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  1. #61
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Okay. Sales definitely factor into global recognition. Also, you used a list you found on the internet that doesn't seem to provide the method by which it arrived at its conclusion. Also, you literally just have to look on Wikipedia to see the highest-grossing media franchises. That includes everything, from comics to toys to film. And again, this isn't a knock on Superman. Superman is also on the list. However, to say that either has higher global recognition than the other is disingenuous.
    As I said, I don't have the link I originally used for that paper, I almost never save links (especially for college work). Even if I did, if I shared it, all it would do is ask you to log into the university website to view it, which I doubt anyone can do (it'd be a hell of a coincidence if we attended the same school). So I got the next best thing I could find. And I have been very upfront about that. It's not the best source but it closely matches the research I can't share.

    And sales *do not* equate recognition. That is a false equivalency. That's first semester business basics man. People can know who Superman is without spending money on his merchandise. Sales =/= recognition. They just don't, no matter how much you might think they do. And this isn't popularity either; people can know who Superman is and not be a fan.

    If all you have is "Batman sells more so he must have higher recognition" then I'll leave you to your flawed logic, because that's just not how it works. Again, I leave the example of Overwatch and Sherlock Holmes. One is a billion dollar video game IP and one is a literary classic. The video game makes more money. Much more. By your reasoning, it must be more well known around the world than Sherlock Holmes, right? But does that seem likely to you? I would hope not.

    I'm not just talking out of my ass here man. This is crap I've spent many years studying and working with, and the information I'm relaying isn't my own work or opinion but the research of professionals who have certainly put more time into the topic than either of us.

    Also, you've been saying Batman must be more well known, but now you say trying to label either as more well known is disingenuous. Which is it?
    Last edited by Ascended; 03-15-2020 at 12:20 PM.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    As I said, I don't have the link I originally used for that paper, I almost never save links (especially for college work). Even if I did, if I shared it, all it would do is ask you to log into the university website to view it, which I doubt anyone can do (it'd be a hell of a coincidence if we attended the same school). So I got the next best thing I could find. And I have been very upfront about that. It's not the best source but it closely matches the research I can't share.

    And sales *do not* equate recognition. That is a false equivalency. That's first semester business basics man. People can know who Superman is without spending money on his merchandise. Sales =/= recognition. They just don't, no matter how much you might think they do. And this isn't popularity either; people can know who Superman is and not be a fan.

    If all you have is "Batman sells more so he must have higher recognition" then I'll leave you to your flawed logic, because that's just not how it works. Again, I leave the example of Overwatch and Sherlock Holmes. One is a billion dollar video game IP and one is a literary classic. The video game makes more money. Much more. By your reasoning, it must be more well known around the world than Sherlock Holmes, right? But does that seem likely to you? I would hope not.

    I'm not just talking out of my ass here man. This is crap I've spent many years studying and working with, and the information I'm relaying isn't my own work or opinion but the research of professionals who have certainly put more time into the topic than either of us.

    Also, you've been saying Batman must be more well known, but now you say trying to label either as more well known is disingenuous. Which is it?
    First off, I'm not saying Batman is more well-known. I've been very clear that what I'm saying is that they're equally well-known around the world. This is what I said in my first response:

    Pretty sure they're mostly considered equals in terms of cultural impact. They're both pop culture icons who have a beneficial impact.
    However, putting Batman on equal footing with Superman seems to be offensive to some...

    Secondly, the Overwatch/Sherlock Holmes comparison does not work for this Batman/Superman discussion. Batman is not just a video game. Batman and Superman are both like Sherlock Holmes in that they are both characters that have transcended into various forms of media across literal decades. Overwatch, even though it makes over $1 billion, is still just a video game. It is not comparable to Batman at all. The comparison between Batman and Superman is more akin to a comparison between Sherlock Holmes and King Arthur.

    And for that matter, I don't get why people are finding it so hard to admit that Batman is equal to Superman in regards to their cultural awareness. If anything, it's a given since they both debuted in the late 30s, they both were incredibly popular immediately after their debuts, and they both are looked at as two of the main archetypes for the superhero genre. Admitting Batman is an equal doesn't take anything away from Superman.

  3. #63
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    First off, I'm not saying Batman is more well-known. I've been very clear that what I'm saying is that they're equally well-known around the world. This is what I said in my first response:
    Ah, I missed that opening remark.

    However, putting Batman on equal footing with Superman seems to be offensive to some...
    We're on the Super forum, you know some of us are touchy about Clark's standing.

    Secondly, the Overwatch/Sherlock Holmes comparison does not work for this Batman/Superman discussion
    No, it's a perfectly valid comparison. We're discussing whether revenue is a reliable measurement of awareness. Media format doesn't really factor into that. I suppose Holmes and Arthur would be a better comparison if we were going to do down the lists of adaptations and media usage, but that's a separate thing from revenue/recognition. It'd just be a tangent.

    And for that matter, I don't get why people are finding it so hard to admit that Batman is equal to Superman in regards to their cultural awareness.
    I won't speak for others, but I was just pointing out that while both are global icons Superman (last I knew) did rank slightly above Bruce. I was just dropping some fun trivia, then got caught up in the business/marketing/sociological side of things.
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  4. #64
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Thos were just off the top of my head. You can search the web for more examples if you'd like. I'm sure there are plenty.



    Well, Bruce's training started when he was young. And it's been stated that Bruce has mastered 137 different forms of martial arts. So yes, he's a master. Again, your insistence that he doesn't meet the technical requirements of a ninja is just semantics. He doesn't have to meet all the requirements of a ninja. It was just the title of an anime movie. And for the 10th time, they didn't actually make him a ninja in the movie. He was still the same old Batman. The entire concept of the movie is just Batman's time traveling to feudal Japan.



    You did. Multiple times...


    Again, please stop saying one thing and then trying to pretend you never said it.

    And what I'm telling you is that Batman is the same. There have been presentations and adaptations of Batman in Japan, in India, in Italy, in China, and beyond. Heck, the cover of a Batman comic was used to galvanize people in the Hong Kong protests.



    Yes, you obviously do since you're basically engaging in mental gymnastics here to try and get out of admitting that Batman is, in fact, a global icon on the same level. I honestly don't get why you don't want to admit that, especially since it's not a knock against Superman in any regard, but here we are.

    Also, if you're going to lump Harry Potter and Superman into the same "hero" archetype but exclude Batman, despite decades of Bruce proving himself a hero, then I can't help you.



    Oh, I criticize the "Batmaning" of everything approach too. Doesn't mean that Batman doesn't have a wide international presence nor that he even needs to be pushed to the extent he is to be iconic. He's Batman. He's iconic.



    Obviously it is because it doesn't support your argument. You have a hard number that shows the extent of Batman's popularity and you're discounting it for no other reason really. And you don't have any evidence to really back up the reasons you're saying you're rejecting it.



    Did you just compare the Bat-symbol to the swastika? Wow. Okay. You really need to reckon with your apparent bias against the character.

    Also, forgive me if I don't exactly take your word on the matter.
    2 examples ,of the top of your head< 6 or7 without including all the pardodies, indirect connections like one punch man and of the top of my head. I haven't even touched the west or middle east. Nor have i included all the references like the hayao miyazaki movies or sheer fact that batman and spiderman himself is inspired by superman. There is no comparison interms of impact. Superman still put super in superheroes.

    The title is batman ninja and the guy inside it wasn't one. Knowing137 and mastering are two different things. Bones of a person pretty much as we grow and by the time we are 10. A person who starts earlier and a person who start later will be different. Ninjas are specifically of the former kind. It is requirement to be a child soldier in ninja system.batman is ninja - esque because he wear black and runs around in the dark, doesn't make him a ninja. He is essentially pretending to be one.zorro isn't a ninja. I would equally be criticize them calling superman a samurai. These guys have strict codes that are different from batman's or superman's.

    Adapting something like superman as superman.Adapting superman for a different audience and changing the concept to fit a culture are two different thing. Superman doesn't need that. Batman does. He needs excuse of having 137 martial arts why so he can be seen as part of any culture. When the character clearly isn't. Superman on the other hand is strongman alien vigilante. They are the same whether it's japan or Antarctica . Superman can be himself. He doesn't need to be a sumo in japan. Strongmen are found everywhere and are the same throughout the world wether its Scotland or punjab.

    Yet, batman ninja is a thing.

    It isn't mental gymnastics. You clearly have no idea what is a archetype.
    Universal hero - archetype
    Two sets of parents. Great by nature, focused by nurture . Journey to find a place to fit in. Fights and slays serpents or dragons or demon to save the damsel and get the hidden treasure .
    Harry potter and superman fit the bill. Does batman fit the bill? No. Before you take this dragons and serpents as literal. It isn't. And even if it is superman used to fighy giant green lizards. Harry potter, superman, krishna, karna, moses... Etc. Superman is the quintessential hero pattern that are part of every culture, that repeat itself more often than any other.

    Batman's core isn't. Even in the archetypes i mentioned. Batman fits more the fallen angel or devil or tragic hero archetype. Even there he doesn't fit. Why?because His story doesn't focus on the fall but the rise. Batman rises, period. There might be a reason for Batman not fitting any natural human thought process patterns . Because He is meant to be the ubermensch. Superman isn't. Superman is the hero. If batman fits perfectly into any patterns he siezes to be the ubermensch . But, that also robs him of universality and trades it for individuality. Joker though fits the bill of the jester archetype. Granted in recent years the ubermensch like characters have itself started becoming an archetype. Guts is also an ubermensch.

    That also, still leaves the fact that the likes of superman survive, still get more recognisable day by day despite dc or wb and not because of it. That still leaves the fact that superman is still more known. So, point goes to superman.that has always been the argument. I have never perpetuated the cyclical nature of business doesn't exist. Batman being iconic isn't an argument. When the question is why there is no superman manga or wonder woman and yet for batman there is? The question is why they aren't used when they have a better chance of becoming a success in asia market?just from the fact of sheer number of superman or wonder woman inspired characters is enough proof of the fact that they can do well and better than batman.

    Yes, is there a problem. I also compared it to a cross as well. Swastika is used around the world. Regardless of the white supremacy nonsense perpetuated by the idiots in germany and their so called "aryans". It is one of the most recognisable symbols in the world. Most cultures around the world has some forms of it.it was used in maps, celebrationsand other stuff for many purposes, spanning back thousands of years, bce. The comparison isn't ill informed.You seriously need to read what i wrote, if you think i implied any negative or positive connotation than a neutral one.

    Don't take my word for it. Just think simple logic. The probability of knowing superman and not knowing batman is far higher,than knowing batman and not knowing superman. That is just how it goes That gives him an edge in terms of people in the know. Not to mention the fact that he wears red undies outside his pants, which is pretty eye-catching,lol.

    Edit-For the record, i am being blunt and impersonal. My personal liking of superman has no bearing. I don't think batman is as well known as superman. Superman is in competition with mickey mouse and can even beat pikachu and bugs bunny. The s is just more recognisable.I wouldn't find it offensive if batman were more well known. But, he isn't.I haven't found anything to make me believe otherwise
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 03-16-2020 at 04:05 AM.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Superman has a certain cultural significance that other heroes don't have. When it comes to Superman references in music, be it something direct like the Jim Croce song, or something more indirect like the Spin Doctors' album or that line in a Matchbox 20 song. I guess I could mention the Five for Fighting song, but I'm not really fond of it. Oh, crap...

    The one reference that will always jump out to me, though, is from the first Tobey Maguire Spider-man movie, "You're not Superman, you know." The average person has such a basic understanding of Superman that just saying the word "Superman" has both general and specific wide-ranging definitions that don't really apply to other heroes, except Wonder Woman if you're making a female-specific comment. If you called someone a "Superman," it could mean he's really strong, or just vaguely great at everything. Calling someone "Clark Kent" also has meaning in ways other superhero civilian IDs don't. If someone has a weakness, it's his "kryptonite." I'm still amused that the word "Brainiac" is in our dictionary and is credited to having its origin in Superman comics. Putting on a cape (usually red) is shorthand for being superheroic.

    That said, I think Superman's cultural relevance is declining. Anecdotally, there hasn't been as many references I've noticed as late in music, TV, movies, etc. Years ago the John Williams Superman theme was instantly recognizable; I'm not so sure that our younger fellow citizens would be able to name that tune.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Superman direct references have been made in recent blockbuster movies like Hobbs and Shaw. The show Suits has made several ones too, including Lois Lane and Lana red head. "One Call Away" song. Parks and Rec show to Supes and Lex Luthor. ColdPlay band mention and show Superman in song and video. I'm sure there are more.

    Edit: in popular singing contest show, John Legend I think compared Superman and Wonder Woman to two really good singers last year.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 03-16-2020 at 08:54 AM.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Superman direct references have been made in recent blockbuster movies like Hobbs and Shaw. The show Suits has made several ones too, including Lois Lane and Lana red head. "One Call Away" song. Parks and Rec show to Supes and Lex Luthor. ColdPlay band mention and show Superman in song and video. I'm sure there are more.

    Edit: in popular singing contest show, John Legend I think compared Superman and Wonder Woman to two really good singers last year.
    Thanks, I guess I'm just out of the loop these days. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if it were empirically correct if Superman references are less plentiful or less effective. Nonetheless, it's nice to see it's still somewhat relevant.

    After my previous post, I also remembered how Cam Newton (does he still count as relevant? 2015 seems so long ago...) liked to do the Superman reveal after scoring TDs. It reminded me of one of my favorite Sports Illustrated covers of all time:

    cover.jpg

    It's indicative of cachet that Superman has that other heroes don't: you don't have to make a direct reference to Superman in name (ignore the "SuperMichael" caption for a moment) or copywritten symbolism to know it's clearly a reference to Superman, and the image alone (i.e. even if there was no "SuperMichael" caption) the picture tells the whole story:

    - Jordan the Chicago Bull was an extraordinary athlete, like someone above mere mortals
    - Jordan the White Sox Minor League baseball player was quite ordinary, obviously comparing to the Clark Kent ID
    - He's coming out of a phone booth because that was Superman's schtick (those were the days...)

    There's not one aspect of the image that directly references Superman, such as a cape or S-shield, but we all know what it means. How many other heroes could a drawing similar to this apply to?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    2 examples ,of the top of your head< 6 or7 without including all the pardodies, indirect connections like one punch man and of the top of my head. I haven't even touched the west or middle east. Nor have i included all the references like the hayao miyazaki movies or sheer fact that batman and spiderman himself is inspired by superman. There is no comparison interms of impact. Superman still put super in superheroes.
    Dude. Yes, Batman has inspired dozens of homages, parodies, etc. over the decades. Just as much as Superman. Easily. He's an iconic character. This insistence you have for denying that is kind of ridiculous at this point.

    The title is batman ninja and the guy inside it wasn't one. Knowing137 and mastering are two different things. Bones of a person pretty much as we grow and by the time we are 10. A person who starts earlier and a person who start later will be different. Ninjas are specifically of the former kind. It is requirement to be a child soldier in ninja system.batman is ninja - esque because he wear black and runs around in the dark, doesn't make him a ninja. He is essentially pretending to be one.zorro isn't a ninja. I would equally be criticize them calling superman a samurai. These guys have strict codes that are different from batman's or superman's.
    Well, for like the tenth time, it was the title of an anime movie. That's all. Also, Zorro hasn't mastered nearly half the amount of martial arts that Batman has. Neither has Superman. That's why it would be ridiculous to call Superman a samurai because he has nothing in common really with a samurai. He doesn't wield a katana nor does he wear kabuto armor and he himself hasn't trained much, if at all, in martial arts. However, even you said that Batman was "ninja-esque." Batman is very much like a ninja, which is why they put out an anime movie titled "Batman: Ninja." It doesn't mean Batman is literally a ninja.

    But again, I said that Batman has mastered 137 different martial arts. That's been cemented in his backstory.

    Adapting something like superman as superman.Adapting superman for a different audience and changing the concept to fit a culture are two different thing. Superman doesn't need that. Batman does. He needs excuse of having 137 martial arts why so he can be seen as part of any culture. When the character clearly isn't. Superman on the other hand is strongman alien vigilante. They are the same whether it's japan or Antarctica . Superman can be himself. He doesn't need to be a sumo in japan. Strongmen are found everywhere and are the same throughout the world wether its Scotland or punjab.

    Yet, batman ninja is a thing.
    Dude, again, Superman has been changed to fit the times and to fit the culture. Did we not get different versions of Superman in things like Red Son? Even characters like Icon and Goku would be considered adaptations of the Superman myth to better fit the target audience in a way the regular Superman doesn't. By your logic, that would indicate a weakness in the original concept because it needed to be reintroduced as different iterations. However, I have a feeling that's not what you meant to say.

    Oh, and again, for the 100th time, the actual movie Batman: Ninja isn't about Bruce training as a ninja from childhood. It's about the same old Bruce Wayne from modern-day Gotham who is the Batman. The only difference is that this Batman time-travels to feudal Japan in pursuit of Joker. You know, if you're going to try and use it against Batman, it'd be nice to actually watch the movie first.

    It's not an indictment to say that a character can be adapted for a different audience while not straying far from the original concept. In fact, that's a sign of strength for the franchise.

    It isn't mental gymnastics. You clearly have no idea what is a archetype.
    Universal hero - archetype
    Two sets of parents. Great by nature, focused by nurture . Journey to find a place to fit in. Fights and slays serpents or dragons or demon to save the damsel and get the hidden treasure .
    Harry potter and superman fit the bill. Does batman fit the bill? No. Before you take this dragons and serpents as literal. It isn't. And even if it is superman used to fighy giant green lizards. Harry potter, superman, krishna, karna, moses... Etc. Superman is the quintessential hero pattern that are part of every culture, that repeat itself more often than any other.
    Dude. No. It's obvious you're just trying to construct an archetype based on Superman to apply to him and only a few other characters. Hercules, arguably the OG example of the hero archetype, didn't have two sets of parents. He was the son of Zeus and a mortal woman. Perseus, another ancient Greek hero, was raised by a single mother. Jason, another Greek mythological hero, was the son of a king, thereby making him a prince. Likewise, Harry Potter wasn't necessarily "great by nature." Wasn't it stated that the only reason he survived Voldemort's attack was because of his mother's sacrifice and not his own natural ability?

    So, yeah, obviously, not all heroes fit that mold. The only thing consistent among heroes is if they've faced down a villain or gone on a quest for the benefit of others. Does Batman fit that mold? Yes, yes he does.

    Batman's core isn't. Even in the archetypes i mentioned. Batman fits more the fallen angel or devil or tragic hero archetype. Even there he doesn't fit. Why?because His story doesn't focus on the fall but the rise. Batman rises, period. There might be a reason for Batman not fitting any natural human thought process patterns . Because He is meant to be the ubermensch. Superman isn't. Superman is the hero. If batman fits perfectly into any patterns he siezes to be the ubermensch . But, that also robs him of universality and trades it for individuality. Joker though fits the bill of the jester archetype. Granted in recent years the ubermensch like characters have itself started becoming an archetype. Guts is also an ubermensch.

    That also, still leaves the fact that the likes of superman survive, still get more recognisable day by day despite dc or wb and not because of it. That still leaves the fact that superman is still more known. So, point goes to superman.that has always been the argument. I have never perpetuated the cyclical nature of business doesn't exist. Batman being iconic isn't an argument. When the question is why there is no superman manga or wonder woman and yet for batman there is? The question is why they aren't used when they have a better chance of becoming a success in asia market?just from the fact of sheer number of superman or wonder woman inspired characters is enough proof of the fact that they can do well and better than batman.
    Dude. I'm sorry, but none of this logically tracks. Firstly, Batman is not related to Neitzche's concept of the übermensch. The übermensch is a very complex concept that Nietzche set out as a "goal" of mankind. He was talking about something very different from Batman. Secondly, it's not like Superman gets no love from DC. He gets a lot. More than Wonder Woman ever gets, unfortunately. They chose to launch the DCEU with a Superman movie, regardless of the controversy surrounding that film; they give him a crap ton of animated films from two different versions of Death of Superman to Red Son; they put the new superstar writer on the Superman books right away, paired with one of the most popular artists ever; etc. And thirdly, there's no evidence to suggest that Batman does badly in East Asian markets or that any other characters would do significantly better.

    Yes, is there a problem. I also compared it to a cross as well. Swastika is used around the world. Regardless of the white supremacy nonsense perpetuated by the idiots in germany and their so called "aryans". It is one of the most recognisable symbols in the world. Most cultures around the world has some forms of it.it was used in maps, celebrationsand other stuff for many purposes, spanning back thousands of years, bce. The comparison isn't ill informed.You seriously need to read what i wrote, if you think i implied any negative or positive connotation than a neutral one.
    Oh please. Yes, I know the history of the swastika, but I think we both know the connotation of comparing anything to the swastika.

    Don't take my word for it. Just think simple logic. The probability of knowing superman and not knowing batman is far higher,than knowing batman and not knowing superman. That is just how it goes That gives him an edge in terms of people in the know. Not to mention the fact that he wears red undies outside his pants, which is pretty eye-catching,lol.
    I think we're operating on two very different definitions of what logic is. Logic, in this context, demands actual legitimate and quantifiable evidence. Again, you've provided none of that.

    Edit-For the record, i am being blunt and impersonal. My personal liking of superman has no bearing. I don't think batman is as well known as superman. Superman is in competition with mickey mouse and can even beat pikachu and bugs bunny. The s is just more recognisable.I wouldn't find it offensive if batman were more well known. But, he isn't.I haven't found anything to make me believe otherwise
    I think it's pretty obvious that it is. Again, show the Bat-symbol to literally anyone and they'll know it just the same as they'd know the S, but whatever. Agree to disagree.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 03-18-2020 at 12:02 AM.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    it's quite debatable between those three superheroes. To me Spiderman and Batman kind of battle it out for the top spot with Superman being a solid third. But that can fluctuate depending on the year and who has a movie in theaters at the time. To me the sheer number of Batman and Spiderman movies lets you know who Marvel and DC think are their most popular franchises. It's not that Superman is a bad character he's just a lot harder to get right. He's also a lot harder to make spinoff characters off of, which makes his franchise seem a lot smaller then Batman's.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    truncated
    This was about comparison, right? Batman having references/iconic or is'nt even up for debate. Superman just beats him at it. That's what we were talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Well, for like the tenth time, it was the title of an anime movie. That's all. Also, Zorro hasn't mastered nearly half the amount of martial arts that Batman has. Neither has Superman. That's why it would be ridiculous to call Superman a samurai because he has nothing in common really with a samurai. He doesn't wield a katana nor does he wear kabuto armor and he himself hasn't trained much, if at all, in martial arts. However, even you said that Batman was "ninja-esque." Batman is very much like a ninja, which is why they put out an anime movie titled "Batman: Ninja." It doesn't mean Batman is literally a ninja.
    Precisely the point, wearing black or running around in the dark is only commonality between batman and a ninja. If batman is a ninja so Is zorro. Regardless of how many martial arts he "knows".i would argue that treating the character like what he is more universal, a detective with combat skills.
    Actually superman becoming a samurai is very possible.Especially, if batman can become a ninja. You don't have to be strictly born into it to be one, from what i have read. Just need competence with a sword and loyalty to a master and mission. That's it. Regardless though it would be changing the concept of the Superman character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But again, I said that Batman has mastered 137 different martial arts. That's been cemented in his backstory.
    His backstory says he has knowledge of 137 martial arts. Mastering them is different. Masters are people devoted to something and has been focused on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Dude, again, Superman has been changed to fit the times and to fit the culture. Did we not get different versions of Superman in things like Red Son? Even characters like Icon and Goku would be considered adaptations of the Superman myth to better fit the target audience in a way the regular Superman doesn't. By your logic, that would indicate a weakness in the original concept because it needed to be reintroduced as different iterations. However, I have a feeling that's not what you meant to say.
    Only names changed. He was still an alien strongman as concept in red son. You could argue that he wasn't a vigilante. But, then again he became the law. He didn't become something else in concept like a sambo specialist or something . Goku is alien fighter or martial artists in concept. We are talking concept, not insprations or story beats. Icon borrows the concept of superman as strong man concept as a whole. While, goku doesn't.which is what i am talking about. Batman changed its very concept for fitting into a culture or atleast used it as marketing tactic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Oh, and again, for the 100th time, the actual movie Batman: Ninja isn't about Bruce training as a ninja from childhood. It's about the same old Bruce Wayne from modern-day Gotham who is the Batman. The only difference is that this Batman time-travels to feudal Japan in pursuit of Joker. You know, if you're going to try and use it against Batman, it'd be nice to actually watch the movie first.
    That's precisely a problem. If batman ninja isn't about a ninja then it's wrong. It was marketed batman ninja,except ninjas were fodders and concept was nowhere touched upon. The could have used the name of the period instead or something else. I saw the movie. Its basically like karate kid, except no karate and kungfu.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    It's not an indictment to say that a character can be adapted for a different audience while not straying far from the original concept. In fact, that's a sign of strength for the franchise.
    Adapating a concept and changing it are two different things in my book.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Dude. No. It's obvious you're just trying to construct an archetype based on Superman to apply to him and only a few other characters. Hercules, arguably the OG example of the hero archetype, didn't have two sets of parents. He was the son of Zeus and a mortal woman. Perseus, another ancient Greek hero, was raised by a single mother. Jason, another Greek mythological hero, was the son of a king, thereby making him a prince. Likewise, Harry Potter wasn't necessarily "great by nature." Wasn't it stated that the only reason he survived Voldemort's attack was because of his mother's sacrifice and not his own natural ability?
    Harry potter was a wizard. He was the one who escaped. The kid was born great, he just didn't have any idea about it. I said two sets of parents. Hercules had two sets of parents. He had a devouring mother in hera, father in zeus as one set . His mortal parents Amphitryon and Alcmene in an other set. Zeus and alcmene signify his nature. Amphitryon and hera his nurture. There is Hera gives herc madness, that is the catalyst of his Labours. Hera is very much herc's mother.She acts as an antagonistic figure. Jason existing doesn't mean he is a universal hero. Jason isn't. He is just a hero that's it and doesn't follow the archetype. Perseus had two sets of parents , ditto a universal hero. Perseus was raised by fisherman named Dictys. He slayed medusa for pete's sake.

    The set doesn't need to be complete(with a father and a mother archetype) nor does it have two be made of two characters of opposite sex or even the same species .it's basically bullet points what i wrote, ring any bells.for example, son of shiva and parvathy was raised by 6 women or sisters in hindu lore. Tarzan was raised by gorillas. Mowgli by wolves.there are countless examples like this in lores of other cultures around the world . There are even examples where two men birth children only to be raised by others. Jiraya was raised under the tutelage of toads and fought orochimaru-the snake for tsunade.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Truncated
    No, all heroes don't. No, batman doesn't. Jason doesn't. Achilles doesn't. Odyseuss doesn't. There is a difference between a hero and being part of human thought pattern so engraved that it repeats itself countless times. Superman is part of the pattern. Batman isn't. He is just a hero. Superman is a glorified cliché, is what i am saying like moses, jesus, krishna.. Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Dude. I'm sorry, but none of this logically tracks. Firstly, Batman is not related to Neitzche's concept of the übermensch. The übermensch is a very complex concept that Nietzche set out as a "goal" of mankind. He was talking about something very different from Batman. Secondly, it's not like Superman gets no love from DC. He gets a lot. More than Wonder Woman ever gets, unfortunately. They chose to launch the DCEU with a Superman movie, regardless of the controversy surrounding that film; they give him a crap ton of animated films from two different versions of Death of Superman to Red Son; they put the new superstar writer on the Superman books right away, paired with one of the most popular artists ever; etc. And thirdly, there's no evidence to suggest that Batman does badly in East Asian markets or that any other characters would do significantly better.
    Right, i might be totally an idiot for thinking all the talks of fighting monsters, madness, nihilism, existential struggle, madness and the abyss is not ubermensch at all. /s
    Get outta here with that. Batman is the ubermensch. He is the answer to questions and ethical conundrums of a world where god is dead and the devil is very much real. The goal of mankind is batman. Superman doesn't fit the bill, right now.He is based entirely on the values of mythical and religious thought.

    I agree that he gets more love than wonder woman. Animated movies are for fans.it doesn't mean much. But, the fact is these characters grow despite dc, not because of dc. The point i was making that keeps superman and wonderwoman apart from the popular and unpopular characters . And the fact is, Marvel made captain marvel a priemre character. It is a travesty that wonderwoman, is still treated like this.

    Then why is batman is very little used by without dc company backing by independent authors , while the superman and wonder woman are in various forms?The success of Characters based on superman and wonderwoman in the eastern markets speaks for themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Truncated
    That's just your prejudice. Just because you see malice in something, doesn't mean it actually exists. I compared it, superman symbol and the cross with swastika because it is relevant and it's basically me comparing it to apple logo or google one. I can't use those cause, there are still people who have no idea about it. Swastika on the other hand can be identified by most and it wasn't because of the germens either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Truncated
    Since, taking quantifiable evidence isn't possible. Taking sample sizes is more than enough. For that i had provided links before. Another, Batman require you to know the meaning of what a bat is in english. While super is word that's spread around and people have more familiarity with that word. People also have innate ideas of what a strongman is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Truncated
    Bat-symbol would only mean blackblot or just a bat for many around the world. Again, The s in that format is accompanied by the strongman design of superman which people have more idea of about or atthe very least laugh at. S has far pentrated to rural areas where the Bat-symbol hasn't.

  11. #71
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Precisely the point, wearing black or running around in the dark is only commonality between batman and a ninja. If batman is a ninja so Is zorro. Regardless of how many martial arts he "knows".i would argue that treating the character like what he is more universal, a detective with combat skills.
    You might be able to better argue that Superman's exploits disqualify him as a journalist. Batman has been explicitly trained in ninjutsu. In some sources, like the DK trilogy, it's arguably his only training. He's just as much of a detective, and more superhero than either of those given his skill set and the events of his operation, but "ninja" is and has been a prominent part of his appeal for at least 30 years now.

    Actually superman becoming a samurai is very possible.Especially, if batman can become a ninja. You don't have to be strictly born into it to be one, from what i have read. Just need competence with a sword and loyalty to a master and mission. That's it. Regardless though it would be changing the concept of the Superman character.
    Superman's status quo is virtually impenetrable. No matter what you do, like make him a TV star for over a decade, people will remember that he's secretly the mild reporter. But we'll never stop having one offs like the Shogun of Steel


    Batman changed its very concept for fitting into a culture or atleast used it as marketing tactic.
    The poll is impressive because Batman is so uniquely good at morphing for demographics. When casuals would swear that the Adam West version was really him, the Bill Murray movie could have probably landed successfully and brought the comics back to the old "new look" stuff. I really don't doubt that the idea was valid even though the stars were all lined up for the darker post crisis Batman. Meanwhile the difference between Adventures of Reeves and the early 90s Superboy wasn't so big. Superman has been a specific composite for so long that I'd think people would get bored if it even appealed to them in the first place.
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  12. #72
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    it's quite debatable between those three superheroes. To me Spiderman and Batman kind of battle it out for the top spot with Superman being a solid third. But that can fluctuate depending on the year and who has a movie in theaters at the time. To me the sheer number of Batman and Spiderman movies lets you know who Marvel and DC think are their most popular franchises. It's not that Superman is a bad character he's just a lot harder to get right. He's also a lot harder to make spinoff characters off of, which makes his franchise seem a lot smaller then Batman's.
    Interesting video, thanks for sharing.

    Guess being a Superman fan has me feeling like a dinosaur.


  13. #73
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    It's not you, it's the children who are wrong!



    Sorry, another Simpsons quote felt appropriate.

    But really, there's nothing wrong with Superman. The issues are largely just in how DC has handled him and the fact that their mistreatment has gone on long enough to impact the larger media stuff. And sure, today's more cynical edged outlook isn't a environment where you'd expect Clark to thrive, but he's outlived grim and dark days before, and will again.

    And at some point, DC will remember how to handle the character, and society will be reminded why he endures.
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  14. #74
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Here's the thing with Superman: sales don't equal popularity. Why? One, because his company doesn't know what they're doing, but Two: he's larger than an intellectual property.

    As Ascended said, he's much more akin to Sherlock Holmes. He's a piece of the larger social consciousness, in a way that even Batman isn't (at least not to the same degree). Part of it is that he sparked the birth of a massively popular sub-genre at a specific time when there wasn't a lot else to compete with. And that rocketed (see what I did there) him to a status that even an on-the-nose attempt like "Captain America" couldn't grasp: a pseudo-symbol of the world/self image of America (or at least the better natures thereof) or what became "Americana." And that's only ever grown and hardened over time.

    In many ways, he's similar to Elvis Presley. Are there artists who sell boatloads more stuff than he does currently? Absolutely. But, in many ways, he's still a huge social presence (not like he was even one decade back, but then - of course - he's not creating new content like Superman is). He's still a "bar" that people get compared to. And there's imagery that, much like Superman, you don't even need to exactly replicate for people to know exactly who you're referencing. He's also got the problem of a few IP holders not quite knowing what to do with him, so there's also that... lol

    Point being, all of this still has a big role to play in people's minds. So there are countless people who aren't big comics or super-hero fans - but many of those folks will tell you they like Superman. Because that's the power of being larger than just an IP. And while that's not "I buy everything of it I see" type of popularity, it's still a popularity - just of a different sort than we normally think of.
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  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    He was my favorite as a kid and is my second favorite today so I'm not surprised he won the vote. Sups has universal appeal.
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