Should superman have arcs in movies or should he be a flat arc character?

[Kuwagaton]

Superman always does the right thing. Being superman is the right thing. There by the flat arc.But,removing ambiguities and the potential to be the gun from the character is inviting trouble. People will reject it. Why?its basically denying the shadow, in jungian term.there by giving an open invitation for it to take over. Ergo, the reason for all the superman goes bad stories.

"Superman goes bad" is really a drop in the bucket, though. The idea of removing ambiguity is pretty hard given the last seven years of movies. But according to their success and appeal maybe they should try anyway?

See, goku is largely a flat arc character himself other than his outlook about saiyans and his own heritage . But, the story never denies that saiyans where conquering race, who were later revealed to be slaves themselves. It never denies goku has also all the saiyan traits of being battle hungry and could have gone that path had he not hit his head as a baby. Iron giant never denies that he was a weapon that chooses to be superman. There in lies problem with the superman. People have been given the other side of character for years Due to boyscout or saint portrayals like secret origins .Now, The fans(insiders) of the character vehemently don't want its existence, creates space jesus. Non fans(outsiders) don't believe it's existence, so can't connect create space devils. Superman is dangerous. If you deny that, you are basically setting yourself up for this wierd dichotomy or boring stories.The first captain america movie is decent. Is it memorable? No. The second and third one put cap as the centre of mcu. There is a reason for it. If cap isn't a potential threat to his world, he is boring or he isn't an agent of change . If superman agrees with his world. There is no conflict. A superman story should be always be him vs the world largely.

I don't agree on Goku, but it feels here like launching into Goku to make a point about Superman. They have some similarities but they're vastly different where at least Captain America has virtually identical distribution if not written character.

On fans and non fans... if only because we're literally describing everybody, I don't think there's a "they" so then "what they want" is basically everything and nothing.

Superman vs the world... out of curiosity, what's your opinion on Superman '78?

[manwhohaseverything]

"Superman goes bad" is really a drop in the bucket, though. The idea of removing ambiguity is pretty hard given the last seven years of movies. But according to their success and appeal maybe they should try anyway?

The market for evil superman has been pretty stable actually. And the potential is so much so that companies are willing to invest money on producing such stories. They can seriously start to affect the other stories and the perception of superman as a character moving forward, if not careful. Removing ambiguities in superman isn't that hard actually.

For example, three instances

1. "Now listen to me clark,this great strength of yours--you have to hide it or they'll be afraid of you. But when the right time comes you must use it to assist humanity "
   
2. "No man on earth has the amazing powers you have. You can Become a powerful force for good. There are evil men in this world... Criminals and outlaws who prey on decent folk. You must fight them in cooperation with the law"
   
3. "No, no. Now, you listen to me. When you first came to us, we thought people would come and take you away because, when they found out, you know, the things you could do... and that worried us a lot. But then a man gets older, and he starts thinking differently and things get very clear. And one thing I do know, son, and that is you are here for a *reason*. I don't know whose reason, or whatever the reason is... Maybe it's because... uh... I don't know. But I do know one thing. It's *not* to score touchdowns. Huh?"

The former has a level of distrust and fear of harsh realities of the world. Yet, altruism is clearly evident because of the last statement "you must assist humanity" . It lets clark take the choice for himself,when and how to go about things. There is ambiguities and uncertainties there. The later, is not only straight forward but also morality is handed down. Every thing is basically laid out. Both is done for a flat arc character. Yet, former is intriguing and later can come of bland.

I love the pa and clark talk in superman the movie. This also much more ambiguous statement compared to the second.Here fear,lack of knowledge and uncertainty are visible. But there is a confidence . Choice is still left to clark. His journey to find out the reason and whether or not to live by that reason . When writers go for the second type of statement instead of the first and third, superman becomes boring and bland. The slight differences in the way the character has been written and how dialogues come of basically impact how the character is.

In the Second statement there is no fear in the equation.While in the first and third it's there.

I don't agree on Goku, but it feels here like launching into Goku to make a point about Superman. They have some similarities but they're vastly different where at least Captain America has virtually identical distribution if not written character.

On fans and non fans... if only because we're literally describing everybody, I don't think there's a "they" so then "what they want" is basically everything and nothing.

Superman vs the world... out of curiosity, what's your opinion on Superman '78?

No, that wasn't my intention. They are vastly different, but at the core superman and goku share commonalities as fellow action characters. I am talking from their common ground. While goku is more of character on "righteous competition" while superman is more on "morality with power". Regardless, flat arc characters require the ambiguities is all i am saying. Otherwise, it's boring. I mean, Having a powerful baby that can do anything, can blow up in your face pretty fast. So there is alot of uncertainties.

It's decent. It's kant to a t in ethics. so, has quiet a few similarity with full metal alchemist. yet, is less complex than fma.

It lacks the level of conflict problem i mentioned earlier . The elric brothers are basically fighting the authorities figures of their world as well. Which clark isn't . So it comes of a little blander in superman the movie.So,"vs the world" problem still persists. Clark doesn't much change anything. See, when i mean by "vs the world" is a constantly changing world with clark being the constant that he is being put at odds.

i wouldn't say such stories can't work. But it needs to be more nuanced, present other side fairly and crtique itself for it's shortcomings. For example, Alphonse elric basically goes for the same as superman. Whereas, superman isn't questioned. Alphonse is given an actual counter point on how he didn't through the rule book out, just made it a win all or loose all situation with 50/50 chance. Ultimately, the story says that it is better to go for the 50/50 game than comparing the value of lifes and bare the consequences or outcome. There is no replacement for a life.It would also need the above mentioned level of conflict. Ideals have consequences. Superman needs more of that in both positive and negative.


i do believe ,world has grown more cynical and existential . Its why "god is dead" isn't much of a revelation,anymore. Superman the movie will need to be much more nuanced to work now.

[The World]

"Superman goes bad" is really a drop in the bucket, though. The idea of removing ambiguity is pretty hard given the last seven years of movies. But according to their success and appeal maybe they should try anyway?



I don't agree on Goku, but it feels here like launching into Goku to make a point about Superman. They have some similarities but they're vastly different where at least Captain America has virtually identical distribution if not written character.

On fans and non fans... if only because we're literally describing everybody, I don't think there's a "they" so then "what they want" is basically everything and nothing.

Superman vs the world... out of curiosity, what's your opinion on Superman '78?

Now that's an interesting thought, it's been years since I've seen the Reeve/Donner movies but he was a character that had the ability to reject outcomes that didn't work out the way he wanted them to. He only experiences real consequences if he feels like it.