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  1. #76
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    It can be detrimental to a character's individuality and stand alone ability to rely to much on the shared universe concept. The best characters are supplemented by, but aren’t reliant on the shared universe. In fact you can tell a character’s importance in a shared universe by how many elements said character can bring with with it from its own franchise. Superman has Metropolis several major villains Supergirl, the Legion of Superheroes and million other little things that add to the greater DCU. Batman even more so. But then you have other characters like Green Arrow that take more from the universe then they put in. I always say you can measure how developed a franchise is by how deep you can go into its rogue’s gallery before you start needing imports from other franchises.
    Well technically any villain can become a major threat if the writer is creative enough.

    Wasn't Dr.Light and Royal Flush Gang a pain in the League's ass back in the days?

  2. #77
    Incredible Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    It can be detrimental to a character's individuality and stand alone ability to rely to much on the shared universe concept. The best characters are supplemented by, but arenít reliant on the shared universe. In fact you can tell a characterís importance in a shared universe by how many elements said character can bring with with it from its own franchise. Superman has Metropolis several major villains Supergirl, the Legion of Superheroes and million other little things that add to the greater DCU. Batman even more so. But then you have other characters like Green Arrow that take more from the universe then they put in. I always say you can measure how developed a franchise is by how deep you can go into its rogueís gallery before you start needing imports from other franchises.
    Who said anything about reliance to the shared universe concept? Sure, Green Arrow has some shared villains with some other heroes but he's never been reliant on them. Same thing with Green Lantern/Hal (who has taken on everyone from Zod to Deathstroke) or Batman (who has taken on everyone from the Tattooed-Man to Lobo) or The Question (who has taken on everyone from The MadMen to Lady Shiva who herself was Richard Dragon's former ally turned arch-nemesis turned forbidden love interest in his title long before becoming more of an international DCU villain where she began having anything to do with the likes of Batman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Katana, Ra's Al Gaul, the League of Assassins, The Question, etc)

    All of the above characters have never been reliant on the shared universe concept or being under the same publisher/DC, but they have all benefited from it at times and that was the point I was trying to make with my last thought in my original post.

  3. #78
    Incredible Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Well technically any villain can become a major threat if the writer is creative enough.

    Wasn't Dr.Light and Royal Flush Gang a pain in the League's ass back in the days?
    Exactly. Look at where the likes of the Calculator, Shiva, Count Vertigo, Clock King, Mr. Freeze, Deadshot, Clayface, The Turtle, The Ventriloquist, Lobo, Deathstroke and many more originally all started and where they are now.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    Who said anything about reliance to the shared universe concept? Sure, Green Arrow has some shared villains with some other heroes but he's never been reliant on them. Same thing with Green Lantern/Hal (who has taken on everyone from Zod to Deathstroke) or Batman (who has taken on everyone from the Tattooed-Man to Lobo) or The Question (who has taken on everyone from The MadMen to Lady Shiva who herself was Richard Dragon's former ally turned arch-nemesis turned forbidden love interest in his title long before becoming more of an international DCU villain where she began having anything to do with the likes of Batman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Katana, Ra's Al Gaul, the League of Assassins, The Question, etc)

    All of the above characters have never been reliant on the shared universe concept or being under the same publisher/DC, but they have all benefited from it at times and that was the point I was trying to make with my last thought in my original post.
    You kind of made my point for me. Black Canary, Lady Shiva, the League of Assassins, all these characters were grafted into The Green Arrow franchise after the fact. When you actually start to look for things that are distinctly born from Green Arrow as a franchise, you have characters like count vertigo and Merlyn but it falls off quite quick.

    Any villain be written well but not every villain works for every hero.

  5. #80
    Incredible Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    You kind of made my point for me. Black Canary, Lady Shiva, the League of Assassins, all these characters were grafted into The Green Arrow franchise after the fact. When you actually start to look for things that are distinctly born from Green Arrow as a franchise, you have characters like count vertigo and Merlyn but it falls off quite quick.
    1) You're trying to make a point out of something that I never even said and you're either misunderstanding my original point or possibly you're ignoring my point 2) DC is a "franchise" and the characters that belong to the DC Franchise are strictly their IP's and DC as a Franchise can use their IP's wherever they want and with any other IP's they want (but I wasn't even talking about franchises so I don't know where you're getting that from in concerns to my original post and what I was actually saying) 3) Lots of characters get grafted onto other characters' rogues galleries. Clock King was originally Green Arrow's rogue only but they have still used him as a Batman rogue and a Flash rogue in animation and comics. Lady Shiva was originally Richard Dragon's rogue only but they've still used her as a Batman rogue, Green Arrow rogue, Question rogue, Katana rogue, Black Canary rogue, Suicide Squad rogue, Birds of Prey rogue, Outsiders rogue in animation and in comics. Count Vertigo was originally Green Arrow's rogue only, but he's still been used as a Batman and the Outsiders rogue and a Suicide Squad member and rogue in animation and comics. Deathstroke was originally created as an NTT rogue only, but he's still been used as a Batman rogue, a Green Arrow rogue, a Black Canary rogue, a Suicide Squad rogue, an Outsiders rogue, a Justice League rogue, a Damian Wayne rogue, in both animation and comics. The Brotherhood of Evil were originally created as Doom Patrol rogues only, but they've still been used as NTT rogues, Justice League rogues and even Superman rogues in animation and comics. I could go on and on and on and on and on and on with tons of more examples of characters that have been "grafted" onto other characters' rogues galleries over the years...

    But that still doesn't have anything to do with my original post or point and what I actually said there.

    What I said was, "I like Green Arrow's rogues gallery and think he has some pretty good villains of his own. [Count Vertigo has grown quite a bit over the years to the point where he's not just a Green Arrow only villain anymore (he's more of an international DCU villain now which is fine since Ollie himself became more of an international DCU hero when he started helping Interpol and the CIA every once in a blue moon) and Merlyn is a good opposite number type villain who has become more capable and deadly when done right (especially after Merlyn became a member of the League of Assassins).

    Green Arrow also has Shado (one of the greatest female assassins in the DCU and Mother of Red Arrow/Emiko Queen who is Ollie's half sister) China White (who is one of the world's most dangerous druglords) Brick (Star City's biggest Mob Boss) Camorouge (an expert international thief and assassin who can turn invisible via his stolen military stealth suit) and Constantine Drakon (one of the world's greatest assassins and Martial Artists).

    Also, like most of the heroes in the DCU now, Ollie, and Dinah by extension, have shared villains like Lady Shiva, Deathstroke, Ra's Al Gaul and the League of Assassins (thanks to Merlyn, Shado, Shiva, Drakon, etc, either being current or former members of the League of Assassins), Clock King (who was a Green Arrow villain before he ever crossed paths with Batman and The Flash), and Doctor Light (who started out as a Justice League and Teen Titans villain before he started focusing more directly on Ollie)
    "

    So to sum everything up, I think Ollie's got a pretty good rogues gallery of his own, and I think the DCU has benefited from Ollie sharing HIS rogues like Count Vertigo, Merlyn, Shado, and Clock King just as much as Ollie has benefited from dealing with rogues from the rest of the DCU.

    Any villain be written well but not every villain works for every hero.
    Again, never said they did.
    Last edited by docmidnite; 03-26-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxin45 View Post
    I mean the lamest rogues gallery.
    None of them are really lame, except for the ones that you can't even name a single member for.

  7. #82
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    I think captain atom's rogues are pretty underwhelming.
    Last edited by Toxin45; 04-27-2020 at 05:34 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I would say Ollie as well. But Iíve heard people say that GA doesnít need villains as heís his own worst enemy. Which is kinda why we love him.
    I donít know. That sounds pretty lazy and one of the reasons why Green Arrow doesnít have the strongest rogues gallery. That and writers having MASSIVE egos that only want to use their own toys.
    Imagine being proud to have negative traits. I canít relate.

    DC: Justice League, The Flash, Justice League Dark, Superman, Action Comics, Green Arrow, Justice League Odyssey, The Terrifics, Teen Titans, Titans, Brimstone, Female Furies, Damage, Heroes In Crisis

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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    The Fisherman would work really well as a creeping horror. Something Old World and deadly, from the vast reaches of reality. It's a parasite that attaches to individuals, that weird helmet thing.
    I'd prefer The Fisherman to be an eco-villain, an actual IUU (Illegal, Unreported and Unregulated) Fisherman. Stories with him could tackle topics like drift-net fishing, destruction of coral reefs, shark finning and so on.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxin45 View Post
    I think captain atom's rogues are pretty underwhelming.
    To be honest, I feel the same way.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raijin View Post
    I don’t know. That sounds pretty lazy and one of the reasons why Green Arrow doesn’t have the strongest rogues gallery. That and writers having MASSIVE egos that only want to use their own toys.
    I don't think egos have to with it. Some writers just aren't interested in some characters. In fact, when have any Big 2 writers only used characters they created?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-28-2020 at 01:06 AM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I don't think egos have to with it. Some writers just aren't interested in some characters. In fact, when have any Big 2 writers only used characters they created?
    I think you missed the point.
    Imagine being proud to have negative traits. I canít relate.

    DC: Justice League, The Flash, Justice League Dark, Superman, Action Comics, Green Arrow, Justice League Odyssey, The Terrifics, Teen Titans, Titans, Brimstone, Female Furies, Damage, Heroes In Crisis

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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raijin View Post
    I think you missed the point.
    I got what you meant overall, I was just addressing the "massive egos" part.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-28-2020 at 01:56 AM.

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman; A-list character, but with C-list villains. None of the other major superheroes in her bracket have that same ignominy; Batman and Spider-Man have the best villain rosters of all time and Superman has several household names in his (including one that that became part of the English language).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  15. #90
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Wonder Woman; A-list character, but with C-list villains. None of the other major superheroes in her bracket have that same ignominy; Batman and Spider-Man have the best villain rosters of all time and Superman has several household names in his (including one that that became part of the English language).
    I think it's because all the other A-list characters are men with mostly male villains.

    The Big two do not consistently treat their female characters well, and utilizing and developing a mostly female rogues gallery (who really aren't any sillier than a lot of Batman or Spider-Man's villains) may not be something they are regularly equipped for. Any time we actually get something great for some of WW's villains, it's usually undone or not followed up on.

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