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Thread: Best Bat-wife

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    those Silver Age stories were pretty silly and stiff with Batman kissing Kathy ("Prisoner of Three Worlds").
    But quite affecting, don't you think? With a barebones style, Sheldon Moldoff and Charles Paris were able to convey that sense of discomfort and panic, that every little boy feels around girls. I think Moldoff was a genius, because he could capture so much emotion in the simple Bob Kane style. The stiffness and the naivety are all intentional. Given the comics were aimed at eight year olds--that was exactly the right thing.
    🇨🇦 O Canada

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    It showed that Batman in a serious relationship with a criminal damages him as a hero. And modern Selina is a thief at her core, nobody forces her to be a criminal, she enjoys stealing.
    Hero Selina is boring af and not true to her modern characterization.
    I see no future for those two together that I'm interested in.
    The well has been so thoroughly poisoned for modern Batman as a character at this point, he is damaged as a hero long before we bring Selina into the equation. Even as a thief, an argument could be made that she's no more of a criminal than him. It sucks to say, but DC has gradually made him more of a criminal than her.

    He doesn't have a firm romantic future with anyone because DC needs to keep publishing canon Batman comics. There is precedent for both of them putting their costumed lives behind them and settling down, but that means the story is over, which is why we don't get it outside of other media, alternate timelines, ec. Aside from that, she's his most prolific, iconic and popular love interest. Their dynamic isn't ever going away, if it was it would have vanished long before now.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The well has been so thoroughly poisoned for modern Batman as a character at this point, he is damaged as a hero long before we bring Selina into the equation. Even as a thief, an argument could be made that she's no more of a criminal than him. It sucks to say, but DC has gradually made him more of a criminal than her.

    He doesn't have a firm romantic future with anyone because DC needs to keep publishing canon Batman comics. There is precedent for both of them putting their costumed lives behind them and settling down, but that means the story is over, which is why we don't get it outside of other media, alternate timelines, ec. Aside from that, she's his most prolific, iconic and popular love interest. Their dynamic isn't ever going away, if it was it would have vanished long before now.
    Then I propose dropping her like a hot stone to get Batman back to the way he should be.

  4. #34
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    And you guys seriously overestimate how long Catwoman has been his most prominent love interest, it changes every two decades.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    Then I propose dropping her like a hot stone to get Batman back to the way he should be.
    Actually Selina was meant to be the Bruce's love interest since the very first issue of Batman, where he let her escape after having arrested her.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    Actually Selina was meant to be the Bruce's love interest since the very first issue of Batman, where he let her escape after having arrested her.
    He also had a fiance for some time, then he had Vicky Vale, who Selina tried to kill out of jealousy.
    Batman has countless love interests. And for a long time she wasn't the most important one in comics.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    Then I propose dropping her like a hot stone to get Batman back to the way he should be.
    You're mistaken if you think doing that would fix Batman or that she's even one of the causes.

    Only a full blown reboot is going to fix him now. The rot was setting in as early as the 90s. Selina isn't compromising him morally, he often does it all by himself due to bad writing that has sadly had a cumulative effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    And you guys seriously overestimate how long Catwoman has been his most prominent love interest, it changes every two decades.
    I think you're seriously underestimating how long it's been. Since at least the 70s she's been one of the main ones in the main comics. She was in TDKR as an old flame for a reason whereas I don't believe any of the others were even referenced. I imagine Pfeiffer's Catwoman would win the polls for most popular love interest in the 90s films. Stuff like the Adam West show made her a household name. Both of which in turn likely lead to Nolan using her as the endgame romance. We'll see what Reeves has in store for Pattison and Kravitz, but she's the only love interest confirmed in the move so far. Much like the Batman-Joker dynamic, directors seem eager to put their own stamp on Bruce-Selina.

    Couples dress as them for Halloween and the casuals know why. This has been going on for at least 4-5 decades, in and (more importantly) outside of comics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    He also had a fiance for some time, then he had Vicky Vale, who Selina tried to kill out of jealousy.
    Batman has countless love interests. And for a long time she wasn't the most important one in comics.
    There's a reason Julie got phased out and that Vicki never really took off as anything other than Gotham Lois Lane: they are not particularly memorable or exciting even compared to other superhero civilian love interests like Lois or Mary Jane. And everyone assumed they were just beards and Batman and Robin was the real romance anyway That's even the legit reason Kathy Kane was even invented.

    Who was the most important one in the comics? If it was Talia, it was mainly while O'Neil was in charge. And the impact outside of comics is more important anyway. She hasn't achieve Lois Lane or Mary Jane there, but she's really the only one to come close in addition to being a popular character in her own right.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 03-15-2020 at 11:57 AM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    He also had a fiance for some time, then he had Vicky Vale, who Selina tried to kill out of jealousy.
    Batman has countless love interests. And for a long time she wasn't the most important one in comics.
    I think you missed the point: look every story with Catwoman in every incarnation of the Batman franchise: the TV show of the sixties, the Telltale games, the Arkham Series, the cartoon of the nineties, the graphic novels…
    Catwoman has constantly tried to turn Batman into a criminal or at least she has tried to force him to be more morally flexible, but she has failed every time and in the end she was the one who had "to bend her immorality", starting to help Batman and becoming more and more similar to an antihero. This doesn't make Batman bad, this make him good, because he is able to redeem her; sort of. What make him bad, are stories like "Murderer/Fuggitive", where he act like a true sociopath who don't care about the other, who acts like he were a friend of them if he needs to use them if Batman (Batman, not Bruce) and then he forgot them or sentences like: «Bruce Wayne doesn't exist, he is only a mask I use when I can't act like Batman; Batman is the true me.», like He say during "Murderer/Fugitive". Those are the things that are destroying (destroyed?) Batman, not his relationship with Selina.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I think you missed the point: look every story with Catwoman in every incarnation of the Batman franchise: the TV show of the sixties, the Telltale games, the Arkham Series, the cartoon of the nineties, the graphic novels… Catwoman has constantly tried to turn Batman into a criminal or at least she has tried to force him to be more morally flexible and she failed every time and in the end she was the one who had "to bend her immorality", starting to help Batman and becoming more and more similar to an antihero. This doesn't make Batman bad, what make him bad are stories like "Murderer/Fuggitive", where he act like a true sociopath who don't care about the other, who uses them and acts like they were his friend only if Batman (Batman, not Bruce) needs them and then he forgot about them. Sentences like: «Bruce Wayne doesn't exist, he is only a mask, I use when I can't act like Batman»; like Bruce Wayne say during "Murderer/Fugitive". Those are the things that are destroying Batman, not his relationship with Selina.
    Exactly! Selina as she is broadly characterized is nowhere near as bad as the other Gotham villains to begin with; Batman as a do-gooder who wins her over to the side of the angels (when their story is mapped out with an ending in mind) makes sense with both their characters.

    Of course, that's Batman as he's meant to be broadly characterized as a heroic figure. When you factor in stories like Murderer/Fugitive, OMAC, etc. the dynamic is screwy. Mostly because the problem isn't with her, it makes you wonder why she (or anyone) would be charmed by him.

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I think you missed the point: look every story with Catwoman in every incarnation of the Batman franchise: the TV show of the sixties, the Telltale games, the Arkham Series, the cartoon of the nineties, the graphic novels…
    Catwoman has constantly tried to turn Batman into a criminal or at least she has tried to force him to be more morally flexible, but she has failed every time and in the end she was the one who had "to bend her immorality", starting to help Batman and becoming more and more similar to an antihero. This doesn't make Batman bad, this make him good, because he is able to redeem her; sort of. What make him bad, are stories like "Murderer/Fuggitive", where he act like a true sociopath who don't care about the other, who acts like he were a friend of them if he needs to use them if Batman (Batman, not Bruce) and then he forgot them or sentences like: «Bruce Wayne doesn't exist, he is only a mask I use when I can't act like Batman; Batman is the true me.», like He say during "Murderer/Fugitive". Those are the things that are destroying (destroyed?) Batman, not his relationship with Selina.
    And Talia wants him to join the League of Assassins.

    There's a Batman quote about why he avoids Bekka. Being in Bekka's presence makes him feel like his avoidance of romance is creepy and unnatural. "Sometimes I wonder if I'm even human anymore. Sex, love... even the slightest yearning I've repressed and rechanneled into the Almighty Will. How perverse it feels in her(Bekka) presence. Every relationship was a charade, or some reluctant excursion I knew I would never complete."

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    And Talia wants him to join the League of Assassins.
    […]
    In my humble opinion Talia has a critical problem: she is the daughter of Ra's al Ghoul. Let's understand, they are great character/idea, but I think they can express all their potential only if they were put in some plot about worldwide conspiracy, but the Batman franchise doesn't allow to do that, because it is focused on Gotham and its criminality/corruption; it is the greatest strength and the greatest weakness of the franchise. If Ra's, Talia and the League were put in the James Bond franchise, they would give a sparkling performance, but in the Batman franchise they aren't able to show their true potential.

  13. #43
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    Selina is the one true love of Batman .

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    Selina is the one true love of Batman .
    The true love of Batman is whatever character DC currently chose for that role and it changes over time.

  15. #45
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    Pre-Morrison Talia is my favourite.

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