DC June 2020 Solicitations

[Menacer]

Dude. The evidence is the fact of them erasing Lois and Clark's marriage in the first place during the New 52. If they hadn't have done that and then ultimately had to bring back Pre-Flashpoint Superman who had had Jon with Lois during and after Convergence, it wouldn't have been so convoluted. It would have been much simpler if, before they decided to flush Lois and Clark's entire history as a couple down the drain, they had thought "huh, maybe let's just let Lois get pregnant."

I was never kean on lois and clarks marriage. Not to say I haven't enjoyed stories.

Personally loved the new 52 superman and wonder woman romance.

Tho when DC decided to reboot for Rebirth I loved the lead In from earth 2 vol 1-5 ... the final days of superman, convergence and finally lois and Clark superman... and the many ac volumes until reborn were so exciting discovering why there were two Clark's.


Why would you want a simple straight forward storyline....

I much prefer the "convoluted" story. its exciting and interesting opposed to well umm some boring alternative. ...

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That's not evidence of anything, it is in fact completely irrelevant. Erasing the marriage then bringing it back 5 years later hampered absolutely nothing whatsoever when it came to any idea of giving those versions a child. Of course they could have just had Lois get pregnant pre-FP, but they didn't. In all that time there was an edict against it and the New 52 wasn't just around the corner as far back as 1996 when they were married in the first place. They just didn't want it. They deliberately acted against it back then in fact and again, based on that 10+ year stance there's little evidence to suggest that just giving them a baby at some point would have been accepted as a pitch even without the reboot. Something changed, and it wasn't the reboot as it affected very little to the versions they brought back in the scheme of things. As it turned out it was basically like they were on a hiatus. So what changed? The most likely answer is the pitch to make the kid immediately ten and pair him up with Robin. And its that, the auto-10 route, that creates and snowballs the convolution. That's the catalyst and key to all the nonsense: fitting a ten year old into a canon in which he did not exist before. The reboot and then undoing it created no limitations to the possibility of just having Lois get pregnant real-time. They could have easily had a baby after they took their place back in the canon and the history was restored. But then Damian wouldn't have his playmate. The very idea at its base was convoluted of its own independent volition.

In any case if I recall correctly we've gone through this same dance before, and it'll just end up the same so it might as well end now for the sake of thread. Agree to disagree.

I can't speak to them not wanting Lois and Clark to have a child in the 90s. But the fact is that, yes, erasing their marriage only made things more convoluted. Without that, there wouldn't have been the need to literally bring back the pre-Flashpoint version into the post-Flashpoint DCU and then replace the New 52 version with the Pre-Flashpoint version and so on...

If they'd just not rebooted, they could have brought about Jon organically because, obviously, something changed between the days when they didn't want a child for Lois and Clark and Rebirth. I mean, those were just the facts of the situation. But, yeah, agree to disagree.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I was never kean on lois and clarks marriage. Not to say I haven't enjoyed stories.

Personally loved the new 52 superman and wonder woman romance.

Tho when DC decided to reboot for Rebirth I loved the lead In from earth 2 vol 1-5 ... the final days of superman, convergence and finally lois and Clark superman... and the many ac volumes until reborn were so exciting discovering why there were two Clark's.


Why would you want a simple straight forward storyline....

I much prefer the "convoluted" story. its exciting and interesting opposed to well umm some boring alternative. ...

Well, I didn't really raise the original complaint. However, there's no arguing that, yes, it was confusing and the constant rebooting alienates readers.

[Menacer]

Well, I'm didn't really raise the original complaint. However, there's no arguing that, yes, it was confusing and the constant rebooting alienates readers.

You are probably right that it scares people off... comics in general are extremely confusing .... what follows what... what books I need to understand this new arc...

But frankly I love it... it's like I'm constantly discovering all these story trails and I love looking up reading orders and genuinely discovering the story often in both directions... working my way back trying to learn what happened and looking forward to what stories come after...


And honestly it should never be daunting to a new fan.

Pick out a book that interest you. Read it. If you enjoy it do a little research and see what proceeded it or ask on a forum...

But yah loads of people want to have things very clear and simple..
... and that's why the reboots take place actually...

It helps reset volume numbers and allow entry points..


Frankly it work for me since new 52 was my entry point and once I was hooked I've now covered stories from 1985 thru to 2019, and have already ordered volumes coming out in 2020...

Doubt I'll ever be a floppy collector but I've collected hundreds of books in only 4 years or so...


Comics aren't like Harry Potter... just s half dozen so books and ur done. Comics offer 50000 books over the last 80 years...

I love know no matter how fast I read I'll never collect the whole multiverse...

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You are probably right that it scares people off... comics in general are extremely confusing .... what follows what... what books I need to understand this new arc...

But frankly I love it... it's like I'm constantly discovering all these story trails and I love looking up reading orders and genuinely discovering the story often in both directions... working my way back trying to learn what happened and looking forward to what stories come after...

Yeah, but there's a difference between a long and "daunting" continuity and constant retcons, reboots, and rewriting of that continuity that makes readers unsure of which version of the character they're even reading. The Post-Crisis relaunch of the DC Universe was well-organized and adhered to a detailed outline of continuity. The New 52 had none of that. But that's a discussion for another time. The point is that we've seen two major reboots in just the past 10 years. One to "bring in new readers" and then another to fix all the crap that went down in the first one. And now, there's signs of another coming down the pipeline.

[Digifiend]

I can't speak to them not wanting Lois and Clark to have a child in the 90s. But the fact is that, yes, erasing their marriage only made things more convoluted. Without that, there wouldn't have been the need to literally bring back the pre-Flashpoint version into the post-Flashpoint DCU and then replace the New 52 version with the Pre-Flashpoint version and so on...

If they'd just not rebooted, they could have brought about Jon organically because, obviously, something changed between the days when they didn't want a child for Lois and Clark and Rebirth. I mean, those were just the facts of the situation. But, yeah, agree to disagree.

No, they couldn't. There's no way Jon could've been ten years old. At the most, he'd be three.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I mean, this is comics. They could have just found a way to artificially age him.

[Lvenger]

Just getting The Green Lantern Season Two #5 and Detective Comics #1024. I'll get Superman: City of Tomorrow Vol 2 when it releases in the UK in August but that about does it for any current DC purchases.

[Menacer]

Yeah, but there's a difference between a long and "daunting" continuity and constant retcons, reboots, and rewriting of that continuity that makes readers unsure of which version of the character they're even reading. The Post-Crisis relaunch of the DC Universe was well-organized and adhered to a detailed outline of continuity. The New 52 had none of that. But that's a discussion for another time. The point is that we've seen two major reboots in just the past 10 years. One to "bring in new readers" and then another to fix all the crap that went down in the first one. And now, there's signs of another coming down the pipeline.

I think the reality is readers, especially hardcore readers have an unfair expectation.

DC and Marvel at best have soft continuities.... they have never in the last 80 years had hard continuities...

Both dc and marvel have dozens of writers working on multiple books... its unreasonable to believe 52 books are all gonna line up... its never happened before in history has it?

Personally if you want everything to line up even say in a movie series, or book series your gonna have a bad time....

Even harry potter series with one writer over just half dozen books has major plot holes and minor ones

https://screenrant.com/harry-potter-...ver-explained/

So if one writer over 7ish books cant keep it straight how are 50 writers over 5 or 10 years going to line everything all up...

We want writers to exercise creativity and we want them to try new things...

Batman used guns at first. Superman couldnt fly, etc etc... we need change and new stories and perfect continuity be demand..
...

As if a 1985 legion of Super-heroes story has to line up exactly with a 90s or a 2010s run...

Hard continuity pushing fans will be the death of themselves and fun exciting new stories...

Even say a famous continues story like the bible is rife with inconsistencies... and bible supporters manage to make it all line up in there heads

Just my opinion

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I think the reality is readers, especially hardcore readers have an unfair expectation.

DC and Marvel at best have soft continuities.... they have never in the last 80 years had hard continuities...

Both dc and marvel have dozens of writers working on multiple books... its unreasonable to believe 52 books are all gonna line up... its never happened before in history has it?

Personally if you want everything to line up even say in a movie series, or book series your gonna have a bad time....

Even harry potter series with one writer over just half dozen books has major plot holes and minor ones

https://screenrant.com/harry-potter-...ver-explained/

So if one writer over 7ish books cant keep it straight how are 50 writers over 5 or 10 years going to line everything all up...

We want writers to exercise creativity and we want them to try new things...

Batman used guns at first. Superman couldnt fly, etc etc... we need change and new stories and perfect continuity be demand..
...

As if a 1985 legion of Super-heroes story has to line up exactly with a 90s or a 2010s run...

Hard continuity pushing fans will be the death of themselves and fun exciting new stories...

Even say a famous continues story like the bible is rife with inconsistencies... and bible supporters manage to make it all line up in there heads

Just my opinion

Nobody is saying there has to be a hard continuity. What I'm saying is that constantly rebooting and changing and restarting the continuity in such drastic ways leads to nothing but confusion. Marvel has a soft continuity. They also have it in a way that they've never really rebooted and there are definite versions of their most popular characters. DC has rebooted and changed their characters so often that following along can be a gigantic pain.

[Menacer]

Nobody is saying there has to be a hard continuity.

Granted I've only been active on these forums for a short time...

But from what I've read its often that the last 10 years have comics have sucked

And

Nothing lines up...

These are most frequently the types of complaints I've read...

That was literally what your response was above... wasnt it...

I own dozens of new 52 books and rebirth books. Granted mostly superman, but also flash, wonder woman, justice league, Batman etc...

Does it all line up? Umm really i have no idea, I read to find the plot points that connect and tend to ignore contradictions or wait to see if the story will spell things out for me...

I also own books from the 80s, 90s, 2000, ... they all have issues and things I could pick on... I tend just to focus on stuff I do like...

There are cbr users, there are also a host of what appear to be really miserable "fans" who cant seem to find good books in the last 10 or more years... the nostalgia fan... been reading for so long and have gotten older... and now all the new stuff sucks... common sign of growing older...

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Granted I've only been active on these forums for a short time...

But from what I've read its often that the last 10 years have comics have sucked

And

Nothing lines up...

These are most frequently the types of complaints I've read...

That was literally what your response was above... wasnt it...

I own dozens of new 52 books and rebirth books. Granted mostly superman, but also flash, wonder woman, justice league, Batman etc...

Does it all line up? Umm really i have no idea, I read to find the plot points that connect and tend to ignore contradictions or wait to see if the story will spell things out for me...

I also own books from the 80s, 90s, 2000, ... they all have issues and things I could pick on... I tend just to focus on stuff I do like...

There are cbr users, there are also a host of what appear to be really miserable "fans" who cant seem to find good books in the last 10 or more years... the nostalgia fan... been reading for so long and have gotten older... and now all the new stuff sucks... common sign of growing older...

Again, as I said:

What I'm saying is that constantly rebooting and changing and restarting the continuity in such drastic ways leads to nothing but confusion. Marvel has a soft continuity. They also have it in a way that they've never really rebooted and there are definite versions of their most popular characters. DC has rebooted and changed their characters so often that following along can be a gigantic pain.

[Menacer]

Again, as I said:

Again maybe you are right. Maybe it is "to confusing"

Batman has been on film in major motion picture since 66...

Here is the full list of film and tv

Batman (1943)
Batman and Robin (1949)
Batman (1966)
Batman (1989)
Batman Returns (1992)
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm (1993)
Batman Forever (1995)
Batman & Robin (1997)
Batman Begins (2005)
The Dark Knight (2008)
The Dark Knight Rises (2012)
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)
Suicide Squad (2016)
The Lego Batman Movie (2017)
Justice League (2017)
Joker (2019)
The Batman (2021

Even in the Tim Burton series 89 to Returns are dramatically different styles...

Is the Batman film history to confusing for fans? We're on our 5th or 6th reboot now......

The reboots rebreath new life into the movies.


The reboots breath new life into dc and its characters...

Are comics really to confusing? I mean maybe to a completionist...

Otherwise just go down, buy a book and read... even books that heavily reference past stories and events can nearly always be understood within the context of the story...

80 years and 55000 issues its gonna be 'confusing ' no matter what...

If your new you just pick a story and go from there. You dont need some magical starting point...

And If your a long time reader chasing down the origins and references are huge part of the fun.

But I get it, you disagree with me.

That's fine. I think you are incorrect.

And you think I'm wrong.

Fact is people arent reading comics cause its 'to confusing'

They arent reading cause they read manga or normal books... or just like watching tv...



Average American only reads 4 books per year... my girlfriend would be lucky to read 1 book a year...

My guess is many people just dont read and that is why comics, and other book media are dying out...

Not cause it's to confusing

And as far as dc. Or marvel... marvel has had big film success for 20 years. Making the brand more popular.

Dc has up hill battle. If they can make a popular film line they will draw in new readers.

I was four when I remember watching batman 89 and superman with Reeves...

Those films are what cemented me as a future comic reader...

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Again maybe you are right. Maybe it is "to confusing"

Batman has been on film in major motion picture since 66...

Here is the full list of film and tv

Batman (1943)
Batman and Robin (1949)
Batman (1966)
Batman (1989)
Batman Returns (1992)
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm (1993)
Batman Forever (1995)
Batman & Robin (1997)
Batman Begins (2005)
The Dark Knight (2008)
The Dark Knight Rises (2012)
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)
Suicide Squad (2016)
The Lego Batman Movie (2017)
Justice League (2017)
Joker (2019)
The Batman (2021

Even in the Tim Burton series 89 to Returns are dramatically different styles...

Is the Batman film history to confusing for fans? We're on our 5th or 6th reboot now......

The reboots rebreath new life into the movies.


The reboots breath new life into dc and its characters...

Are comics really to confusing? I mean maybe to a completionist...

Otherwise just go down, buy a book and read... even books that heavily reference past stories and events can nearly always be understood within the context of the story...

80 years and 55000 issues its gonna be 'confusing ' no matter what...

If your new you just pick a story and go from there. You dont need some magical starting point...

And If your a long time reader chasing down the origins and references are huge part of the fun.

But I get it, you disagree with me.

That's fine. I think you are incorrect.

And you think I'm wrong.

Fact is people arent reading comics cause its 'to confusing'

They arent reading cause they read manga or normal books... or just like watching tv...



Average American only reads 4 books per year... my girlfriend would be lucky to read 1 book a year...

My guess is many people just dont read and that is why comics, and other book media are dying out...

Not cause it's to confusing

And as far as dc. Or marvel... marvel has had big film success for 20 years. Making the brand more popular.

Dc has up hill battle. If they can make a popular film line they will draw in new readers.

I was four when I remember watching batman 89 and superman with Reeves...

Those films are what cemented me as a future comic reader...

The films and the comics are two drastically different mediums. Firstly, actors age. I'm pretty sure Michael Keaton couldn't play Batman today. Therefore, there's an actual need to reboot films. Fictional characters, however, don't age UNLESS a writer wants them to. Pretty sure Stanley Kowalski has stayed the exact same age he was in 1947. Likewise, Peter Parker has only aged about 10 years in the near 60 years since his debut. With literary characters, there's an expectation that the character you read about should be the same character they debuted as. If I pick up To Kill a Mockingbird, I expect to read about the same Atticus Finch and Boo Radley who were originally published when the book came out.

Likewise, if people pick up a Captain America comic, they are technically reading about the very same Cap who debuted in 1941. Albeit, one written with modern sensibilities. And you know what? Marvel not only sells with that model, they frequently outdo the competition. DC meanwhile drives off readers with confusing and muddled reboots that make you uncertain which character you're reading about.

And yes, the confusing-ness of it has been cited by people as a reason for not getting into comics.

[Menacer]

there's an expectation that the character you read about should be the same character they debuted as.

Huh? I would argue this is absolutely and completely false.

Batman and robin debuted... and I'd argue they have gone through dozens and dozens and dozens of writers and artists and each iteration has been minimally and drastically different. You cant read a comic from 1950s or 1960s and say batman is characterized the same... I mean even Batman from Synders work compared to Kings work feels dramatically different...

Same is true for how characters are drawn and physically portrayed. As artists change so does the costumes and size and physical... one google search and you would see dramatic changes in all your favorite characters...

Using To Kill a Mockingbird is a lousy comparison... to comic book characters... depending on the writers the characters can all behave very differently...

As for complaining the books are confusing... yah I don't doubt people complain... people complain about everything...

Are the books confusing? I mean if you are trying to absorb 80 years of writers and artists interpretations of characters and have it all "fit a continuity " then yah you are gonna have a really bad time.



If your willing to just pick up a volume 1 or issue 1 or pick up a writers run... you are gonna be fine.

I wasnt a reading any Teen Titans for the first 4 years I was reading. I wanted a break from my mostly Superman reading and grabbed Geoff Volume 1 of Teen Titans...

Yah it starts off with them calling it quits. Its clear from even the first few pages a lot of history exists...

But that volume to this day is a favourite book of mine and I do intend to track back and see how things got to Geoffs Volume 1... but I never felt lost, or anything. Just felt there was a rich history. I since collected volume 2 and also Titans Friends Together . That's just 3 Teen Titan books but I feel so connected to the characters and am happy to go forward and go backwards with the volumes...

Just pick a book and you will be fine...

That's what's great about comics. Soft history. Volume 1 is always a great start and u can always dig around more ... but the history isnt a necessity in loving Geoffs Volume 1... it's there tho if you want more