WW cited in The Flash 750

[Digifiend]

Issue 600:


Issue 700:

[Castling]

I so don't like it. To me it's just trying to hard to make her the most special by making her first and she wasn't. I don't like care for retcons to add specialness. I think it makes it seem like TPTB didn't think the character had enough going for them all along. And yes, it does feel "stolen" to me. And I still thinking tying her to back WWII is a long-term detriment to the character. But, obviously DC doesn't care what I want. And things I don't like have been phenomenally popular in past, so perhaps this one will be, too.

Well, in the places where these characters get the most eyes, i.e. movies/TV, Diana actually was one of the first superheroes to hit the scene.
Hell, even during the New 52, in the JSA book, they were called "Wonders" as opposed to superheroes, because Wonder Woman was the first public hero.
On the the Young Justice show, Diana's heroic career goes back to WWII. Finally, in the DCEU Diana is, in fact, Earth's first superhero, showing up nearly a century before Superman and Batman.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, in the places where these characters get the most eyes, i.e. movies/TV, Diana actually was one of the first superheroes to hit the scene.
Hell, even during the New 52, in the JSA book, they were called "Wonders" as opposed to superheroes, because Wonder Woman was the first public hero.
On the the Young Justice show, Diana's heroic career goes back to WWII. Finally, in the DCEU Diana is, in fact, Earth's first superhero, showing up nearly a century before Superman and Batman.

Everything you cited is fairly recent.

And spill over from other media to create new readers rarely happens, so it doesn't seem worth getting rid of Year One and disrupting her supporting cast yet again for this.

[Frontier]

I think having Diana inspire the JSA is a way of fixing a major political correctness problem. In the original golden age stories, Diana was basically the team's secretary! They didn't treat her like the heroine she is.

I mean, modern depictions of the JSA's founding have kind of already fixed that issue.

[SiegePerilous02]

Did Diana being their secretary even last for very long?

I know that was part of her early appearances, but I thought she became a more active participant by the time Black Canary joined at least. And I don't think it was an issue anymore by the time we got to some pre-COIE Bronze Age Earth-2 stories.

[Ascended]

Having not yet read either Wonder Woman or Flash 750 I can't really speak to specifics.

But.

I'm not sure why this was done. Like, okay, she's immortal so there's that, but what is there for her to gain here? Clark being the first hero (again) since 2011 hasn't made any damn difference in anything. Him not being the first hero in post-Crisis didn't really make much of a difference either. Diana already gets all the lip service DC can throw at her but rarely give her the big moments or feats to back it up so.....why bother doing this?

The only thing that comes to mind is this way they can put her in a JSA book and a JLA book and use her as the bridge between two different eras. Which will come in super handy in maybe one story.

I'd much, much rather have Superman be the first public hero. Because he actually was. But if it has to be someone else, Diana's the only real option worth considering.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Wonder Woman is probably my favorite DC character (well, if you ignore a few highly idiosyncratic opinions I have of some highly minor characters), and I certainly wish that DC - and, to some extent, comic-book readers (although I don't see much point in blaming customers) - would treat her better. I would love to see her with better stories, a more solid supporting cast, more than one Wonder-related book a month, and a backstory that wasn't treated like Silly Putty. (Also, her not being the daughter of Zeus.)

But I don't see how this helps her at all. It feels artificial and contrived, and I just don't think it's going to inspire or attract new readers. "Wow, Wonder Woman was the first superhero of semi-modern era! She served with the Justice Society of America, and even Superman and Batman didn't do that! At least, this time around!" Is that really the kind of thing that matters to most readers? It doesn't to me.

After Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was decided that Superman and Batman started their superhero careers at about the same time, and Wonder Woman started hers about five years later. I don't think that was a good thing for her. It set her aside from the other two icons of DC Comics; you could write stories about Superman and Batman encountering each other when they were both new to the game (and when the "JLA" age of heroes was just starting out), but Wonder Woman couldn't be involved the same way. Some would say that that made her special, but to me it seemed to make her secondary in a narrative sense. (And what it did to Donna Troy, and Donna's relationship to Diana, is a sad story.)

And now they're making it that she started off her superhero career around WW II, and bounced around for decades during what seem like interstitial years, and then finally Superman and Batman come along, which is when the "JLA" era starts. Once again, she's set apart from Superman and Batman. Now, that could make her special - or it can make her secondary, like an add-on. Two great heroes, Superman and Batman, start up their careers and kick off the New Age of Heroes - and, oh yeah, there's this Wonder Woman who's been around for a long time.

It might work great. (And certainly there's signs that they'll use it to improve Donna's situation. That's great, but it could have been done without this big a change.) But I think it's a solution to the wrong problem.

[Digifiend]

After Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was decided that Superman and Batman started their superhero careers at about the same time, and Wonder Woman started hers about five years later. I don't think that was a good thing for her. It set her aside from the other two icons of DC Comics; you could write stories about Superman and Batman encountering each other when they were both new to the game (and when the "JLA" age of heroes was just starting out), but Wonder Woman couldn't be involved the same way. Some would say that that made her special, but to me it seemed to make her secondary in a narrative sense. (And what it did to Donna Troy, and Donna's relationship to Diana, is a sad story.)

It totally trashed at least a year of New Teen Titans stories, including the origins of both Donna Troy and Lilith. In fact Diana getting entirely rebooted meant Donna was now around before her (her whole history with the Teen Titans remained intact with the exception of anything involving Paradise Island). That never made sense. Unfortunately, one of the two alternatives would've actually damaged NTT even more - Marv Wolfman created Kole specifically because of an editorial mandate that someone had to die in the Crisis and he didn't want to lose anyone from his established cast. Instead, he could've had Donna killed, and then erased like Supergirl was - which would've necessitated removing Terry Long from the cast as well. The only plan that wouldn't have hurt NTT (their most popular book at the time) at all would've been Wonder Woman NOT rebooting.

[kjn]

It might work great. (And certainly there's signs that they'll use it to improve Donna's situation. That's great, but it could have been done without this big a change.) But I think it's a solution to the wrong problem.

Yep.

I'm not necessarily against having Diana be the first active hero, but the 5G initiative seems to place putting all the heroes into their slots higher than asking for good or compelling stories about them. And unlike say, Captain America, there is relatively little in Wonder Woman's backstory that ties her to the Second World War.

In any case, 5G seems to have been a management mess for a long while, and while removing DiDio might help DC's creative management in the long term, it won't do much in the short term (meaning at least six months to a year, and possibly longer).

[lotchj]

To me the whole thing seem forced!! I don't get the point!! Is it pressure from special interest groups??? Is Dc comics doing it just to appeal to those groups?? I like WW, but i don't see the need to change Dc history just to make her the first hero!!

[Ascended]

I suspect the reason behind it is nothing more than movie synergy. Diana was active in WWI in a highly successful film, and so in the comics she'll be around for the Golden Age. And they'll likely use her as a bridge between the generations, so expect her to be the one who introduces the JLA to the JSA. Oh, there's also the outside chance that Diana will get a second title, if 5G does books spread across the new timeline; a G1 book set in the past (Sensation?) and then a second book set in the present. But that's making several assumptions about how 5G will play out.

This *might* get DC about five seconds of positive press from those special interest groups, if they even notice, but unless this new position as the first hero comes with a whole lot of extra effort nobody is going to care, and I suspect it'll be such a non-issue even us fans won't remember it unless someone brings it up.

But I like what Dr. Bifrost said; this is a solution to the wrong problem.

Still, if it can't be Clark who's first I'm glad it's Diana. It probably won't add anything to her or improve the way DC treats her, but she's one of the few characters who can fill this position and not have it be *completely* insulting.

[Artemisfanboy]

I'm ok with Diana having her Golden Age history restored, and I'm willing to give her being the the first superhero in continuity a chance. Here's way I see it.

Pros
-Fills the hole(real or perceived) in the JSA's membership they experienced initially Post Crisis from losing Golden Age Wonder Woman. For whatever reason neither Miss America or Fury seemed to work, but Byrne's Hippolyta did(albeit wonkily with the time travel angle). Diana being immortal and active since WWII allows the JSA to have their Wonder Woman, while also avoiding the "Legacy hero" aspect the people who're about Byrne's retcons with Hippolyta bring up.

-Allows Donna Troy to have her origin finally fixed restored. Moving back Diana's origin back also gives her more than enough time to have rescued Donna as a baby and bring her back Paradise Island to be adopted as her sister. Now this is dependent on them actually doing this, but if they do, it's a big point in favor of moving Diana's origin back in time before the other "current" generation.

There are other options to patching the JSA membership and continuity, or getting Donna on the Island, But embracing Diana being immortal and setting her origin back far enough to cover both works for me.

Cons(and some rebuttals)
-The loss of the angle of telling stories with Diana being both young and experiencing the modern day world as an outsider for the first time. But I also have to question just how long of a sustainable element this is? The longer you're telling stories with Diana in the modern world the more she'll become accustomed to it. And that's before you take into consideration you're most likely telling stories five,ten or even fifteen years after "Year One" in so rest of the Dc universe can be established.

-What this could potentially do to her supporting cast members, specifically Steve Trevor and Etta Candy. I think golden age Etta and modern Etta are distinct enough you could retcon the later into being the granddaughter or great granddaughter of the former. Steve is trickier to resolve. I'm waiting to see what angle they take.

-Frustration with Year One and the rest of Rucka's run being retconned so soon. I fully understand these feelings, But I do not share them personally as there are elements with Rucka's "Lies/Truth" of his run that bother me which I will explain. Particularly his inclusion of flashbacks to the post crisis continuity, only to dismiss that as equally false as the New 52 universe with his "Diana has NEVER been home" retcon. Effectively he rebooted her to scratch instead of restoring any continuity. If things have changed and Doomsday Clock/5G has made it so Diana has been able to return to Themyscira intermittently and more of her past continuity could have happened, I can't help but to find myself for it.

A side note.
- Its arguable that the perception of Diana starting her career in the past during the world wars has been established in outside media with the general audience. The Lynda Carter show, The current movies(WWI instead II), Young Justice. IIRC I think even Superfriends mentioned her origin happening during WWII in the Secret Origins episode. On the other hand we have the DCAU, the 09 animated film, and the DCAMU having her origin in modern day. So I guess you could say it's a 50/50 split. I don't see a clear preference from the mainstream audience for one take over the other, and a case for acceptance for either.

So In summary I'm weighing the potential long term benefits to the JSA and Donna Troy, and Diana having more of her history back in continuity, against the short term storytelling befits of Diana beginning her career recently, and the big question of what role Steve plays in her life and when. Obviously there's a lot of room to bungle things in execution, but I'm willing to give it a chance.

[Frontier]

Wonder Woman is probably my favorite DC character (well, if you ignore a few highly idiosyncratic opinions I have of some highly minor characters), and I certainly wish that DC - and, to some extent, comic-book readers (although I don't see much point in blaming customers) - would treat her better. I would love to see her with better stories, a more solid supporting cast, more than one Wonder-related book a month, and a backstory that wasn't treated like Silly Putty. (Also, her not being the daughter of Zeus.)

But I don't see how this helps her at all. It feels artificial and contrived, and I just don't think it's going to inspire or attract new readers. "Wow, Wonder Woman was the first superhero of semi-modern era! She served with the Justice Society of America, and even Superman and Batman didn't do that! At least, this time around!" Is that really the kind of thing that matters to most readers? It doesn't to me.

After Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was decided that Superman and Batman started their superhero careers at about the same time, and Wonder Woman started hers about five years later. I don't think that was a good thing for her. It set her aside from the other two icons of DC Comics; you could write stories about Superman and Batman encountering each other when they were both new to the game (and when the "JLA" age of heroes was just starting out), but Wonder Woman couldn't be involved the same way. Some would say that that made her special, but to me it seemed to make her secondary in a narrative sense. (And what it did to Donna Troy, and Donna's relationship to Diana, is a sad story.)

And now they're making it that she started off her superhero career around WW II, and bounced around for decades during what seem like interstitial years, and then finally Superman and Batman come along, which is when the "JLA" era starts. Once again, she's set apart from Superman and Batman. Now, that could make her special - or it can make her secondary, like an add-on. Two great heroes, Superman and Batman, start up their careers and kick off the New Age of Heroes - and, oh yeah, there's this Wonder Woman who's been around for a long time.

It might work great. (And certainly there's signs that they'll use it to improve Donna's situation. That's great, but it could have been done without this big a change.) But I think it's a solution to the wrong problem.

I guess now we'll get yet another "first time the Trinity met."

[Digifiend]

Don't the movies have the exact same problem with Steve? He was in the first movie set in World War I, but he's also in the second film, which is set in 1984. And he's not suddenly 70 years older! How will they explain that? And the comics might as well go for synergy on that one.

[Vordan]

Don't the movies have the exact same problem with Steve? He was in the first movie set in World War I, but he's also in the second film, which is set in 1984. And he's not suddenly 70 years older! How will they explain that? And the comics might as well go for synergy on that one.

The script has leaked apparently so we know why Steve is back. I’ll simply say that comic Steve would basically not be able to be Diana’s modern day love interest if they’re copying from the movies. To elaborate more would be spoilerish.

The only way they could use Steve is if he gets resurrected or they pull a Bucky Barnes with him, which could be interesting. But the problem is what does Steve do then? His whole relationship with Diana is he’s the one who helps her live in Man’s World. If he was born and “died” in WWII he’s not going to be able to do that. That’s not to say inverting the dynamic couldn’t be interesting, that’s what WW1984 seems to be doing after all.