Should Wanda Maximoff (Scarlet Witch stand trial for House of M ?

[Veitha]

Context, this is post-Schism. The X-men were divided and many of them supported doing things like they were the Authority rather than Marvel super-heroes. That kind of thing is going to get criticised in-universe. She did accept the responsibility, the X-men won't have it. Cyclops got out and was back to getting everything back in his life a few years later. He wasn't exiled for years out of comics and everyone's got amnesia about his controversial stint in Utopia, and he's been fine accepting Emma back from when she was Norman Osborn's lapdog while he hunted the Avengers in Dark X-men.

Considering Xavier's dream about assimilation, Wanda was a high profile example of a mutant that could live with humans in peace, and of course Rogue herself was doing this in Uncanny Avengers. Beast is another regular Avenger, is any X-men giving him grief about it? Sunspot formed his own Avengers and took over AIM in the process, which was controversial - because of AIM being a former terrorist organisation not because he was a mutant. Where are the speeches about them not caring about mutant kind?



Which she's tried to atone for and every time she tries the X-men throw it back in her face. The suffering angle loses potency when they're housing people like Sinister, if the really were true half the Quiet Council wouldn't be on it. Where is Rogue's condemnation for Cyclops when he shut Wanda down from fixing M-day? She was on the front lines in Children's Crusade.

Accepting the responsibility like she did is just a bunch of words. I can kill someone and say I accept the responsibility, that won't mean a thing if I'm free to do whatever I want anyway. Scott went to jail, he was ostracized by the X-men and had to be on the run, she did not and she was even giving speeches as if she didn't cause much of the pain that turned the X-Men into martyrs.

Schism has nothing to do with the speech. She was talking about the X-Men not following Xavier's dream anymore. If we want to contextualize her words, she sounds even more dumb because she's saying this after Decimation and Genosha. The X-Men had to face 2 genocide attempts, Purifiers, Nimrods, students being blown up in front of them, students and teammates being tortured in the worst possible ways, Bastion's attack on Utopia and the death and mauling of their teammates. She was shopping at local markets at the same time this was happening.

I've already explained a thousand times why Scott's situation is different from Wanda's and the X-Men have condemned Scott for what he did, even though he had no control over the situation. All the while (I'll say it again) Wanda was free, didn't stand trial and her teammates were accepting of her. Scott's teammates hated him for the whole duration of Bendis run, so don't make it look like Scott was all good after AvX, he went through what Wanda didn't even if she deserved it.

Sinister has nothing to do with Wanda and it doesn't really make the suffering any less. He's not an X-man, he's currently used for his skill as a genetist because they're not building a superhero team but a nation and he's there also to amen for what Wanda herself did.

[Ferro]

Wanda as a mutant is the definition of a class traitor

[Steel Inquisitor]

Accepting the responsibility like she did is just a bunch of words. I can kill someone and say I accept the responsibility, that won't mean a thing if I'm free to do whatever I want anyway. Scott went to jail, he was ostracized by the X-men and had to be on the run, she did not and she was even giving speeches as if she didn't cause much of the pain that turned the X-Men into martyrs.

How does someone accept responsibility without apologising? Words are meaningless when the person you're asking for forgiveness doesn't want to listen. Wanda's tried to fix this over the years to no avail, and one time doing it she got murdered in the attempt. The Avengers and X-men tried to kill her over House of M. Since HoM Wolverine's been wanting to murder her on sight, only later on did he finally stop doing this. Scott spent time in prison and got out to his friends and family and nowadays he's at his peak. The PF hardly defined his life like M-Day has for Wanda, and he conquered the world with that.

Schism has nothing to do with the speech. She was talking about the X-Men not following Xavier's dream anymore. If we want to contextualize her words, she sounds even more dumb because she's saying this after Decimation and Genosha.

Why is that wrong? Those incidents don't excuse the fact that how the X-men reacted weren't entirely right. Your argument with Utopia and Decimation is flawed. It relies on the fact that they were doing things under immense pressure which forced their hand to protect themselves - which the events leading to M-day are identical to with Wanda herself. Only Wanda regrets her actions, the X-men are divided on that matter - they had their own "civil war" when Cyclops turned into a revolutionary.

The X-Men had to face 2 genocide attempts, Purifiers, Nimrods, students being blown up in front of them, students and teammates being tortured in the worst possible ways, Bastion's attack on Utopia and the death and mauling of their teammates.

You say that as though before M-day they haven't dealt with those type of problems before, those are things which were a regular Tuesday for the X-men. Don't forget before Krakoa half the villains they were fighting doing things like that were mutants themselves. Bastian's been making trouble for the X-men since Operation: Zero Tolerance. He successful locked up key figures like Cyclops and Xavier, separated them from their technology and Cyclops only survived that ordeal when Cecelia Reyes had to improvise getting a bomb of his chest. The X-men have been on the run from people trying to kill them since the 60's.

She was shopping at local markets at the same time this was happening.

How many times have the X-men done nothing while the Avengers saved the world? This is super-hero comics, not real life. How many Avengers storylines have they been missing in action while people died or the world was under siege? This applies to numerous super-heroes and teams in Marvel.

I've already explained a thousand times why Scott's situation is different from Wanda's and the X-Men have condemned Scott for what he did, even though he had no control over the situation. All the while (I'll say it again) Wanda was free, didn't stand trial and her teammates were accepting of her. Scott's teammates hated him for the whole duration of Bendis run, so don't make it look like Scott was all good after AvX, he went through what Wanda didn't even if she deserved it.

Poorly. You still refuse to admit Wanda wasn't in her right mind when she did that yet let Scott slide for circumstances which are very close to it. Blame editorial for not letting that happen, that's outside her control. She had as much agency as Scott did getting out of being shown in prison after the PF incident. None. Wanda's been hated by her team mates before, like Avengers Disassembled and by the same writer who wrote her incorrectly. She-Hulk and Carol hated her for a while there. There are whole scenes where the Avengers talk behind her back against her. This isn't about what's "deserved" since this isn't real life, she has no control over what happens in her comics anymore than Scott does. They're puppets on a string. Except Scott did get it good eventually, he's not in a bad spot now is he? I haven't seen him this happy since the 90's. When he disappears from comics for years and fans loathe the idea of him then he'll be in Wanda's position. Oh, and an Avenger kills him over a misunderstanding because they don't trust him.

Sinister has nothing to do with Wanda and it doesn't really make the suffering any less. He's not an X-man, he's currently used for his skill as a genetist because they're not building a superhero team but a nation and he's there also to amen for what Wanda herself did.

Sinister is a great example of the hypocrisy over blaming Wanda and letting him slide. We know what's he's done yet there are no threes calling for his head. over genocide or how he tried to massacre every X-man to get to the first mutant born after M-Day. It's not about reducing the suffering wanda caused, it's about exposing hypocrisy and attaining justice where the X-men looked the other way the it suited them. Nation's don't have to have someone like Sinister leading it and putting him in the Quiet Council does that - when America did Operation: Paperclip, and this was very controversial for obvious reasons they didn't let the Nazis run for president. They X-men sold their soul to the devil with that deal and that's going to be cashed in eventually.

[Veitha]

The issue is that she just apologised and it ended there. She didn't face any consequence for her actions if not Rogue or the X-Men being mad at her. The Avengers were angry, but never betrayed Wanda like some X-men did Scott after the P5 incident (and the Avengers, especially She-Hulk, did have plenty of reasons to be mad at her, since it was her fault for their team being dismantled and even worse stuff happening, and still she wa).

No one denied her mental issues, but she seeked that power and Cyclops did not, it was Stark that forced it onto him. And at the end of the day, Cyclops paid for his actions and she didn't. It all comes back to this.

Cyclops didn't go back to his family. Read the comics. He was hated almost until Hickman. Post AvX the X-men didn't want him anymore if not the most loyals to him, like Magik and Emma. Post Secret Wars he was mutant Hitler. He didn't have it easy at all. Wanda, in the meantime, was living her dream life in East Europe and when she came back she was welcomed back into the Avengers.

Your argument about Scott being happy now falls flat. It's been what, 8 years since AvX? And he paid for his "sins", if we can call having a shard of the Phoenix being forced inside you by someone else a sin. And it also falls flat because you don't want Wanda to be punished at all but you want Scott to suffer forever because of AvX?

Wanda has been doing nothing for mutants for years, it's not just single stances. And mutant-hating crimes are different than facing supervillains or defending the Earth. The market thing was also a joke to point out that she (I know, I'm repetitive) she got out of HoM w/o paying any consequences, she could just roam free and do whatever she wanted.

The part about the pre HoM problems being the same as the post HoM porblems is just not true and it sounds like you didn't read comics post-Decimation. Their entire species was at 198. The X-Men had never faced an army of Nimrods, Bastion had never enclosed the X-Men in a force field after having killed all their teleporters and leaving them to die with the Nimrods in there. They never had newborn babies being burned alive to prevent mutant births. Show me a scan of Claremont having a bus full of students exploding in front of Xavier's and then we can talk. The stakes were so much higher after Decimation and because of Wanda. You downplaying it and calling it another day at the office doesn't change facts. Post Decimation the X-Men had 10+ years of dark stories because of that situation. It wasn't just a wounded teammate, it was death, traumas and losing limbs. I could make a full list for each of the main X-men about how traumatized they got after Decimation. They were under immense pressure, and they drifted from Xavier's dream because it had become impraticable. Let's thank Wanda and Cassandra Nova for that.


So you're saying that resurrecting the dead and giving the victims of Wanda's Spell their powers back is not worth it because it makes them look like hypocrites? Well ok.

[Alan2099]

Cyclops not wanting the power is a technicality at best. He wanted somebody else to have the power. A person he "trained" and would do whatever he wanted them to do.

Then there's the matter of him attacking allies so he could get ALL of the power.

And if you want to complain about Wanda causing mutant deaths, how about the time Xavier unleashed his mental powers created Onslaught and killed ALL the Avengers.

[Zelena]

Wanda as a mutant is the definition of a class traitor

So how do you call a human that helps mutants?

[FIGHT]

And if you want to complain about Wanda causing mutant deaths, how about the time Xavier unleashed his mental powers created Onslaught and killed ALL the Avengers.

That was great writing. They all died and the X-men went home to have dinner.

[Voices From the Eyrie]

Cyclops not wanting the power is a technicality at best. He wanted somebody else to have the power. A person he "trained" and would do whatever he wanted them to do.

Then there's the matter of him attacking allies so he could get ALL of the power.

And if you want to complain about Wanda causing mutant deaths, how about the time Xavier unleashed his mental powers created Onslaught and killed ALL the Avengers.

And all because he wanted to bone his student but couldn't... Onslaught existed because Charles is a pedophile.

[Ferro]

That was great writing. They all died and the X-men went home to have dinner.

God what a moment, I miss it dearly they have to do it again sometime

[Cruelrain]

That was great writing. They all died and the X-men went home to have dinner.

Maybe that explains why the Avengers never worry about mutant rights...

And all because he wanted to bone his student but couldn't... Onslaught existed because Charles is a pedophile.

Jean sweetie

[CoCoBandz]

Cyclops not wanting the power is a technicality at best. He wanted somebody else to have the power. A person he "trained" and would do whatever he wanted them to do.

Then there's the matter of him attacking allies so he could get ALL of the power.

And if you want to complain about Wanda causing mutant deaths, how about the time Xavier unleashed his mental powers created Onslaught and killed ALL the Avengers.

LMAO the Phoenix was coming to posses Hope regardless of what Scott or anybody else may or may not have wanted. What Scott had was faith that the arruval of the Phoenix meant the restoration of the X-Gene.

Scott was just training her for inevitability.

[gurkle]

UA really made her an unlikable little shite.

No argument there. Though the speeches in the first issue weren't as bad as her long monologue in #9 defending Havok's M-word speech. That was her just being an author mouthpiece to try and defend the writer from his (completely justified) backlash.

I get that Wanda was written unlikable in "Uncanny Avengers" because the whole point of that book, at least early on, was to pit X-Men and Avengers fans against each other instead of showing members of the two teams working together. Still, it's not the way to handle a character in her first ongoing (and still her last ongoing team book to this day) after coming back from years of limbo.

Still, Cyclops and Wolverine were written incredibly unlikable in "Children's Crusade" and I don't hold that against them. Characters shouldn't be defined by the worst writing they got.

Wanda as a mutant is the definition of a class traitor

I mean that would have made Uncanny Avengers much more interesting if they'd focused on that. Wanda is the most high-profile mutant who never joined a mutant team. Is this because she doesn't care about her people or because she thinks she can do more good representing them on the Avengers? There's evidence in the comics both ways, but it was never examined in Uncanny Avengers because 1. They focused on her stupid bitchfest with Rogue 2. By the time that was over they were under orders to make her not a mutant any more.

The only comic I ever saw that looked into this was one of the cartoony Jean/Wanda stories from "X-Men First Class," where Scott and Jean see Wanda on TV being interviewed as a member of the Avengers, and they notice that the media considers Wanda a great hero with "natural powers" where every other mutant is covered as some sort of freak for the exact same reason. That comic was so much better than the regular X-Books in so many ways.

[Ferro]

No argument there. Though the speeches in the first issue weren't as bad as her long monologue in #9 defending Havok's M-word speech. That was her just being an author mouthpiece to try and defend the writer from his (completely justified) backlash.

I get that Wanda was written unlikable in "Uncanny Avengers" because the whole point of that book, at least early on, was to pit X-Men and Avengers fans against each other instead of showing members of the two teams working together. Still, it's not the way to handle a character in her first ongoing (and still her last ongoing team book to this day) after coming back from years of limbo.

Still, Cyclops and Wolverine were written incredibly unlikable in "Children's Crusade" and I don't hold that against them. Characters shouldn't be defined by the worst writing they got.



I mean that would have made Uncanny Avengers much more interesting if they'd focused on that. Wanda is the most high-profile mutant who never joined a mutant team. Is this because she doesn't care about her people or because she thinks she can do more good representing them on the Avengers? There's evidence in the comics both ways, but it was never examined in Uncanny Avengers because 1. They focused on her stupid bitchfest with Rogue 2. By the time that was over they were under orders to make her not a mutant any more.

The only comic I ever saw that looked into this was one of the cartoony Jean/Wanda stories from "X-Men First Class," where Scott and Jean see Wanda on TV being interviewed as a member of the Avengers, and they notice that the media considers Wanda a great hero with "natural powers" where every other mutant is covered as some sort of freak for the exact same reason. That comic was so much better than the regular X-Books in so many ways.

its 90 % of the writting we have to analyze about wanda and mutant issues, what do you want us to do? Pretend its not canon when its all there is when it comes to this particular conection

[gurkle]

its 90 % of the writting we have to analyze about wanda and mutant issues, what do you want us to do? Pretend its not canon when its all there is when it comes to this particular conection

I think the evidence in the comics for "class traitor" is much stronger than the evidence for House of M being in-character. I'll never accept that she is a bad person or a mass murderer but sure, it makes sense to interpret her as someone who doesn't want to be in an all-mutant group after the Brotherhood broke up.

Originally Quicksilver was the one who wanted to join a flatscan team rather than the X-Men, and Wanda went along with him, but it seems clear as time goes on that he is much more comfortable on mutant teams than Wanda is. Why she isn't comfortable on mutant teams is one of many questions the writers never really addressed.

[BroHomo]

I think the evidence in the comics for "class traitor" is much stronger than the evidence for House of M being in-character. I'll never accept that she is a bad person or a mass murderer but sure, it makes sense to interpret her as someone who doesn't want to be in an all-mutant group after the Brotherhood broke up.

Originally Quicksilver was the one who wanted to join a flatscan team rather than the X-Men, and Wanda went along with him, but it seems clear as time goes on that he is much more comfortable on mutant teams than Wanda is. Why she isn't comfortable on mutant teams is one of many questions the writers never really addressed.

She doesn't love herself