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  1. #31
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    101 Facts About X-Men

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    They try to attach logic to illogical hate.

    "Oh how can people like the Avengers or other super powered beings but hate the mutants."

    Which is the whole point of the X-men and the mutants in general is to be hated and feared by people. Some folks just don't understand that.
    Agreed,

    It literally happens everyday in real life with social media, daily issues such as illogical hate are accessible to the public at the tips of your fingers.

    Readers: "How could humans hate mutants if superheroes exist..."

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Agreed,

    It literally happens everyday in real life with social media, daily issues such as illogical hate are accessible to the public at the tips of your fingers.

    Readers: "How could humans hate mutants if superheroes exist..."
    I get the feeling Hickman caught the vibe and that is why we see Krakoa standing as it's own nation,with humans only allowed by invitation.

  4. #34
    Boo! From The Shadows's Avatar
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    I don't. I love them being a part of the greater Marvel mythos.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I get the feeling Hickman caught the vibe and that is why we see Krakoa standing as it's own nation,with humans only allowed by invitation.
    Yeah. The whole thing kind of gives off that vibe. It especially gives off the vibe of throwing in the towel and saying "You know what? All humans are bad." To the point of even taking the X-Men's most prominent human ally, Moira MacTaggert, and revealing she was a mutant all along (because there's no way a human could actually be <gasp> a decent person).

    You know, I'm getting a little tired of this discussion of "Why should the X-Men be separate?". It's been covered a lot. So, let's take it from the opposite angle. "Why should the X-Men be in the same universe as the MCU heroes?". And I mean reasons other than "We can see Wolverine fight the Hulk" and "Now they can all meet for schwarma".

    1) Because the X-Men have always drawn from other parts of the Marvel Universe. It's just that most of it was from Chris Claremont's lower selling titles, so people just think of it all as X-Men stuff now. Sabretooth was an Iron Fist villain. Mystique and Deathbird were Ms. Marvel villains. Adamantium first appeared in an Avengers comic. You get the gist.

    2) Because now the X-Men can exist in a pre-formed cross-genre universe. The thing about creating a separate universe based on the idea of "There are mutants here", is that every fantastical thing has a way of becoming mutants. Look at the Fox movies. Lady Deathstrike was a mutant. Juggernaut was a mutant. They started introducing aliens and killer robots toward the end, but it felt weird at that point. The MCU is a place where Lady Deathstrike being a killer cyborg or Juggernaut being a demon's mystical avatar wouldn't seem out of place. That allows for more genre stuff like the Savage Land or the Shi'ar or the Mojoverse. Which, in turn, allows for another part of the X-Men's identity as the heroes who can save the entire world for a month and still not receive the credit because of who and what they are. We also need these kinds of stories because if the X-Men are just the people who fight for mutant rights all the time and never make any headway, they kind of look like failures. So, a little distraction would alleviate that.

    3) Storm's back story seems a little less racist in a world where Thor exists. This is a very character-specific one. You guys remember in Storm's back story how she basically walks into the country of Kenya and because she can manipulate the weather they automatically start hailing her as a goddess. Doesn't it make the people of Kenya seem kind of ignorant and backwards that they went straight for the goddess explanation? Now, imagine it in a world where a storm god who even SHIELD and major news networks acknowledges is a storm god already descended and saved the world from an alien invasion. Instead of some colonial fantasy about superstitious African people, it's them saying "Well, the White people got their god. Now we have ours".

    4) It provides some substance to the MCU. One of the constant critiques of the MCU movies is that they're very rarely about anything. The exceptions being Black Panther, the last two Captain America movies and a couple of the Netflix shows. The X-Men are pretty much always about something and even when they're not doing a story that directly deals with the mutant metaphor, that subtext doesn't really go away.

    5) Because it can add complexity to the MCU in general. I guess this is kind of related to the last one. But the idea is that the superhuman situation could be more complicated for the citizens of the MCU in general. Human beings are messy, emotional beings that are capable of both great good and great evil. The MCU is a world where so far the whole superhuman situation could largely be summed up as heroes and villains with SHIELD riding herd over the whole thing. But imagine there are suddenly superhumans who don't want to put on flashy costumes and telegraph whether they're committing crimes or stopping them. Imagine that the newest tragedy to happen isn't some super-terrorist act but a 13-year old kid suddenly losing control of their plasma beam ability in the middle of third period math. You'd have a lot of people questioning a lot of things and it's a tension that could radiate out and effect the rest of the MCU.

    So, those are my reasons that the X-Men SHOULD NOT be separate from the MCU.

  6. #36
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Readers: "How could humans hate mutants if superheroes exist..."
    I always thought that argument ignored the hero part of that.

    To the average person in the marvel universe, there are two groups with powers. Superheroes and super villains.

    Now of course you're going to hate the super villains because they're villains. People don't hate them because they have powers. They hate them because they rob banks, blow up bridges, and try to take over the world.

    Nobody hates superheroes because they're heroes. They save the day. They're on our side.

    Mutants though... they're just people with powers. Ordinary everyday people, and people suck. Think about all the jerks you meet on a regular basis. Now imagine if those jerks could suddenly shoot lasers out of their eyes or blow up buildings by thinking about it. Scary ain't it?

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    I don't. I love them being a part of the greater Marvel mythos.
    never to their benefit tho

  8. #38
    All-New Member Castle's Avatar
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    There is more believability and substance to X-Men when they are in a separate universe.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    Yeah. The whole thing kind of gives off that vibe. It especially gives off the vibe of throwing in the towel and saying "You know what? All humans are bad." To the point of even taking the X-Men's most prominent human ally, Moira MacTaggert, and revealing she was a mutant all along (because there's no way a human could actually be <gasp> a decent person).

    You know, I'm getting a little tired of this discussion of "Why should the X-Men be separate?". It's been covered a lot. So, let's take it from the opposite angle. "Why should the X-Men be in the same universe as the MCU heroes?". And I mean reasons other than "We can see Wolverine fight the Hulk" and "Now they can all meet for schwarma".

    1) Because the X-Men have always drawn from other parts of the Marvel Universe. It's just that most of it was from Chris Claremont's lower selling titles, so people just think of it all as X-Men stuff now. Sabretooth was an Iron Fist villain. Mystique and Deathbird were Ms. Marvel villains. Adamantium first appeared in an Avengers comic. You get the gist.

    2) Because now the X-Men can exist in a pre-formed cross-genre universe. The thing about creating a separate universe based on the idea of "There are mutants here", is that every fantastical thing has a way of becoming mutants. Look at the Fox movies. Lady Deathstrike was a mutant. Juggernaut was a mutant. They started introducing aliens and killer robots toward the end, but it felt weird at that point. The MCU is a place where Lady Deathstrike being a killer cyborg or Juggernaut being a demon's mystical avatar wouldn't seem out of place. That allows for more genre stuff like the Savage Land or the Shi'ar or the Mojoverse. Which, in turn, allows for another part of the X-Men's identity as the heroes who can save the entire world for a month and still not receive the credit because of who and what they are. We also need these kinds of stories because if the X-Men are just the people who fight for mutant rights all the time and never make any headway, they kind of look like failures. So, a little distraction would alleviate that.

    3) Storm's back story seems a little less racist in a world where Thor exists. This is a very character-specific one. You guys remember in Storm's back story how she basically walks into the country of Kenya and because she can manipulate the weather they automatically start hailing her as a goddess. Doesn't it make the people of Kenya seem kind of ignorant and backwards that they went straight for the goddess explanation? Now, imagine it in a world where a storm god who even SHIELD and major news networks acknowledges is a storm god already descended and saved the world from an alien invasion. Instead of some colonial fantasy about superstitious African people, it's them saying "Well, the White people got their god. Now we have ours".

    4) It provides some substance to the MCU. One of the constant critiques of the MCU movies is that they're very rarely about anything. The exceptions being Black Panther, the last two Captain America movies and a couple of the Netflix shows. The X-Men are pretty much always about something and even when they're not doing a story that directly deals with the mutant metaphor, that subtext doesn't really go away.

    5) Because it can add complexity to the MCU in general. I guess this is kind of related to the last one. But the idea is that the superhuman situation could be more complicated for the citizens of the MCU in general. Human beings are messy, emotional beings that are capable of both great good and great evil. The MCU is a world where so far the whole superhuman situation could largely be summed up as heroes and villains with SHIELD riding herd over the whole thing. But imagine there are suddenly superhumans who don't want to put on flashy costumes and telegraph whether they're committing crimes or stopping them. Imagine that the newest tragedy to happen isn't some super-terrorist act but a 13-year old kid suddenly losing control of their plasma beam ability in the middle of third period math. You'd have a lot of people questioning a lot of things and it's a tension that could radiate out and effect the rest of the MCU.

    So, those are my reasons that the X-Men SHOULD NOT be separate from the MCU.
    I like your reasoning. I would add that as of the last released MCU production, the Avengers are effectively disbanded or decommissioned due to the deaths, retirements, or permanent injury of their most prominent members, and the events of Age of Ultron and Civil War before that likely tarnished the Avengers somewhat in both the eyes of the government and the general public. In the government's case, if The Falcon + The Winter Soldier is anything to go by, its plan starts with making/selecting its own Captain America that will toe the line and follow orders like a good soldier, and if mutants are to be thrown into that mix, the government could use its new Captain America as the focal point of a "New Avengers" squadron that will go along with the government's efforts to "neutralize" the threat it believes mutants pose to human society, regardless of individual mutants' actions or morality. Like you say, that can add some serious complexity to the MCU, in that there is a team of superhumans with the Avengers brand and government sanction going after mutants, amplifying and even seeming to justify whatever fear and hate of mutants is beginning to manifest among the public, which will force the surviving Avengers from the previous movies to decide where they stand on that issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I always thought that argument ignored the hero part of that.

    To the average person in the marvel universe, there are two groups with powers. Superheroes and super villains.

    Now of course you're going to hate the super villains because they're villains. People don't hate them because they have powers. They hate them because they rob banks, blow up bridges, and try to take over the world.

    Nobody hates superheroes because they're heroes. They save the day. They're on our side.

    Mutants though... they're just people with powers. Ordinary everyday people, and people suck. Think about all the jerks you meet on a regular basis. Now imagine if those jerks could suddenly shoot lasers out of their eyes or blow up buildings by thinking about it. Scary ain't it?
    There are plenty of non-criminals who hate superheroes, though. Off the top of my head, the reasons for that can be "normal people and their livelihoods and neighborhoods end up being collateral damage every time a superhero gets into it with a supervillain," which would understandably sour regular people on the existence of superheroes, or in the eyes of members and supporters of law enforcement, "superheroes" are unlicensed vigilantes who nonetheless get more praise, attention, and credit from the public than they "actually" deserve. Then there's the argument posited by some, both in-universe and in real life, that organized superheroes really serve their own interests and agendas and don't actually care about the general public that they purport to protect, and depending on the actions of at least some superheroes, they might not be entirely wrong. There's also the recurrent idea that superpowered individuals who wish to fight crime and terrorism and other evils with their abilities should be regulated, or at least formally deputized, by the government or government-aligned agencies so they can be "held accountable" if they mess up in a way that costs innocent lives or causes excessive property damage, the same way a "regular" law enforcement officer would be.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #40
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    As long as they can still do an R-rated X-Force movie, I’m good. If they want to keep the R-rated stuff (Deadpool, Blade, X-Force, etc.) more self contained, and therefore big guns like Wolverine won’t be in it, so be it. I’d rather see a hardcore, R-rated X-Force with Cable, Domino, Deadpool, etc., and no Logan than a watered down version with him.

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