Good stories ruined by later stories

[Güicho]

.... is the equivalent of the Rise of Skywalker in relation to Return of the Jedi

For me the Last Jedi was the one that "ruined"* Return of the Jedi (ESB and ANH), pretty much just completely shat over and betrayed all of Luke's narrative, characterization, growth, and story arc. So much that it actually has effected my desire to view, and the way I see the OT.

The one that somewhat comes close at DC to tainting a whole past generation of story and characters, was Identity Crisis, but that one has become pretty easy to ignore.


*Just so this doesn't become a derail, this isn't about Rey, Fin, Poe and new characters, I absolutely love them, this is about how Luke was (mis)handled.

None, you can't ruin a good story with another later story. You might wish the later story didn't exist, but the original will always stand just fine on its own as a good read.

I would have thought so too. And intellectually I can easily separate the two, yet there is still a deep visceral emotional impact, that does effect how I view the previous stories.

[Vakanai]

I would have thought so too. And intellectually I can easily separate the two, yet there is still a deep visceral emotional impact, that does effect how I view the previous stories.

Perhaps your mileage may vary. Anything I hate that much I've learned to ignore and treat like an out of continuity Elseworld. I haven't watched Last Jedi because of the reviews, but this is the approach I take with the Alien prequels. I still enjoy the first two movies just fine. I refuse to let new **** taint classic loves. But to each their own.

[Lee]

Huh? Really...

So if you go out on a date with a chick... or your girlfriend and after the date you ask "how was it?" And she said "mediocre..."

You could go home and feel good about yourself? You would sleep well?

Or how bout you have sex. And after the sex you ask "how was that!"

And she says "oh you were really average babe... you know you were mediocre!"

You would feel okay about this?

Average is a "nice" way of saying bad...

His 10 years of producing according to the fans was average...

Sorry that means bad...

Bad means bad. Average means average. Mediocre and average are synonymous.

[Vakanai]

Bad means bad. Average means average. Mediocre and average are synonymous.

Technically, but usually people say average more like "it's nothing special, but it's alright. It'll kill time." But they tend to use mediocre as a more direct insult meaning "it's kinda bad. It'll kill brain cells."
While neither is complimentary, I'd rather be called average than mediocre. Even if they're the same thing technically, the way people use them is often different enough to matter.


Mind you this is just an off topic thought on language.

[godisawesome]

The separation most comic story sequels that *would* have this effect usually end up with, where years have passed with sometimes dozens of stories in the time between releases, kind of makes it easier for me to just not have my previous enjoyment ruined.

For this scenario to happen for me, they’d probably have to be in the same run... at which point I probably wouldn’t like the first story anymore either because I would see it as part of the same story.

Comics and their sometimes fluid continuity play a part in this - I got into comics in a way (Internet) where I could understand that, say, Batman’s first years had been recast into a new mold by Year One, Jason Todd had been given a new origin different from what his first one was, and that people were studiously ignoring Year 2... but that Basil Karlo’s first Clayface appearance back in the Golden Age was still kind of in continuity, and that the Flash’s stories from the Silver Age basically still happened.

I just Pretty early came to understand that a good way to look at it was “Unless we replace it with something better, it ain’t going to stick.”

And to be honest, the kind of “fan revanchism” that creators are sometimes accused of when Silver Age characters seem to return for no good reason or that anti-New 52 comic fans sometimes display?

It wouldn’t really exist of stories or ideas that people liked were being ruined by new sequels and ideas.

[Güicho]

Perhaps your mileage may vary. Anything I hate that much I've learned to ignore and treat like an out of continuity Elseworld. I haven't watched Last Jedi because of the reviews, but this is the approach I take with the Alien prequels. I still enjoy the first two movies just fine. I refuse to let new **** taint classic loves. But to each their own.

Like I said I can intellectually separate the two and tell myself one doesn't effect the other. As I can with the Alien franchise if I wanted it's quite easy. A huge difference with the Alien prequels and SW sequels, is that there isn't one of the lead actor and characters from the original acting completley out of character, going against everything he learned and became, and betraying (his entire character arc) from the originals.
Seeing the character (and actor who portrayed him) do that is what makes it transcend into a visceral experience.
The Alien prequels have little to no effect like that on the lead human character arcs from Alien(s), it doesn't betray change or deny their defining story arcs and growth as characters.

[Vakanai]

Like I said I can intellectually separate the two and tell myself one doesn't effect the other. As I can with the Alien franchise if I wanted it's quite easy. A huge difference with the Alien prequels and SW sequels, is that there isn't one of the lead actor and characters from the original acting completley out of character, betraying and going against everything he learned and became (his entire character arc) from the originals.
That is what makes it transcend into a visceral experience.
The Alien prequels have little to no effect on the lead human character arcs in Alien(s) it doesn't betray change or deny their defining story arcs and growth as characters.

Perhaps. I'd still ignore the new movie if I could if it played out like that, but there's a difference between intellect and emotions. Still, I'd wait till my anger/whatever from the new film has dissipated, pretend it got retconned, and marathon the OG trilogy again. That's just me.

[Lee Stone]

I try to 'Read, Accept or Reject'.

It's much easier to do that at, say, Dynamite, where stories aren't necessarily tied to each other.
So you can choose for each story whether it's 'canon' or not for you.

Love Sherlock Holmes but think Sherlock Holmes fighting Dr. Doom is a bad idea?
Just ignore it.

It's just harder to do at DC (or Marvel), because even if you choose to ignore something (like Countdown to Infinite Crisis, for example), it still gets reflected in other books. Especially if it involved a death.

[Jim Kelly]

Supposedly, IDENTITY CRISIS ties in with "Operation: Jail the Justice League," JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 61 (March 1968), as well as other pre-Crisis stories. I wouldn't know, not having read more than a few pages of I.D. (and you can't make me). But given the Meltzer story came out in 2004, I don't think it can be mistaken for a pre-Crisis story--so it really doesn't matter that much to me what it retconned. Those pre-C stories still exist as they were originally.

[Menacer]

Bad means bad. Average means average. Mediocre and average are synonymous.

That's not how language works.

If you spent 10 years at a job. And you retired after 10 years. And your staff told you, you were a mediocre boss...

Youd lose sleep over that...

This poll is in the context of his performance.

Imo the last 10 years was awesome...

And no saying it was average or mediocre dont bring positive feelings to this co producer...

Therefore they give bad feelings.

Therefore the mediocre or average are bad...

Same reason cool can apply to the temperature as it can to how cool batman is.

Language is more complicated

You are over simplifying the words...

The point is comic book fans here are far to criticizing of his performance... so much amazing material was produced in his time.

So agree to disagree

[Lee]

That's not how language works.

If you spent 10 years at a job. And you retired after 10 years. And your staff told you, you were a mediocre boss...

Youd lose sleep over that...

This poll is in the context of his performance.

Imo the last 10 years was awesome...

And no saying it was average or mediocre dont bring positive feelings to this co producer...

Therefore they give bad feelings.

Therefore the mediocre or average are bad...

Same reason cool can apply to the temperature as it can to how cool batman is.

Language is more complicated

You are over simplifying the words...

The point is comic book fans here are far to criticizing of his performance... so much amazing material was produced in his time.

So agree to disagree

Options on a poll should be clear and precise. If the option in the middle is "average" then I will assume that by "average" they mean "average". The English language needs a word to encapsulate the concept of average. If we live in a world where the concept of "average" exists but we have no word for it, then language has failed.

[Tzigone]

That's not how language works.

If you spent 10 years at a job. And you retired after 10 years. And your staff told you, you were a mediocre boss...

Youd lose sleep over that...

This poll is in the context of his performance.

Imo the last 10 years was awesome...

And no saying it was average or mediocre dont bring positive feelings to this co producer...

Therefore they give bad feelings.

Therefore the mediocre or average are bad...

Same reason cool can apply to the temperature as it can to how cool batman is.

Language is more complicated

You are over simplifying the words...

The point is comic book fans here are far to criticizing of his performance... so much amazing material was produced in his time.

So agree to disagree

I agree that mediocre and average are fairly synonymous. It's what the word means (basically). Language does change and many do use it to mean "bad" but many still use it to mean "middling" or "less than good, but not bad" I use it mean middling and wouldn't lose any more sleep over "mediocre" than "average."

Also, not real fond of Didio's time, and dislike most of what he's claimed credit for (pretty much all the events) that I've heard, but know he claims crap that isn't actually his fault. But if he claims it and we have no way of knowing otherwise, it sits on his doorstep in the fan consciousness.

[Flash Gordon]

I don't think it breaks the character, especially when her characterization was as on-point as it was in that series, but it does certainly change some dynamics.

It makes her 1,000,000% less interesting. The beauty of Elegy was the symbology of the Batman picking this woman up off the ground at her lowest point and pushing her to keep going- which is about as Batman as you can get. The Bat is all about carrying on, enduring, being better than you thought you ever could be. It's still HER story though, just with this wild BAT symbol as her sigil to keep on keeping.

Her being Bruce Wayne's relation just kind of undermines that whole theme, and makes it more of a legacy/destiny thing which I hate.