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  1. #136
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    I don't know about that. Based on this, you basically just have to have their powerset make sense. You can make any random person a villain for somebody, but, as you're saying, it defeats the point if they're no threat to the hero.

  2. #137

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    I think, overall DC does better with Rogues Galleries. I can't think of a DC character who has a rogues gallery as bad as Iron Mans. Almost every team and character have their own unique enemies and if you look deep enough, you would find that even Black Canary and Zatanna have their own specific rogues. Donna Troy has never held a book but even she has her own enemies: Dark Angel and the Titans of Myth (Hyperion and Thia).

    I would say the one Rogues Gallery that has impressed me the least are the JSA's. I think when facing individual JSA members or on their own, Rose/Thorn, Solomon Grundy, Icicile, Tigress, Wizard, all work really well but compared to the sheer might of the JSA, the power of their rogues always felt lacking. I think Humanite and Johnny Sorrow/Empire of Tears managed to sufficiently challenge them but I feel like they need more. Mordru managed to be a good JSA villain for a while but he is primarily a Legion villain. Black Adam is more of an anti-hero than straight up villain these days. Compare the JSA Rogues to the JLA one: Starro, White Martians, Legion of Doom, Maggedon, the General, Shaggy Man, Queen of Fables, Prometheus, Despero or the New Teen Titan Rogues: the Gordanians, Deathstroke, Brother Blood, the Cithadel, the Titans of Myth, Trigon, etc.

  3. #138
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I feel like it's a double standard. Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc. don't really have better rogues; it's just that they themselves are more popular characters than most others, so their supporting characters get more focus.

    I've never really been impressed with Batman's rogues, but Batman himself has always been an interesting character.
    Then explain Wonderwoman's lack of popular rogues.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    I think the kinds of villains that make up your 4-9 depend on your hero. I don't think Superman and Batman would have the same types of villains for example. And even the same general types of villains would have completely different manifestations in a Superman book then in a Batman book.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Ollie has an extensive gallery. The problem is most are B-level or C-level. So many of them have huge potential though and that's the most frustrating thing about it. There is a gold mine waiting to be unearthed with villains like Big Game, Printer's Devil, Steel Claw, Bad Penny, Sling Shot, Death Dealer and Vengeance.

    But all he has that is notable is Merlyn, Count Vertigo, Cupid, Brick, China White and, at a stretch, Deathstroke.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    You have to consider that some heroes are simply easier to make villains for then others. I’d argue this is why Batman has such a big rogue’s gallery. Essentially all you need to make a good Batman villain is a regular human with a weird, interesting or twisted personality quirk. I’d argue that a villain seems lame when they are perceived as weak and ineffectual when compared to their hero/heroine. Just putting a weird quirk on a regular human doesn’t work with characters like Superman or Wonderwoman because their is a very definite chance of the villain being perceived as underpowered and weak compared to a god-like being.
    Agreed.

  5. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Then explain Wonderwoman's lack of popular rogues.
    -Writers don't build up on previous writers work. Often outright ignores or do their own (usually weaker) takes. Hence the same character in the same continuity could have two different personalities and power levels (see Barbara Minerva and Angle Man).

    -WW Rogues have poor showing in titles outside of the WW comics. Again, see Cheetah and Angle Man. Or they're barely featured at all and when they do....well see, point one. Circe in JLD was one of the few times this trend was bucked.

    -WW hasn't gotten a lot of love when it comes to adaptations like other heroes have. Adaptations play a huge role in cherry picking the best aspects of a character to put on screen.

    It's only recently there have attempts to rehabilitate and build up her rogues. However when you get down to it, most of her rouges are solid; Ares, Cheetah, Circe, Giganta, Silver Swan and then you have Dr Poison, Zara, Blue Snowman, Decay, Saturnette, the Duke of Deception, etc. It's just that most people don't know them or they don't get a lot of love.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    -Writers don't build up on previous writers work. Often outright ignores or do their own (usually weaker) takes. Hence the same character in the same continuity could have two different personalities and power levels (see Barbara Minerva and Angle Man).

    -WW Rogues have poor showing in titles outside of the WW comics. Again, see Cheetah and Angle Man. Or they're barely featured at all and when they do....well see, point one. Circe in JLD was one of the few times this trend was bucked.

    -WW hasn't gotten a lot of love when it comes to adaptations like other heroes have. Adaptations play a huge role in cherry picking the best aspects of a character to put on screen.

    It's only recently there have attempts to rehabilitate and build up her rogues. However when you get down to it, most of her rouges are solid; Ares, Cheetah, Circe, Giganta, Silver Swan and then you have Dr Poison, Zara, Blue Snowman, Decay, Saturnette, the Duke of Deception, etc. It's just that most people don't know them or they don't get a lot of love.
    Agreed!

    And it's not just WW's villains that are mistreated like this!

  7. #142
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Omen could have a great rogues gallery, but I bet there’s some people that haven’t even heard of her.

  8. #143
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    Atom is the answer. WW, Hawkman, Aquaman, and yes even Green Arrow and Firestorm all have great rogues. Zatanna too.

    Atom has Dwarfstar, Plant Master and Chronos. All the others literally suck and even those I listed aren’t bad ass enough. Chronos is no Kang the Conqueror. Plant Master is inferior to his student Poison Ivy (yes I know Woodrue was used in Swamp Thing.)
    Dwarfstar is no worse off than Atomica, who has the Crime Sybdicate to back her up.

  9. #144
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Even Katana at least has Sickle.

  10. #145
    Fantastic Member Nero's Avatar
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    I have to go with Nightwing and that's coming from someone who is a big fan of his.

    For one, there's never been any clear distinction on who's even Nightwing's archenemy. I've often heard some people make the case for it being Deathstroke but the truth is, I don't see Slade being any more of an arch nemesis to Nightwing as he is to Green Arrow. Then there's Blockbuster but I often have a hard time buying him as anything more than just a copy of Marvel's Kingpin let alone Nightwing's greatest foe. After that. it's pretty bleak. It seems like none of Dixon's villains stuck around (like Torque, Double Dare, Stallion, Brutale, Lady Vic) as they've fallen off the radar. Then again the same can be said for Saiko or Raptor or even the Judge.

    More often than not, DC has the original Nightwing villains come across like one hit wonders as opposed to having them featured more prominently.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nero View Post
    For one, there's never been any clear distinction on who's even Nightwing's archenemy. I've often heard some people make the case for it being Deathstroke but the truth is, I don't see Slade being any more of an arch nemesis to Nightwing as he is to Green Arrow. Then there's Blockbuster but I often have a hard time buying him as anything more than just a copy of Marvel's Kingpin let alone Nightwing's greatest foe.
    It is Blockbuster (as under whelming as he might be), Deathstroke was more Titans Villain than Dick personal nemesis, ha has been a villain for a lot of other characters since than, and he has been a successful solo character in his own right for years at this point. And there has never really been a really good Nightwing vs. Deathstroke story outside of Titans.

    Deathstroke being Dick personal archnemesis is at best wishfull thinking imo.

    That kind of only leaves Blockbuster, with maybe William Cobb or Raptor with the potential to take over, if there would put some effort into building them up.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Ollie has an extensive gallery. The problem is most are B-level or C-level. So many of them have huge potential though and that's the most frustrating thing about it. There is a gold mine waiting to be unearthed with villains like Big Game, Printer's Devil, Steel Claw, Bad Penny, Sling Shot, Death Dealer and Vengeance.

    But all he has that is notable is Merlyn, Count Vertigo, Cupid, Brick, China White and, at a stretch, Deathstroke.
    See, I've read Green Arrow since his mini series way back when, and I don't remember ANY of those guys you listed!!
    Merlyn seems to be a nemesis as he's an archer. Pretty thin.
    Count Vertigo, yup. There's one. I didn't like Cupid had one storyline in the GABC title and to my memory hasn't been seen again.
    Brick was a nice addition and could be great. China White was in a mini series. Did she ever make an appearance in the monthly?

    While I loved Grell's Green Arrow, he did go out of his way to make sure it wasn't a super-hero book.
    No costumes, and no big nemesis either. He fought drug runners, murderers, rapists, dodgy Government spooks etc. and while it made perfect sense and helped portray Ollie as the everyman hero it did mean we missed all the big villain stuff other titles use every month.
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  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    See, I've read Green Arrow since his mini series way back when, and I don't remember ANY of those guys you listed!!
    Merlyn seems to be a nemesis as he's an archer. Pretty thin.
    Count Vertigo, yup. There's one. I didn't like Cupid had one storyline in the GABC title and to my memory hasn't been seen again.
    Brick was a nice addition and could be great. China White was in a mini series. Did she ever make an appearance in the monthly?

    While I loved Grell's Green Arrow, he did go out of his way to make sure it wasn't a super-hero book.
    No costumes, and no big nemesis either. He fought drug runners, murderers, rapists, dodgy Government spooks etc. and while it made perfect sense and helped portray Ollie as the everyman hero it did mean we missed all the big villain stuff other titles use every month.
    Most of the villains listed are from the back-up stories they had running in Detective, Action and a few issues of World's Finest. Most of them usually popped up for a story and then faded into obscurity. The only ones that had multiple were Printer's Devil (there were two of them), Bad Penny, Pinball Wizard and that's it. Sling Shot was only in one story. Likewise Vengeance. There were a ton of others I could have listed like Detonator, O-zone, Hi-tek and Machiavelli. Big Game was a retroactive villain who was added when his son appeared in GABC.

    Merlyn has sort of become the nemesis over time due to the fact he is an archer.

    Count Vertigo was considered Ollie's major nemesis for years (as well Dinah's) and I think he is the perfect foil because he comes from a wealthy family who were royals until they were kicked out in a coup d'etat. So you have the parallel of both who came from wealth, lost it and ended up on different paths.

    Cupid had a few stories upon her debut. But her comic origin is too convoluted. Arrow actually reworked her origin into something more believable when they adapted her for the show.

    Brick is a major crime boss. But he only works when you have Ollie in Star City (which is another sore point with me as that city should be as defined as Gotham or Metropolis).

    China White did appear in rebirth. She was the head of the China White Triad.

    Grell's run is great in many respects. But i agree that it really didn't do much in the way of villains and that long spell meant it wasn't until Chuck Dixon that we started getting some villains for him. Out of the writers who have worked on Ollie the last 20 years, Judd Winick did the most villain wise.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nero View Post
    I have to go with Nightwing and that's coming from someone who is a big fan of his.

    For one, there's never been any clear distinction on who's even Nightwing's archenemy. I've often heard some people make the case for it being Deathstroke but the truth is, I don't see Slade being any more of an arch nemesis to Nightwing as he is to Green Arrow. Then there's Blockbuster but I often have a hard time buying him as anything more than just a copy of Marvel's Kingpin let alone Nightwing's greatest foe. After that. it's pretty bleak. It seems like none of Dixon's villains stuck around (like Torque, Double Dare, Stallion, Brutale, Lady Vic) as they've fallen off the radar. Then again the same can be said for Saiko or Raptor or even the Judge.

    More often than not, DC has the original Nightwing villains come across like one hit wonders as opposed to having them featured more prominently.
    Here’s his top 20, in order
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  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nero View Post
    I have to go with Nightwing and that's coming from someone who is a big fan of his.

    For one, there's never been any clear distinction on who's even Nightwing's archenemy. I've often heard some people make the case for it being Deathstroke but the truth is, I don't see Slade being any more of an arch nemesis to Nightwing as he is to Green Arrow. Then there's Blockbuster but I often have a hard time buying him as anything more than just a copy of Marvel's Kingpin let alone Nightwing's greatest foe. After that. it's pretty bleak. It seems like none of Dixon's villains stuck around (like Torque, Double Dare, Stallion, Brutale, Lady Vic) as they've fallen off the radar. Then again the same can be said for Saiko or Raptor or even the Judge.

    More often than not, DC has the original Nightwing villains come across like one hit wonders as opposed to having them featured more prominently.
    I think that most fans like to pretend that Blüdhaven never existed (even though I actually preferred him there).

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