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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Never been a big fan of the Flash's vilains.
    You probably know this but your in the minority on this one. Most people think the Flash has the third best gallery in comes just behind Batman and Spider-Man.

    Between the rogue’s themself( a novel concept of a group of villains that actually work well together)
    Gorilla Grodd: one of the original “so weird it’s cool”villains.
    And all the evil speedsters Flash has one of the better collections of villains.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    I would say Aquaman's villains are also underdeveloped.

    The Superman/Aquaman Hour of Adventure is a Filmation animated series that aired on CBS from 1967 to 1968. In some form or another, these Aquaman cartoons were seen for decades. They were better representation for Aquaman than Superfriends...and introduced several Aquaman foes directly into the living rooms of many thousands.

    Those Aquaman foes were:

    • Black Manta
    • Vassa, Queen Of The Mermen
    • The Torpedo Man, an armored being
    • The Brain, a mutant scientist,
    • the Fisherman - A sea pirate
    • The Magneto & The Claw, - The Torpedo Man teams up with two other armored beings
    • The Sea Sorcerer - an evil warlock
    • Captain Sly - A sky pirate


    Did TPTB at DC do anything to develop these foes for Aquaman? Not as far as I know.
    I’m a big Aquaman fan and a lot of those villains sound underwhelming to put politely. Way to many armored villains that seem to be running around from the sound of it and those names.. “The sea sorcerer” sounds limiting


    Honestly a lot of heroes could use their villains getting reimagined. Probably and unpopular opinion but I liked what the start of the New52 did with The Flash Rogues “The Rogues”.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Aquaman and has the weakest rogue's gallery,
    Wonderwoman has the most underdeveloped.

    Aquaman's has very few good villains and the ones he does have seem to be under powered for a character of his power level and royal influence.
    I could agree with this. I always hate the idea of Black Manta in a diving suit being a physical challenge for Aquaman someone shown to casually lift up cruise ships and push down on oceanic trenches. It doesn’t make sense for them to be interacting in fisticuffs unless you present the idea Aquaman is holding back and then when you look at their history that doesn’t really make sense at all either.

    I like the idea of Black Manta being this prep like character who doesn’t try to engage Aquaman directly their New52 backstory is perfect for it as well. Black Manta blames Aquaman for the death of his father. Instead of targeting Aquaman, target those who are close to Arthur to get under his skin and beat him in a way Manta could be capable of doing so. I like the idea of Manta in an Ironman esque suit as well so they could always go that direction. Have some ancient Atlantean artifact power the suit or something. Atlantis has been stated to have unlimited energy I believe.

    I loved the mention of The Fisherman being some nightmarish lore esque villain. He could honestly end up being Aquaman’s version of the Doctor Strange villain Nightmare. Have him reappear with the Night Gods.

    Scavenger would of been awesome to put in that heavy mechanized suit Black Manta recently appeared in, seems like it would of been more his style at the very least.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post

    a lot of Wonderwoman's villains are actually pretty cool conceptually but are underdeveloped. Cheetah is essentially a modern day take on all those tragic mythological figures that are done in by their own hubris and turned into a monster. Circe is a classic witch/sorceress villain to Diana's sword and sandal type heroine. Dr. Cyber is essentially a tech wizard, so you have super tech vs magic conflict with Diana. Ares is Diana's big bad the living embodiment of human carnage. I've always felt that Giganta was a cool visual held back by weak origin stories and lack luster motivations. She should be the queen of all giants. I'm not usually the one who thinks all of Diana's villains should be mythological but in Giganta's case I feel tying her into the lore of mythic giants would really give her over all menace a boost. I feel her current science base origins really don't do much for her, and a regular person who grows really isn't much of a match for a demigoddess like Wonderwoman.
    Wasn’t Poseidon the father of the Giants or Grandfather in Greco-Roman myth. The cyclops atleast? Why not make Giganta into one of them?

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewFiftyForum View Post
    That's the point though. While probably pretty much any character COULD be great if some extraordinary idea was applied to them, it doesn't change their current state. It doesn't matter to the current status of Wonder Woman's rouges gallery that a lot of her villains could be good, if they currently aren't or have never been. Having said that, of the ones you've mentioned I think Gentleman Ghost, Count Vertigo and Merlyn (or is there a different villain named Merlin as well?) are all OK-ish to decent villains.


    Well then, under those criteria, I'd have to give the award to Green Arrow. Count Vertigo and Merlyn are cool but most of Green Arrow's other villains are one-offs or under-developed. That being said, I like some of those villains(i.e. Slingshot) as well but I think in terms of general acceptance, Green Arrow's rogues are a far cry from any other DC hero's.
    Currently Reading:Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Legion of Super Heroes, Shazam, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFacedKid View Post
    I’m a big Aquaman fan and a lot of those villains sound underwhelming to put politely. Way to many armored villains that seem to be running around from the sound of it and those names.. “The sea sorcerer” sounds limiting


    Honestly a lot of heroes could use their villains getting reimagined. Probably and unpopular opinion but I liked what the start of the New52 did with The Flash Rogues “The Rogues”.
    To put it politely, they were underwhelming. Remember this cartoon was from the late 1960s.

    That's not the point. My point is: they could have been developed over the last 50 years!

    Were they? Nope.

    Good job as usual, DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Well then, under those criteria, I'd have to give the award to Green Arrow. Count Vertigo and Merlyn are cool but most of Green Arrow's other villains are one-offs or under-developed. That being said, I like some of those villains(i.e. Slingshot) as well but I think in terms of general acceptance, Green Arrow's rogues are a far cry from any other DC hero's.
    Agreed.

    Many of GA's foes had themes of weapons or colors. I wish they had been given some attention. I really wish Bulls-Eye the clown and other golden-age foes of GA had been developed over the decades.
    Last edited by scary harpy; 03-25-2020 at 03:18 PM.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFacedKid View Post
    I could agree with this. I always hate the idea of Black Manta in a diving suit being a physical challenge for Aquaman someone shown to casually lift up cruise ships and push down on oceanic trenches. It doesn’t make sense for them to be interacting in fisticuffs unless you present the idea Aquaman is holding back and then when you look at their history that doesn’t really make sense at all either.

    I like the idea of Black Manta being this prep like character who doesn’t try to engage Aquaman directly their New52 backstory is perfect for it as well. Black Manta blames Aquaman for the death of his father.
    I remember Manta always being a prep/sneak attack type of character. Even back in the 60s he would rarely take Aquaman head on because it won't be much of a fight. He would use his manta submarine and his host of weapons to attack Aquaman. Only exception was the 90s when he turned into a literal manta and was strong enough.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Well then, under those criteria, I'd have to give the award to Green Arrow. Count Vertigo and Merlyn are cool but most of Green Arrow's other villains are one-offs or under-developed. That being said, I like some of those villains(i.e. Slingshot) as well but I think in terms of general acceptance, Green Arrow's rogues are a far cry from any other DC hero's.
    I think Green Arrow may have had more street-level, non-rogue villains than most. Plenty of heroes have had them - sometimes even with no rogues appearing for several years - but I think him moreso. I expect there are various reasons for this from not having had his own comic for a long time to the specific type of commentary O'Neil wanted to do in the '70s when he was sort of re-invented, to the gritty "realistic" late 80s-era that made it the norm for him. But also maybe writers not really being able to come up with a well-suited enemy to a non-superpowered archer. Dinah also hasn't had a wealth of rogues. I don't really care if Ollie has many, but I know the villains make the comics for some people (and I did quite like some of Barry's in the 60s). I'd rather like Dinah and Barbara to have more (but not evil Oracle).

  9. #69
    Incredible Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    I guess I'm in the minority because I've liked Green Arrow's Rogues Gallery over the years for the most part. Count Vertigo has grown quite a bit over the years to the point where he's not just a Green Arrow only villain anymore (he's more of an international DCU villain now which is fine since Ollie himself became more of an international DCU hero when he started helping Interpol and the CIA every once in a blue moon) and Merlyn is a good opposite number type villain who has become more capable and deadly when done right.

    Green Arrow also has Shado (one of the greatest female assassins in the DCU and Mother of Red Arrow/Emiko Queen who is Ollie's half sister) China White (who is one of the world's most dangerous druglords) Brick (Star City's biggest Mob Boss) Camorouge (an expert international thief and assassin who can turn invisible via his stolen military stealth suit) and Constantine Drakon (one of the world's greatest assassins and Martial Artists).

    Also, like most of the heroes in the shared DCU now, Ollie (and Dinah by extension) has shared villains like Lady Shiva, Deathstroke, Ra's Al Gaul and the League of Assassins (thanks to Merlyn, Shado, Shiva, Drakon, etc, either being current or former members of the League of Assassins), Clock King (who was a Green Arrow villain before he ever crossed paths with Batman), and Doctor Light (who started out as a Justice League and Teen Titans villain before he started focusing more directly on Ollie)

    That's the one good thing about a shared universe, I guess. If you're a street level hero in a shared universe with other street level heroes, you're more than likely to have run-in's with another street level hero's villain at some point and vice versa for street level villains as well.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    I remember Manta always being a prep/sneak attack type of character. Even back in the 60s he would rarely take Aquaman head on because it won't be much of a fight. He would use his manta submarine and his host of weapons to attack Aquaman. Only exception was the 90s when he turned into a literal manta and was strong enough.
    Which makes a helluva lot more sense. His biggest story involved Plotting Aquaman and Aqualad against each other. Thinking about it before Johns I don’t think I remember any instances where Manta was a physical challenge for Aquaman I think it’s writers following what he established

    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    To put it politely, they were underwhelming. Remember this cartoon was from the late 1960s.

    That's not the point. My point is: they could have been developed over the last 50 years!

    Were they? Nope.

    Good job as usual, DC.
    .
    They didn’t really capitalize after his movie either which was the first movie under the DCEU/WODC to make over a billion. If not first DC movie?

    We’ve yet to get anything out of it other then stuff suggested they’d be doing.

    I’m still waiting on Aquaman Earth One and Rise of the Seven Seas. I’m expecting the cartoon announced to go the route of those two promised books

  11. #71
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFacedKid View Post
    The idea of The Fisherman being something lovecraftian horror like sounds awesome. Id love to see him
    Introduced as something like a horror story people of the sea tell their children about.

    I’d also love to see Qwsp again Aquaman’s version of Myx and Batmite often causing problems for the hero. I’m pretty sure the last time they interacted was in Morrisons JL book which is a shame. Be cool to see the 5th dimension explored in the Aquaman book
    I'd love Qwsp back too! Not as a villain though.

    The Fisherman would work really well as a creeping horror. Something Old World and deadly, from the vast reaches of reality. It's a parasite that attaches to individuals, that weird helmet thing.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    I guess I'm in the minority because I've liked Green Arrow's Rogues Gallery over the years for the most part. Count Vertigo has grown quite a bit over the years to the point where he's not just a Green Arrow only villain anymore (he's more of an international DCU villain now which is fine since Ollie himself became more of an international DCU hero when he started helping Interpol and the CIA every once in a blue moon) and Merlyn is a good opposite number type villain who has become more capable and deadly when done right.

    Green Arrow also has Shado (one of the greatest female assassins in the DCU and Mother of Red Arrow/Emiko Queen who is Ollie's half sister) China White (who is one of the world's most dangerous druglords) Brick (Star City's biggest Mob Boss) Camorouge (an expert international thief and assassin who can turn invisible via his stolen military stealth suit) and Constantine Drakon (one of the world's greatest assassins and Martial Artists).

    Also, like most of the heroes in the shared DCU now, Ollie (and Dinah by extension) has shared villains like Lady Shiva, Deathstroke, Ra's Al Gaul and the League of Assassins (thanks to Merlyn, Shado, Shiva, Drakon, etc, either being current or former members of the League of Assassins), Clock King (who was a Green Arrow villain before he ever crossed paths with Batman), and Doctor Light (who started out as a Justice League and Teen Titans villain before he started focusing more directly on Ollie)

    That's the one good thing about a shared universe, I guess. If you're a street level hero in a shared universe with other street level heroes, you're more than likely to have run-in's with another street level hero's villain at some point and vice versa for street level villains as well.
    It can be detrimental to a character's individuality and stand alone ability to rely to much on the shared universe concept. The best characters are supplemented by, but aren’t reliant on the shared universe. In fact you can tell a character’s importance in a shared universe by how many elements said character can bring with with it from its own franchise. Superman has Metropolis several major villains Supergirl, the Legion of Superheroes and million other little things that add to the greater DCU. Batman even more so. But then you have other characters like Green Arrow that take more from the universe then they put in. I always say you can measure how developed a franchise is by how deep you can go into its rogue’s gallery before you start needing imports from other franchises.
    Last edited by mathew101281; 03-26-2020 at 09:23 AM.

  13. #73
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    Was The Brain an Aquaman rouge in the comics, or only the 60's cartoon?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamtheday View Post
    Was The Brain an Aquaman rouge in the comics, or only the 60's cartoon?
    Just the cartoon.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    It can be detrimental to a character's individuality and stand alone ability to rely to much on the shared universe concept. The best characters are supplemented by, but aren’t reliant on the shared universe. In fact you can tell a character’s importance in a shared universe by how many elements said character can bring with with it from its own franchise. Superman has Metropolis several major villains Supergirl, the Legion of Superheroes and million other little things that add to the greater DCU. Batman even more so. But then you have other characters like Green Arrow that take more from the universe then they put in. I always say you can measure how developed a franchise is by how deep you can go into its rogue’s gallery before you start needing imports from other franchises.
    Agreed.

    Well said!

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