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  1. #1
    Incredible Member tib2d2's Avatar
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    Default Reading the Kylo Ren series just makes me mad at the sequel Trilogy

    How hard would it have been to include even just 10% of the Knights of Ren background? Or even a just a LITTLE bit more of Ben's path to the dark side?

    It was already established that flashbacks were being used in these movies, why not something more?

    UGH, just mad at the thought how much better those movies could have been.

    Anyway, loving the series.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Xalfrea's Avatar
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    While I've made peace with the ST, what's irritating is this clear regression to what happened previously: story misalignment. This issue of things not syncing up, creators and story group not being on the same page, this is what really caused issues in the latter years of Legends, and it's evident when it comes to all the post-ROTJ material of the new canon that has anything to do with Skywalkers.

    Some may argue that ultimately movies take priority, but in a franchise this nebulous and has always been reliant on secondary material for things to completely make sense, it's just not feasible, especially these days when the Internet will lovingly crap all over anything with clickbait garbage, spoilers, etc. It is my experience that people nowadays are less tolerant towards material that is NOT movies and is explained in tweets, print material, deleted scenes etc.

  3. #3
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    It probably could've been avoided with the Duel of the Fates script seeing as I don't think that had too many contradictions or surprises depending on how you took Tor Valum. But a creative team that couldn't sync with Lucasfilm hot off the heels of what caused SOLO to "fail" and I don't doubt something like this could happen. It seems the script for TROS was made within a year and while that's fine to get a movie out there, there's a lot more moving parts to this than just a movie. Had it only been TROS and no other Sequel trilogy content and we could've sorted this out later but we have a bunch of new information that we now have to twist and bend over backwards to justify. Some of it works, some of it doesn't.

    I know a lot of us crap on Lucasfilm and Disney for not having a game-plan, but if Colin was removed in 2017 then Duel of the Fates was what TLJ was leading to. I'm not sure if the Duel script would've worked for everyone but it seems more in line with the progression of events and didn't try to undo itself.
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  4. #4
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Pretty much all the movies are vague on certain details that are sometimes expanded on the EU. A lot of Jedi,Sith and Mandalorian lore for example (In both the old Legends and Disney canon).
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tib2d2 View Post
    How hard would it have been to include even just 10% of the Knights of Ren background? Or even a just a LITTLE bit more of Ben's path to the dark side?

    It was already established that flashbacks were being used in these movies, why not something more?

    UGH, just mad at the thought how much better those movies could have been.

    Anyway, loving the series.
    Welcome to the party that Rey, Finn, Luke and Leia fans have been having for the past couple of years.

    And this is an interesting counterpoint thread to the other one we have about the series...

    I thinks it’s not included because Abrams and co. felt their main priority should remain with Rey as the clear and unopposed main character, so either they never thought Ben and the KoR needed this level or backstory on film, or alternatively knew he *did* need it, but felt that giving him that would overwhelmed Rey’s story and make it more Ben/Kylo’s film.

    The comic existing in the first place kind of shows the needle they are trying to thread with the character - treat him with the gravitas and dramatic value that Ben Solo was said to possess in TROS to justify him taking Finn’s place as the male lead, getting kissed by Rey, being worth the deaths of both parents and the failure of Luke’s Jedi Order, and the loss of Kylo Ren as the main villain with the return of Palpatine... but still be a supporting character to Rey, and to have her story be at the center of the ST’s attention and the main conflict reflected through her view of it, not Kylo/Ben’s.

    So Ben/Kylo gets the entire tie-in comic released at the same time to establish his story (and white wash him for the Jedi Temple massacre)... but Rey’s the only one getting flashbacks to explain her origins in TROS.

    To me, this mostly just reflects and imbalance that TLJ inflicted on the ST - it undercut and failed Rey’s story so hard, and dismissed Finn’s importance to the ST’s success so casually, that Kylo wound up becoming the biggest asset of the ST - which he was never supposed to be, was not written for, and now unfortunately posed a threat to Rey’s story as well. Rey was *supposed* to be the new Luke Skywalker, Finn was supposed to be the male lead, and Kylo was supposed to be an intriguing villain. TLJ made Rey half the protagonist with Kylo, who it felt was already super sympathetic when all it had added to his murder is past was him whining that “Luke started it!” all while shoving Finn into an ancillary role.

    I mean, *I’m* annoyed that LFL has Marvel putting Charles Soule, one of their better writers, onto a project tying into TROS that will feature one single appearance of pre-teen Rey, and absolutely nothing for child slave soldier Finn, not tackle anything of substance regarding Palpatine’s death, and all mostly to try and make a five minute improv performance by Adam Driver at the end of TROS as Ben more palatable to people who can’t forget he was a mass murdering school shooter... largely by removing the “school shooter” part but doing nothing for the mass murder bit.

    But TLJ was the film that came in and said “Kylo is the only Skywalker, it’s totally natural to think that he’s believably sympathetic enough for Rey to care about him and for the audience to not hate him, and he’s the character we’ve given the only really interesting progression to in the story.”

    So after TLJ, LFL could either make the TLJ sequel where Kylo is just a bad guy and the Skywalkers die, or reject that trajectory and go for the opposite in some way, even if the script wasn’t set up for that at all and Rey desperately needed something to help her remain the main character above him. And either way, Finn was already screwed out of his position and importance.

    It was an untenable objective from the start. Kylo/Ben wasn’t built for that kind of weight, not if he was to fulfill the role of being Rey’s supporting character at the same time.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by tib2d2 View Post
    How hard would it have been to include even just 10% of the Knights of Ren background? Or even a just a LITTLE bit more of Ben's path to the dark side?

    It was already established that flashbacks were being used in these movies, why not something more?

    UGH, just mad at the thought how much better those movies could have been.

    Anyway, loving the series.
    I loved the first two films but for some reason (the financial one) Disney Lucasfilm prefer to hold back much of Kylo/Ben's story for comics. As a long time comic fan it's fine for me, but unfair for people to have to splash out on extra material in order to get the full story.
    The success of this series shows once again what jerks DLF are to kill off the STs most interesting and popular character. They could have made a fortune from an ongoing series set post TROS.
    Wasted opportunity, but it's their own fault.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Xalfrea's Avatar
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    Depending on how invested you are in Star Wars, it can be OK when some stuff is left out and relegated for books because of various reasons, like making the movie too long or not being relevant to the main story.

    For example, Phasma, the cool looking wasted Red Zaku Stormtrooper. Backstory is not seen in the movie, but in her own book. Some feel that this backstory should've been in the film to at least not make Phasma a waste. I'm of the opinion that it didn't need to be because Phasma was not relevant to the overall story. If she's irrelevant it's only because the movie didn't utilize her right. If she was a major character that appeared throughout it to haunt the heroes or be setup as a major rival, yeah then some of the backstory could've been included.

    The backstory of Kylo Ren, the Knights of Ren, how he turned? Yeah, at the very least some of that should've been in the film because he's the primary villain. Now backstories don't get included usually because the filmmakers want it to be left up to the viewers imagination, but that doesn't work for Star Wars because it's more than just films. And in this Internet age when people are less tolerant of supplementary or secondary material, clickbait is the norm, and spoiler culture is everywhere, then it goes back to my point that film's writers and the overall Star Wars story group should've worked much more in sync to make things line up.

  8. #8
    iMan 42s
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    I find it kind of ironic that the Knights of Ren got cut in favor of the Praetorian Guard seeing as they'd get killed in the fight and you don't want to waste the next guy's stuff. But I don't think the other script used them nor did TROS really give much a shit about them either. Then to find out it's this dark side themed gang..., well that could've gone better.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xalfrea View Post
    Depending on how invested you are in Star Wars, it can be OK when some stuff is left out and relegated for books because of various reasons, like making the movie too long or not being relevant to the main story.

    For example, Phasma, the cool looking wasted Red Zaku Stormtrooper. Backstory is not seen in the movie, but in her own book. Some feel that this backstory should've been in the film to at least not make Phasma a waste. I'm of the opinion that it didn't need to be because Phasma was not relevant to the overall story. If she's irrelevant it's only because the movie didn't utilize her right. If she was a major character that appeared throughout it to haunt the heroes or be setup as a major rival, yeah then some of the backstory could've been included.

    The backstory of Kylo Ren, the Knights of Ren, how he turned? Yeah, at the very least some of that should've been in the film because he's the primary villain. Now backstories don't get included usually because the filmmakers want it to be left up to the viewers imagination, but that doesn't work for Star Wars because it's more than just films. And in this Internet age when people are less tolerant of supplementary or secondary material, clickbait is the norm, and spoiler culture is everywhere, then it goes back to my point that film's writers and the overall Star Wars story group should've worked much more in sync to make things line up.
    I feel that Phasma could have been set up that way as a rival to Finn. Rather then being a Boba Fett knockoff. I mean she was supposed to be Finn's boss's at one point right? Feel like that could've worked. You can still keep her as a coward. Have her win through underhanded means.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I feel that Phasma could have been set up that way as a rival to Finn. Rather then being a Boba Fett knockoff. I mean she was supposed to be Finn's boss's at one point right? Feel like that could've worked. You can still keep her as a coward. Have her win through underhanded means.
    I would have liked more Phasma myself as Star Wars doesn't have many female villains, but I wonder if Gwen Christie's schedule was taken up with Game of Thrones, which is why we saw so little of her in TLJ?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by motherofpearl1 View Post
    I would have liked more Phasma myself as Star Wars doesn't have many female villains, but I wonder if Gwen Christie's schedule was taken up with Game of Thrones, which is why we saw so little of her in TLJ?
    My understanding was that the only reason she came back was because the cast and crew liked working with her.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by motherofpearl1 View Post
    I would have liked more Phasma myself as Star Wars doesn't have many female villains, but I wonder if Gwen Christie's schedule was taken up with Game of Thrones, which is why we saw so little of her in TLJ?
    I don't watch Game of Thrones so I could be completely wrong here. However wouldn't Adam Driver's shcedule have had the same issues?From what I understand he plays the protagonist of that show.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I don't watch Game of Thrones so I could be completely wrong here. However wouldn't Adam Driver's shcedule have had the same issues?From what I understand he plays the protagonist of that show.
    Driver’s not a Game of Thrones actor. But he is a professional, with a career that didn’t get keep him from being in multiple movies across the release of the ST. Christie almost certainly could have been utilized more for TLJ - her role on GoT was important, but not a main one, and if Could make time for both Terminator: Genisys and Solo, Christie’s schedule wouldn’t be a real hindrance either.

    TLJ just had a thankless role expansion for her... like to did for many characters with expanded screentime.
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  14. #14
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    The film's marketing-which included a Phasma novel and comic series-did give kind of an impression we'd see more of her.


    There was also the Vanity Fair cover of her with the helmet off, although the VF photos (Mostly by Annie Lebowitz) are mostly posed for dramatic purposes regarding movies and don't necessarily reflect scenes-their TPM issue had Obi-Wan fighting Darth Maul on Tatooine for instance, and to use a more recent example, the Ach-To picture with Luke and the flaming TIE fighter includes R2-D2, who wasn't there.

    Their 2005 spread showing the cast of the two trilogies (at the time) together was also composited from several seperate photographs (and of course Yoda and Jar-Jar were CG).
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 03-19-2020 at 09:39 AM.
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  15. #15
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    It's funny but TLJ kind off left it open for her return - when never actually saw her die, she fell into the flames but her armour was made from the hull of a Star Destroyer, so she could easily have survived and reappeared in TROS, but they were cramming so many new characters into TROS I suspect they didn't have room.
    One thing that puzzled me from TROS - where was Matt Smith?

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