Should Wanda Maximoff (Scarlet Witch stand trial for House of M ?

[Zelena]

Too bad, we don't have a glaring Logan, on this thread, saying:
"It's complicated, X-fans."


Claremont was a big fan of redemption arcs and reconciliation and, I'm a big fan of them too.
He wasn't the one for advocating holding grudges forever. It's probably a matter of author but, still, Marvel hasn't a lot of responsible attitude for nursing this abscess for too long.

Are there any other comics arguments that have gone on for as long as this one? Maybe Batman in battle boards? I think everything in this thread has been said before.

Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again. André Gide.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

Are there any other comics arguments that have gone on for as long as this one? Maybe Batman in battle boards? I think everything in this thread has been said before.

I think the newest (or the one I‘ve seen presented the least) argument was the one pointing out the hypocrisy of the X-Men defending Jean/Phoenix from the Shi’ar for her crimes, but it’s not OK for the Avengers to defend Wanda.

It really just all does boil down to the most Basic-Bekky-my-favorite-team-is-the-best arguments, dashed with a little misogyny.

[Lucyinthesky]

I think both teams share the same hypocrisy when it´s about Wanda for the Avengers and Jean for the X-men, the Avengers certainly were not as understanding of the Phoenix 5 despite their state being in part a result from Iron Man´s failed strategy same with the X-men on children´s crusade even if I think Heinberg, while being a good writer, made them a little OC to give a little more sympathy to Wanda, the X-men are usually not so unreasonable they will not use an opportunity to end decimation and Wolverine is not so bloodthristy most of the time.

The fact of the matter is that the avengers will defend wanda to the end because she´s one of them, just as the X-men would defend Jean because she´s one of them, still this doesn´t erase their responsibility for their actions, I think that´s a whole other argument.

It´s true Wanda´s actions were made as a result of a mandate from the editorial and Bendis strategy to make the Avengers be the center stage team for the MU but that´s outside story, inside story there has not been yet a resolution for Wanda´s story with HoM and I think that if both Wanda and the X-men want to advance on their storylines they need to tackle this issue to get over it, maybe that´s what Hickman is getting at bringing decimation at the forefront again, to give this story some closure.

[CoCoBandz]

The only person Hope even trusted in AvX was Wanda

That's AvX we're talking about if she were silly enough to attack Krakoa.

Hope would indeed put her on her ass again.

I think both teams are share the same hypocrisy when it´s about Wanda for the Avengers and Jean for the X-men, the Avengers certainly were not as understanding of the Phoenix 5 despite their state being in part a result from Iron Man´s failed strategy same with the X-men on children´s crusade even if I think Heinberg, while being a good writer, made them a little OC to give a little more sympathy to Wanda, the X-men are usually not so unreasonable they will not use an opportunity to end decimation and Wolverine is not so bloodthristy most of the time.

The fact of the matter is that the avengers will defend wanda to the end because she´s one of them, just as the X-men would defend Jean because she´s one of them, still this doesn´t erase their responsibility for their actions, I think that´s a whole other argument.

It´s true Wanda´s actions were made as a result of a mandate from the editorial and Bendis strategy to make the Avengers be the center stage team for the MU but that´s outside story, inside story there has not been yet a resolution for Wanda´s story with HoM and I think that if both Wanda and the X-men want to advance on their storylines they need to tackle this issue to get over it, maybe that´s what Hickman is getting at bringing decimation at the forefront again, to give this story some closure.

You're right it doesnt erase their responsibility. They both eventually had to face consequences.

Jean - Put on trial and ended up dead, her family ended up dead, and she was kidnapped to be put on trial for a second time as a teenager . Even through time foolery she couldnt escape the consequnces of her actions.

Wanda - Was ignored by her friends for a lil bit? Maybe?

[Steel Inquisitor]

You're right it doesnt erase their responsibility. They both eventually had to face consequences.

Jean - Put on trial and ended up dead, her family ended up dead, and she was kidnapped to be put on trial for a second time as a teenager . Even through time foolery she couldnt escape the consequnces of her actions.

Wanda - Was ignored by her friends for a lil bit? Maybe?

Rogue tried to sabotage Wanda being welcome back by her friends in the Avengers. Every time she tried to offer a hand to the X-men they spat in her face. She's been in emotional hell trying to recover from what she did, just like Jean.

Disappeared from comics for years after M-Day.

You want to put Wanda on trial, fine, but blame Marvel for not doing that. Wanda has no control over that, that's the jurisdiction of the writers and editors she's just a picture on a page.

[Cruelrain]

I think here we go again to the same debate ksjsks

[Lucyinthesky]

That's AvX we're talking about if she were silly enough to attack Krakoa.

Hope would indeed put her on her ass again.



You're right it doesnt erase their responsibility. They both eventually had to face consequences.

Jean - Put on trial and ended up dead, her family ended up dead, and she was kidnapped to be put on trial for a second time as a teenager . Even through time foolery she couldnt escape the consequnces of her actions.

Wanda - Was ignored by her friends for a lil bit? Maybe?

This is why I think her story needs closure, part of the reason Wanda wasn´t punished the way Jean was it´s because the X-men are more compasionate and reasonable than the Shiar Empire.

After years of the same arguments it´s hard to give this situation a closure that will satisfy both parties, after all while Wanda, inside story, was not punished much, outside it she was banned from any stories for 7 years which of course didn´t help her character much and marvel messing up her redemption arc by putting the guilt on Doom didn´t help either. Given this my guess is that the X-men and Wanda relationship will ressemble Rogue´s and Ms Marvel´s dynamic in the near future, if there´s a need they will interact or work together but without forgetting decimation but who knows, maybe Hickman has some ideas to solve this particular story.

[Veitha]

Rogue tried to sabotage Wanda being welcome back by her friends in the Avengers. Every time she tried to offer a hand to the X-men they spat in her face. She's been in emotional hell trying to recover from what she did, just like Jean.

Disappeared from comics for years after M-Day.

You want to put Wanda on trial, fine, but blame Marvel for not doing that. Wanda has no control over that, that's the jurisdiction of the writers and editors she's just a picture on a page.

Oh please, she caused death and mayhem and we're supposed to feel bad because Rogue and the X-Men were harsh towards her?

The Avengers never had a problem with Wanda.

A lot of comments keep making comparisons to the X-Men but Jean and the P5 were A) victims of the circumstances and didn't seek any power for selfish reasons that later led to disaster B) punished for their actions or had a great deal of suffering come from it (I'm talking about the Death Commandos, not just someone talking bad about them). Wanda got hugs and a bad attitude from the deal.

[GenericUsername]

I think the newest (or the one I‘ve seen presented the least) argument was the one pointing out the hypocrisy of the X-Men defending Jean/Phoenix from the Shi’ar for her crimes, but it’s not OK for the Avengers to defend Wanda.

It really just all does boil down to the most Basic-Bekky-my-favorite-team-is-the-best arguments, dashed with a little misogyny.

Hypocrisy was covered before in discussions. Because the hero acting like a villain has been a thing for a while now.

I just don't see any sense in it. It's a fictional story that Marvel messed up, not giving it a satisfying end, closure or redemption for anyone. It's been 15 years. Nothing anyone wants is gonna happen.

It was an event like all events. A throwaway story. It's purpose was to make money. And it did. It proved that polarizing readers is better than a well thought out, good story. It was the fast food of comics.

It's taken way too seriously. When it wasn't good enough or real enough to justify it.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Oh please, she caused death and mayhem and we're supposed to feel bad because Rogue and the X-Men were harsh towards her?

You're supposed to feel bad about someone who was pushed to her mental and emotional limit and did something she deeply regrets, yeah. That's what compassion for the vulnerable is about. This is like a rite of passage for X-men. When you found out what Rogue did to Carol Danvers that she deserves to be punished for eternity? That's why she a great foil for Wanda in Uncanny Avengers, they both have that in common. Archangel, Wolverine, Jean Grey, Colossus, Gambit, Xavier, Beast have done things that they deeply regret, and Beast is currently doing his finest impression of an amoral CIA spook in X-Force. We'll see whether he regrets his decisions later.

The Avengers never had a problem with Wanda.

This all goes back to them having problems with Scarlet Witch, which started with Byrne. Read Avengers: Diasssembled, also written by Bendis (who is informed by Byrne's Avengers rather than Busiek's). She-Hulk and Carol Danvers hated her over what she did and as these stories go she wasn't consciously evil she just had a mental breakdown and bad writing to make excuses because they're out of character for Wanda. You need to read Avengers, you don't know what her relationship with them is like.

A lot of comments keep making comparisons to the X-Men but Jean and the P5 were A) victims of the circumstances and didn't seek any power for selfish reasons that later led to disaster B) punished for their actions or had a great deal of suffering come from it (I'm talking about the Death Commandos, not just someone talking bad about them). Wanda got hugs and a bad attitude from the deal.

When have Magik and Emma Frost been punished for their actions? Both never lost their status with the X-men and Magik has been promoted in their ranks once she got her act together. Scott got punished but he remained a lead role in X-men and regained everything, he's not thinking every day of what he did in the P5. That's over for him, not so for Wanda. That defined her ever since.

That the P5 didn't originally want their power shouldn't be an excuse for their actions, while Wanda did sought out the Life Force she was also a victim just like they were. Same symptoms, where it differs is that Wanda lives every day in remorse and society and out of universe fans define her as "bad" while those very same people worship the ground the P5 walk on. Cosmic power overwhelmed both parties but only one is wondered a victim and the other a two dimensional villain.

Look upward, death came for Wanda and she perished. No Death commandos are required.

This idea that every person on Earth, including her closet friends, should shun her for eternity is baffling and contradicts what the X-men do with their own when they fall. You want them to open a hand to their greatest enemies who have caused them more grief than Wanda ever did but want Wanda to suffer without limit. It's hypocritical to the extreme.



This is an excuse to punish an idea of Wanda, not Wanda herself. The attempts to reveal her real character as a hero and that her friends still love and respect her are seen as "attacks." Perhaps this is a holdover from the controversial X-men vs Avengers battles, and Wanda is just a proxy to hate on.

[Veitha]

They shouldn't shun her for eternity nor make her suffer without limits (I've never said that), they should just judge her for what she did at least once. The X-Men being angry at her is not a punishment, it's a reaction to what she did and she showed that she didn't really care in Uncanny Avengers (where she didn't come off very vulnerable lol). And the mutants were depicted as the bad guys in Children Crusade to make her look like the victim, even though she caused genocide with her actions.

Again you're trying to make it seem like Rogue killing her was punishment for M'Day while it clearly was not. And current Wanda doesn't even remember that.

Emma went to jail and Emma/Magik were forced to be on the run and were ostracized and hated by the X-Men and treated like criminals by the Avengers. Again, Wanda faced nothing and her teammates adored her. All she faced were some rough words from Rogue that we're now trying to make it seem like it's such a big deal. Double standard again.

[JasmineW]

If Rogue had done that to a mutant, then of course we would treat her the same. But she didn't, she did it to Carol Danvers - an Avenger! They are THE VILLAINS. We think of Rogue as a hero for storming Avengers Mansion and beating the crap out of them all.

Honestly, Rogue deserves some kind of mutant medal for her Avengers work. She's the only one who gutted Wanda like a fish.

[Veitha]

Whew

[Alan2099]

If Rogue had done that to a mutant, then of course we would treat her the same. But she didn't, she did it to Carol Danvers - an Avenger! They are THE VILLAINS. We think of Rogue as a hero for storming Avengers Mansion and beating the crap out of them all.

Honestly, Rogue deserves some kind of mutant medal for her Avengers work. She's the only one who gutted Wanda like a fish.

Don't use the word "we". You're not the Queen of England and you're not Venom.
You've got past irrational to just pure crazy.

The Avengers are earth's Mightiest heroes. Not villains. The have a long history of saving the entire world. Including mutants. Sometimes from problems CAUSED by mutants. Sometimes with mutants on the team.

While the X-men and Avengers have clashed a few times over the years, for the MAJORITY of their existence the team teams have served alongside each other on good terms. Don't try to paint somebody as the badguy just because there was one story you didn't like.

[JasmineW]

The X-Men are earth's mightiest heroes, I've never read any story where they've saved anything, only where they've caused destruction of mayhem or tried to beat down mutants.
Horrible, horrible characters. WE wouldn't care if they disappeared from the MU completely.