View Poll Results: Who has the potential to achieve A-list status?

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  • Aztek

    6 6.59%
  • Black Condor

    1 1.10%
  • Black Orchid

    3 3.30%
  • Blue Beetle

    58 63.74%
  • El Diablo

    4 4.40%
  • El Dorado

    4 4.40%
  • Engineer

    4 4.40%
  • Fire

    11 12.09%
  • Firebrand

    0 0%
  • Jessica Cruz

    34 37.36%
  • Kyle Rayner

    22 24.18%
  • Renee Montoya

    17 18.68%
  • Sideways

    9 9.89%
  • Vibe

    16 17.58%
  • Other

    7 7.69%
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    Yeah that guy, though his CW version whom I like way better. He is a cool character but I feel heís best used as a support character/ team player than a solo act. I donít think it helps Vibeís cause that he has competition from Sideways (nearly identical power sets but Derek has a cooler look).
    The CW version doesn't really have any resemblance with the original comics version (I never read the new 52 version) apart from the name.
    And the original comics version is just completely terrible.

  2. #62
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Going by the poll, the takeaway is that the characters who have received the most push, especially in other media, are viewed as the most viable, AKA Jaime and Jessica.

    Bottomline: Anyone can be A-List if they get enough exposure and effort behind them.

  3. #63
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Going by the poll, the takeaway is that the characters who have received the most push, especially in other media, are viewed as the most viable, AKA Jaime and Jessica.

    Bottomline: Anyone can be A-List if they get enough exposure and effort behind them.
    Ehhhh.... close but I don't know about that one.

    >_> Looks at Cyborg.

    Theres a lot of characters that are only going to be mentions but never really in the conversation for what A-list is.

    So theres a lot of space between being "Pushed" and begin "Well recieved" or "Liked".

    Carol Danvers is probably on that list as well they push and they push and they push and she's not REALLY who people think of when they say "The Avengers" she's still behind Black Widow and Scarlet Witch as far as notability.

    Being infamous isn't honestly the same as being famous.

    So you need more than just exposed and a effort. Though I will yield that the operative in your statement might be "Enough"

    People do remember that Milestone wasn't just black characters (or even black creators), right? They had books for characters of different backgrounds.
    The Mighty Avengers had Ava Ayala who was latina and She-Hulk who was white (please avoid making the obvious jokes). It wasn't just one race.
    I don't care.
    I'd already corrected myself in saying thats not whats needed to become a-list.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Jaime Reyes does it. He pushes the boundary of being an a-lister. Strong, Varied Powers, Great back story, implications in the wider universe.
    I enjoy him and buy his books when they come out.

    The only problem with Jaime is that he's a teen hero. DC is very apt to do odd things when it comes to their teen heroes, like forget they exist.

    He should keep being used but did anyone read the Infected story? The batman who laughs infects jaime, and I don't like the art and I don't think he's served well being
    another person pulled into the worst villains schemes.
    I guess what I'm trying to say there is hes' got star power but D.C. hasn't used it well for a long while.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  4. #64
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    People do remember that Milestone wasn't just black characters (or even black creators), right? They had books for characters of different backgrounds.
    Of course we remember. Milestone wasn't just "black" comics, there were people of all kinds of backgrounds and orientations and everything else and those comics were for everybody. But Milestone *was* minority-majority and it's biggest characters were African American (or black passing, in the case of Icon).

    We're mostly just kinda using it for shorthand to describe the kind of effort characters need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Ehhhh.... close but I don't know about that one.

    >_> Looks at Cyborg.

    Theres a lot of characters that are only going to be mentions but never really in the conversation for what A-list is.

    So theres a lot of space between being "Pushed" and begin "Well recieved" or "Liked".
    Carol's a great example; pushed hard by Marvel and treated like an A-lister by creators but....not entirely seen as one in the eyes of fans. I've watched that push unfold with interest; can a publisher "swim upstream" like that and pull it off? How does the character's profile among the general public (watching the movies, the cartoons, etc) compare to the LCS crowd? I feel like Carol might end up being an A-lister despite the fans, not because of them. It's been interesting to watch.

    Cyborg's a different story. He got "pushed" but not really. It was very halfassed. DC seemed to think that just putting Vic on the League would make him a big deal, but failed to actually treat him like it. And of course, they keep trying to force him into a status quo he had already outgrown years ago (like all the NTT) and that sure as hell doesn't help; he'd already evolved beyond the "man or machine" angst and no one wants a repeat of that character arc.

    Jaime on the other hand, I feel like DC did actually put some degree of effort in. Jaime's had a few different solo's, plus that short lived Threshold book from the New52, he's been on teams, he's been in events, and has a bunch of larger media appearances under his belt. But LCS fans just don't respond to him. I think Jaime is one of those characters like Ms. Marvel or Moon Girl; he can't sell for crap in the direct market but would likely do very well through Scholastic or YA OGN's or a proper digital book. I think Jaime could be A-list everywhere but the hobby shop, but if he becomes A-list everywhere else, the hobby shop will eventually fall in line too. Give him a good movie or two, and people will start looking at him differently.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I've watched that push unfold with interest; can a publisher "swim upstream" like that and pull it off?
    I have actually the impression that if a new character becomes popular that most of the time a lucky accident, just look at Harley Quinn and Jason Todd (and to some degree even Damian Wayne), where it took DC years to figure out what to do with these characters.

    While I'm not really sure if pushing a character ever really worked.

  6. #66
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I have actually the impression that if a new character becomes popular that most of the time a lucky accident, just look at Harley Quinn and Jason Todd (and to some degree even Damian Wayne), where it took DC years to figure out what to do with these characters.

    While I'm not really sure if pushing a character ever really worked.
    Exactly. That's what's interesting about these artificial pushes, like with Carol. Can she truly reach the A-list simply because Marvel says so? How long does Marvel push before deciding it wont happen no matter how many events Carol headlines?
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The CW version doesn't really have any resemblance with the original comics version (I never read the new 52 version) apart from the name.
    And the original comics version is just completely terrible.
    While the CW version of Vibe is based more off of The New 52 version the CW version is still different from The New 52 version and can come off as little bit lame at times for me.

    I think The New 52 version is truly the best version and I highly recommend his title.
    Last edited by docmidnite; 03-28-2020 at 02:32 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Carol's a great example; pushed hard by Marvel and treated like an A-lister by creators but....not entirely seen as one in the eyes of fans. I've watched that push unfold with interest; can a publisher "swim upstream" like that and pull it off? How does the character's profile among the general public (watching the movies, the cartoons, etc) compare to the LCS crowd? I feel like Carol might end up being an A-lister despite the fans, not because of them. It's been interesting to watch.

    Cyborg's a different story. He got "pushed" but not really. It was very halfassed. DC seemed to think that just putting Vic on the League would make him a big deal, but failed to actually treat him like it. And of course, they keep trying to force him into a status quo he had already outgrown years ago (like all the NTT) and that sure as hell doesn't help; he'd already evolved beyond the "man or machine" angst and no one wants a repeat of that character arc.

    Jaime on the other hand, I feel like DC did actually put some degree of effort in. Jaime's had a few different solo's, plus that short lived Threshold book from the New52, he's been on teams, he's been in events, and has a bunch of larger media appearances under his belt. But LCS fans just don't respond to him. I think Jaime is one of those characters like Ms. Marvel or Moon Girl; he can't sell for crap in the direct market but would likely do very well through Scholastic or YA OGN's or a proper digital book. I think Jaime could be A-list everywhere but the hobby shop, but if he becomes A-list everywhere else, the hobby shop will eventually fall in line too. Give him a good movie or two, and people will start looking at him differently.
    @ bolded part: Kamala's debut volume did great in the direct market, especially digital. The problems started once G. Willow Wilson left the book (though she too started losing her own lustre towards the end of her run).

    Agree about Cyborg being pushed in the laziest way possible (and also, being half machine doesn't really make him the prime candidate for being the face of DC's black superheroes).

    As for Carol, I think it's safe to say that where the comics failed, the MCU has already succeeded in making her an A-lister. When a character has a billion dollar plus movie under her belt, (and had a scene-stealing moment or two in the biggest film of all time), there's little to no doubt left regarding her status. The LCS crowd is irrelevant compared to the movie-going, merchandise buying masses when it comes down to sheer numbers and revenue generated.

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    @ bolded part: Kamala's debut volume did great in the direct market, especially digital. The problems started once G. Willow Wilson left the book (though she too started losing her own lustre towards the end of her run).
    Kamala did do well in the direct market initially, but that bubble burst pretty quick as I remember. Her success has largely been in the digital sphere which isn't part of the direct market. Likewise, Moon Girl and Squirrel Girl have apparently done quite well through trade and Scholastic book orders, but their floppy sales were awful.

    Actually for that matter I think Carol did pretty well in digital at first too, until the low quality of the title (from maybe volume 2 or 3 on) drove even that down.

    Agree about Cyborg being pushed in the laziest way possible (and also, being half machine doesn't really make him the prime candidate for being the face of DC's black superheroes).
    Agreed, but I suppose he was the best option DC had at the time. Lighting would've been the better choice but DC's issues with Isabella likely got in the way, and Vixen doesn't have the history. Vic has more larger media appearances than any other black character, a unique powerset, and isn't a legacy. I feel like it was as much about a lack of other viable options as it was about Vic's qualifications.

    As for Carol, I think it's safe to say that where the comics failed, the MCU has already succeeded in making her an A-lister. When a character has a billion dollar plus movie under her belt, (and had a scene-stealing moment or two in the biggest film of all time), there's little to no doubt left regarding her status. The LCS crowd is irrelevant compared to the movie-going, merchandise buying masses when it comes down to sheer numbers and revenue generated.
    And it's interesting, right? Here Carol is, selling merchandise to people who have never picked up a comic, making a billion at the box office and making people stand up and cheer in theaters during Endgame. By every metric outside of the direct market she's doing well. But in the LCS, she struggles. It's sorta fascinating, and I think an excellent example of how the direct market is out of step with everyone else. Carol's a big deal to the general audience but established comic fans are another matter. If that doesn't show the problems and flaws in the direct market and why publishers need to put real effort into other distribution, I don't know what is.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Kamala did do well in the direct market initially, but that bubble burst pretty quick as I remember. Her success has largely been in the digital sphere which isn't part of the direct market.
    I don't know how well she did initally digitally, but on the long run the digital sales were nut that impressive, the book was usually not able to get in the top 10 at comixology.

    And Digital sales make anyway only a fraction of the money that is made on the direct market.

    Maybe it did well as Trade Paper Back, but there is no easy way to get those numbers.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I suppose he was the best option DC had at the time. Lighting would've been the better choice but DC's issues with Isabella likely got in the way, and Vixen doesn't have the history. Vic has more larger media appearances than any other black character, a unique powerset, and isn't a legacy. I feel like it was as much about a lack of other viable options as it was about Vic's qualifications.
    Mister Terrific is admittedly a legacy, but that’s a case where I don’t think it actually counts against the character.

  12. #72
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I don't know how well she did initally digitally, but on the long run the digital sales were nut that impressive, the book was usually not able to get in the top 10 at comixology.

    And Digital sales make anyway only a fraction of the money that is made on the direct market.

    Maybe it did well as Trade Paper Back, but there is no easy way to get those numbers.
    I haven't followed Kamala's sales in forever, but last I knew her book was one of the more successful ones on digital. Generally that format only pulled (I think) 10-15% of direct market sales (great indicator of how publishers failed to capitalize on digital options in my opinion) but supposedly she sold better in digital than she did in the LCS.

    But like I said, that's old data and I have no idea how she's done since. Bookstores have seen some increase in business in the last few years, recovering somewhat from their previous slump, so maybe Kamala's sales have transferred over to that, or maybe she just doesnt sell like she did circa 2013-2015.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottSloane View Post
    Mister Terrific is admittedly a legacy, but that’s a case where I don’t think it actually counts against the character.
    In this case neither do I. But back in 2011 Holt was still a pretty minor character (not that he's a huge deal even now). Worthy of including in the League, but probably not big enough, nor with enough of his own mythos to draw from, to make him a good option for the "main black hero" DC was looking for.

    Today he'd probably get more consideration, but I suspect DC would be afraid of him stepping on Batman's toes.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Kamala did do well in the direct market initially, but that bubble burst pretty quick as I remember. Her success has largely been in the digital sphere which isn't part of the direct market. Likewise, Moon Girl and Squirrel Girl have apparently done quite well through trade and Scholastic book orders, but their floppy sales were awful.

    Actually for that matter I think Carol did pretty well in digital at first too, until the low quality of the title (from maybe volume 2 or 3 on) drove even that down.
    Kamala's direct market sales seemed to take a major hit after the relaunch and going into Civil War II.
    And it's interesting, right? Here Carol is, selling merchandise to people who have never picked up a comic, making a billion at the box office and making people stand up and cheer in theaters during Endgame. By every metric outside of the direct market she's doing well. But in the LCS, she struggles. It's sorta fascinating, and I think an excellent example of how the direct market is out of step with everyone else. Carol's a big deal to the general audience but established comic fans are another matter. If that doesn't show the problems and flaws in the direct market and why publishers need to put real effort into other distribution, I don't know what is.
    The current run has been doing demonstrably better by direct market standards then past volumes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    In this case neither do I. But back in 2011 Holt was still a pretty minor character (not that he's a huge deal even now). Worthy of including in the League, but probably not big enough, nor with enough of his own mythos to draw from, to make him a good option for the "main black hero" DC was looking for.

    Today he'd probably get more consideration, but I suspect DC would be afraid of him stepping on Batman's toes.
    I don't know if I'd say "minor," given he was front-and-center during Johns' JSA and that was a marquee book for DC at the time (with the legacy aspect of the character also being a major factor), but he was treated like an afterthought during the New 52.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    True, but a lot of DCís more well known characters have traditionally had trouble maintaining a solo book. Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, Hawkman, Zatanna, etc. So I really donít see Jaimeís inability to hold down a solo as a huge knock against the character.
    His next solo book should talk him over the 100+ solo issues mark so Iíd say heís doing good. Although I feel they should try something different with Jaime. Age him up and let his solo book be about his adult adventures, while his teen years/development is with the Titans or Young Justice. When he gets a solo again (likely when they announce the HBO Max series) he should also be on a team consistently interacting with other heroes. I feel like thatís what heís missing, every time he gets a push. Look over at Marvel, Khamala and Miles are constantly interacting with the rest of the MU, unlike what DC does with Jaime.
    Done with DC. Can't handle the constant whiplash! Time to go on a hiatus!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    His next solo book should talk him over the 100+ solo issues mark so Iíd say heís doing good.
    If it only last as long as his last to solo books, he will need at least two series to get there.

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