big focus needs to be on cleaning up the harmful stereotypes and use of slurs. The fact that Marvel thought it was a decent idea to have a Roma character commit genocide.

She already has that her ancestors died in the Holocaust, and that the attacks on her family were due to racism (until that gross mini that had Romani attacking Romani).

These problems that exist in comics are across the board and need to be addressed fully. Not just on one character because she's become a pariah and only conveniently after she's been made that. Because tbh, I've been around these forums for a while. And on comics forums since 1995. Wanda being Romani happened in the mid-70s. And the only time people have shown concern for this subject is because they are mad at her. The discussion never sticks to how this is across the board and needs really changed. And for it be changed, there has to be more than Romani calling it out and doing so more often.

Ahhhh okay okay it gets annoying when the few minority characters are then later whitewashed either visually or narrative-wise

[Glio]

My opinion before Empyre X-Men was already "No, it doesn't make sense to judge her anymore."

But after this, I reaffirm myself. Nothing of value would be gained from a trial and it is clear that she is punishing herself enough. There is no justice left to do, only revenge and getting into unnecessary conflict with the Avengers.