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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Like it or not they do have a natural connection. She snapped his neck which was broadcasted all over the world and ruined her public image for a while. Hell Lord affected WW more than most of her Rogues normally do, how many of them have left as much an impact on her as he did? We sure might not like that DC gave such a big moment to someone who has not historically been a part of her Rogues Gallery but hey, at least he’s not a freaking god. And he does have ties to all the “worlds” WW lives in: The superhero community, the intelligence community, etc. It’s why I’m not as strongly opposed to his inclusion as some others.
    True. But the storyline was mostly published in Superman titles, and Wonder Woman was brought in to save Superman's ass, and then blamed for the way she did it.

    It's simply not a good Wonder Woman story. Maxwell Lord as a Wonder Woman villain is a scab from an aborted story arc that DC can't stop picking at.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    True. But the storyline was mostly published in Superman titles, and Wonder Woman was brought in to save Superman's ass, and then blamed for the way she did it.

    It's simply not a good Wonder Woman story. Maxwell Lord as a Wonder Woman villain is a scab from an aborted story arc that DC can't stop picking at.
    The story was fine. It was how writers misrepresented the incident that was the problem.

  3. #183
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    True. But the storyline was mostly published in Superman titles, and Wonder Woman was brought in to save Superman's ass, and then blamed for the way she did it.

    It's simply not a good Wonder Woman story. Maxwell Lord as a Wonder Woman villain is a scab from an aborted story arc that DC can't stop picking at.
    For what it's worth, Rucka intended to really develop that story and deal with the fallout. He didn't know he was getting replaced on volume 3.

  4. #184
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    True. But the storyline was mostly published in Superman titles, and Wonder Woman was brought in to save Superman's ass, and then blamed for the way she did it.

    It's simply not a good Wonder Woman story. Maxwell Lord as a Wonder Woman villain is a scab from an aborted story arc that DC can't stop picking at.
    Wait, wait, wait, what? Sacrifice isn't a good Wonder Woman story? Have you forgotten this?

    WW SACRIFICE w-wonder_woman_v2__219___page_20.jpg
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    Last edited by Koriand'r; 05-26-2020 at 09:18 PM.

  5. #185
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    What is it with dc and neck-snapping? it seems to be their go-to form of murder.

  6. #186
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    True. But the storyline was mostly published in Superman titles, and Wonder Woman was brought in to save Superman's ass, and then blamed for the way she did it.

    It's simply not a good Wonder Woman story. Maxwell Lord as a Wonder Woman villain is a scab from an aborted story arc that DC can't stop picking at.
    Wasn’t claiming it was, merely pointing out that Lord is one of the few villains who left a major impact. I don’t like that it was him and not one of her traditional Rogues, but it happened, so the connection will always be there. And it does offer some opportunities that I don’t think are all bad. Like I said, Lord was part of multiple communities that WW has traditionally also taken part in, I don’t think some espionage stories where she and Lord go head to head are without potential. Look DC has decided that he’s a WW Rogue, and he’s going to be in a WW movie so like it or not, that will cement him as one. General Zod was not a major Superman villain until Superman II. Lord has a “feat” and he’ll soon have a movie appearance so unfortunately that means he’s probably going to stick around. I’m just trying to look on the bright side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    For what it's worth, Rucka intended to really develop that story and deal with the fallout. He didn't know he was getting replaced on volume 3.
    If he had stuck around I think he would’ve done a great job dealing with the fallout, but this is DC so no, let’s reboot instead! Again.
    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    What is it with dc and neck-snapping? it seems to be their go-to form of murder.
    The real reason? It’s a goreless way to kill someone so you don’t get a lot of blood and guts that will upset the children. Barry Allen snapped Thawne’s neck back in the Bronze Age I think, so part of the trend might be homaging that.

  7. #187
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Wait, wait, wait, what? Sacrifice isn't a good Wonder Woman story? Have you forgotten this?
    No. But it's a story that depends on a huge retcon-slash-reveal of Superman's past for several years, that doesn't really say anything about Diana's personality or showcase her powers in interesting ways, where Superman is the central character of the story, and where Diana saves both Batman and Superman and is then blamed by them for it.

    I think it's telling that not one site I found over the top Wonder Woman stories lists "Sacrifice". If you want Wonder Woman versus Superman, JLA: A League of One is in wholly another league.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Wasn’t claiming it was, merely pointing out that Lord is one of the few villains who left a major impact. I don’t like that it was him and not one of her traditional Rogues, but it happened, so the connection will always be there.
    Yes, the connection is there. That doesn't mean it has to be brought up again and again, like picking on a scab.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    If you want Wonder Woman versus Superman, JLA: A League of One is in wholly another league.
    A League of One is better overall, but Diana saying she could never beat Clark is lame. As far as actual fights with Superman go, I do prefer "Sacrifice."


    But yeah, "Sacrifice" itself isn't much of a Wonder Woman story. The fallout though could've led to compelling stuff for her. Her reputation was tarnished, she was forced to be a fugitive, Clark and Bruce both scum-bagged her (in my opinion anyway), the gods abandoned her, Themyscira went to another plane...I remember being very interested in where they would go with all that.

    Unfortunately, it wound up being very little. Diana, Clark, & Bruce all kind of agree to forget the whole thing, and she got a secret identity that went absolutely nowhere. Huzzah.

    The worst thing about the Max Lord story was Greg Ruck went to great lengths to establish 1) Diana believed she had no other choice, 2) she was not happy about it at all, and 3) she was perfectly willing to accept the consequences for it.

    But then Geoff Johns had her try cutting Mongol's head off a month later and get offended when Superman stopped her.
    I mean, okay, Mongol is a bigger threat than Max Lord, but still. Way to make Diana look like an murderous hypocrite, Geoff. And that just opened the door for the "angry murderous warrior" interpretation of her.


    As for Max himself....ehhh. Even though he's pretty much a weak-sauce Dr. Psycho in as far as what he brings to Diana's rogues table, if they're going to make him a WW villain, I just hope the commit to it.
    I'm thinking about after how after he was resurrected, they did a Justice League International story and actively avoided getting Diana involved...even though Max's entire plan wound up revolving around killing her...and she only appeared at the end to get her ass kicked by his secret weapon so the JLI could rescue her.

    If they're going to make him a Wonder Woman villain...make him a Wonder Woman villain. Not a villain who happens to hate her in particular.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  9. #189
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Sacrifice was an overall bad story with a bad legacy that WW can't shake. Rucka executed his portion well enough, but it wasn't designed for the Wonder Woman book. It was a tie in to Infinite Crisis, and event that famously didn't do well by Wonder Woman at all. It arguably didn't do anything good for any of the Trinity characters (including both versions of Superman) because Johns has a rather poor grasp on their characters. Or at least an inconsistent one.

    Was this something Rucka would have included in his run if he had full control and it could be self contained? I doubt it. There were too many cooks in the kitchen and the result was lousy, and it was only put in place so she could be scapegoated for Infinite Crisis. She can't escape the legacy of this story or Max Lord, because now he's been shoehorned into her movies over actual WW characters.

  10. #190
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    Diana's "lesson" coming in the form of a secret identity post-Infinite Crisis is also dumb when you consider that the events of Identity Crisis and to a lesser extent Infinite Crisis were caused by the culture of secrets and lies among superheroes. Think about it, if the League hadn't been so paranoid about keeping their identities a secret, they never would have mind-wiped Dr Light and then had to mindwipe Batman to cover that up which wouldn't have led to him creating Brother Eye.

  11. #191
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana's "lesson" coming in the form of a secret identity post-Infinite Crisis is also dumb when you consider that the events of Identity Crisis and to a lesser extent Infinite Crisis were caused by the culture of secrets and lies among superheroes. Think about it, if the League hadn't been so paranoid about keeping their identities a secret, they never would have mind-wiped Dr Light and then had to mindwipe Batman to cover that up which wouldn't have led to him creating Brother Eye.
    It's just awful all around.

    Batman is the only one of the Trinity to get a good storyline OYL, but it took ignoring the previous events completely to get there. The whole exercise was pointless and didn't amount to anything

  12. #192
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    I feel like Max Lord is going to become Wonder Woman’s new Dr. Psycho/Purple Man type of character.
    If they were to do, than I'd prefer they just bring in a version of Earth-One Psycho.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post

    Was this something Rucka would have included in his run if he had full control and it could be self contained? I doubt it. There were too many cooks in the kitchen and the result was lousy, and it was only put in place so she could be scapegoated for Infinite Crisis. She can't escape the legacy of this story or Max Lord, because now he's been shoehorned into her movies over actual WW characters.
    Yeah, even with the trailers I've been thinking in Max could easily be a re-imagined Psycho or swap genders have Veronica Cale in his place.

  13. #193
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    Wait.... Brother Eye was created by Batman because Dr Light raped Sue??

    ...whaaaaaa...?!


    Maybe that's in the comics, and I just haven't reread them in so long that I've forgotten, but that's massively stupid and weird.

    And I completely agree with everything that's been said in this thread regarding Maxwell Lord as a Wonder Woman villain. He is so tangentially related to Wonder Woman and Doctor Psycho already has that turf covered, thank you.

  14. #194
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, even with the trailers I've been thinking in Max could easily be a re-imagined Psycho or swap genders have Veronica Cale in his place.
    That we're likely not getting an adaptation of the Cheetah/Cale feud in the movies is pretty disappointing to me

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyBoy View Post
    Wait.... Brother Eye was created by Batman because Dr Light raped Sue??

    ...whaaaaaa...?!


    Maybe that's in the comics, and I just haven't reread them in so long that I've forgotten, but that's massively stupid and weird.

    And I completely agree with everything that's been said in this thread regarding Maxwell Lord as a Wonder Woman villain. He is so tangentially related to Wonder Woman and Doctor Psycho already has that turf covered, thank you.
    To clarify, the sequence of events is as follows:

    * Dr Light rapes Sue Dibny.

    * The Justice League mindwipes him and turns him into a bumbling idiot so he can never do something like that again.

    * Batman discovers this and the League erases his memories.

    * Batman later recovers his memories and realizes the League had been mindwiping other people like Catwoman as well.

    * Batman creates Brother Eye to monitor the metahuman population.

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