View Poll Results: Who has the potential to achieve A-list status?

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  • Aztek

    6 6.59%
  • Black Condor

    1 1.10%
  • Black Orchid

    3 3.30%
  • Blue Beetle

    58 63.74%
  • El Diablo

    4 4.40%
  • El Dorado

    4 4.40%
  • Engineer

    4 4.40%
  • Fire

    11 12.09%
  • Firebrand

    0 0%
  • Jessica Cruz

    34 37.36%
  • Kyle Rayner

    22 24.18%
  • Renee Montoya

    17 18.68%
  • Sideways

    9 9.89%
  • Vibe

    16 17.58%
  • Other

    7 7.69%
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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I believe they would be, no, in fact everyone would be if they just built one from the ground up.
    That was one of the things I loved about Naomi so much. Sure, there's some recognizable archetypes and tropes in there, but for the most part her story is all her own. She's not a thinly veiled Spider-Man, or a Bat or a Super or even a Flash. She's straight up original. And it's lovely.

    Vibe and Sideways....there's problems with both. Vibe's original appearances....I've only actually read a handful, but damn are they awful. There's a well earned stink on the character, and while the New52 and CW have done a lot to redeem Vibe.....in the back of our heads, there's always gonna be that memory of him break dancing and saying "Wha'chu lookin' at?" that just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. And Sideways....okay, I love how unashamed New Age was of ripping off Marvel characters. I thought it was good fun, and a not bad business move at the time. But that's not a strong foundation for a real long-lasting IP that can grow into it's own self-sustaining franchise. It could've grown into its own thing with time (they all could've), but Sideways never got that.
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  2. #47
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That was one of the things I loved about Naomi so much. Sure, there's some recognizable archetypes and tropes in there, but for the most part her story is all her own. She's not a thinly veiled Spider-Man, or a Bat or a Super or even a Flash. She's straight up original. And it's lovely.

    Vibe and Sideways....there's problems with both. Vibe's original appearances....I've only actually read a handful, but damn are they awful. There's a well earned stink on the character, and while the New52 and CW have done a lot to redeem Vibe.....in the back of our heads, there's always gonna be that memory of him break dancing and saying "Wha'chu lookin' at?" that just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. And Sideways....okay, I love how unashamed New Age was of ripping off Marvel characters. I thought it was good fun, and a not bad business move at the time. But that's not a strong foundation for a real long-lasting IP that can grow into it's own self-sustaining franchise. It could've grown into its own thing with time (they all could've), but Sideways never got that.
    Funny while I aggre with most of your ideas here except I look at naomi as a shit-tier character that only exists because Bendis has to bendis. . . so while he's activley sitting down everywhere putting character inserts of Blackgirl swag into as many books as he can. <- That an A-list character that does not make. I mean I guess he's shotgunning but once hes gone thankfully his creations tend to sputter out.

    No, she had a good press for a second, but I think that standing in the background of a few books when anyone remembers them is the fate of most characters, but Bendis characters more.


    It just gets to the point where I realize .... because of how dc markets things you best be would be to shove a chracter onto the JLA and order the next 3 writers of the book to push the Character in that space.
    They try it with jessica cruz but really having another green lantern ... a waning proposition.

    So... I think the hardest part is picking a design that is memorable so because of how many characters there are theres likely to be some overlap.
    but.
    1. Design/Name
    2 Powerset (thats missing from the big 7)
    3. Events/Exposure.
    4. Origin
    5. Writers.

    I can see how every character high tier has these things going for them, but I feel like Dc hasn't been able to push a succesful character since... when? So they have deeper problems.
    You can also see how almost every charcater is missing a key element from the above and probably something I missed.

    Aztek is actually an interesting character, but hes kind of out of touch the way he was presented, but thats just me.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That was one of the things I loved about Naomi so much. Sure, there's some recognizable archetypes and tropes in there, but for the most part her story is all her own. She's not a thinly veiled Spider-Man, or a Bat or a Super or even a Flash. She's straight up original. And it's lovely.

    Vibe and Sideways....there's problems with both. Vibe's original appearances....I've only actually read a handful, but damn are they awful. There's a well earned stink on the character, and while the New52 and CW have done a lot to redeem Vibe.....in the back of our heads, there's always gonna be that memory of him break dancing and saying "Wha'chu lookin' at?" that just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. And Sideways....okay, I love how unashamed New Age was of ripping off Marvel characters. I thought it was good fun, and a not bad business move at the time. But that's not a strong foundation for a real long-lasting IP that can grow into it's own self-sustaining franchise. It could've grown into its own thing with time (they all could've), but Sideways never got that.
    I think Vibe would be ok if they just used him more, you need stories to get beyond a horrible first impression. I don't think it's fair to keep holding his break dancing past against him when he's been shown in a better light both on screen and on page.

    I also love Naomi as well, I hope she sticks around.
    Last edited by 9th.; 03-27-2020 at 07:39 AM.
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  4. #49
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That was one of the things I loved about Naomi so much. Sure, there's some recognizable archetypes and tropes in there, but for the most part her story is all her own. She's not a thinly veiled Spider-Man, or a Bat or a Super or even a Flash. She's straight up original. And it's lovely.

    Vibe and Sideways....there's problems with both. Vibe's original appearances....I've only actually read a handful, but damn are they awful. There's a well earned stink on the character, and while the New52 and CW have done a lot to redeem Vibe.....in the back of our heads, there's always gonna be that memory of him break dancing and saying "Wha'chu lookin' at?" that just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. And Sideways....okay, I love how unashamed New Age was of ripping off Marvel characters. I thought it was good fun, and a not bad business move at the time. But that's not a strong foundation for a real long-lasting IP that can grow into it's own self-sustaining franchise. It could've grown into its own thing with time (they all could've), but Sideways never got that.
    It occurs to me that... Maybe the latino characters could use their own Milestone. Alternatively, You mean and El Gato were big fans of our new trinity:

    Firstorm (Jax/Jason), Blue Beetle Jaime, Stargirl Courtney.

    and that has appeal with kids, and can be taken seriously as well.


    But new characters might need their own space as well, vertigo was a big missed oppurtunity to focus on characters worth reading.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  5. #50
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Funny while I aggre with most of your ideas here except I look at naomi as a shit-tier character
    You didn't like Naomi? You monster!

    I mean, you're not wrong about Bendis but Naomi, I think, might have what it takes to stick. It's early yet, and we'll have to wait and see how season 2 does, and if it makes it as far as season 3, but I think we've got a solid foundation that *could* last long-term....if DC has some actual follow-through for once.

    Popping up in Bendis' other books definitely doesn't make her A-list, not even close. But give it time; if DC doesn't abandon her she just might have what it takes to endure. I dunno if she'll ever be A-list, but if she becomes an IP that actually sticks around that'll be a small miracle, considering she's not a Big 7 legacy.

    Aztek is actually an interesting character, but hes kind of out of touch the way he was presented, but thats just me.
    I really liked Aztek too. Yeah, he's kinda screwy but I don't think it would take that much effort to straighten out. Did you read Orlando's JLA? He introduced a new Aztek but I had dropped the book by that time, maybe the new kid has potential?

    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    I think Vibe would be ok if they just used him more, you need stories to get beyond a horrible first impression. I don't think it's fair to keep holding his break dancing past against him when he's been shown in a better light both on screen and on page.
    Yeah, quality use will help make people forget the 80's Vibe but I think it'd be a rough road getting there.

    Is it bad that I'd still have him like dancing? New52 Vibe was a decent book and I loved the hook but Cisco had zero personality. I'd write him as being a music and dance fan, just not the stereotype he was originally. Probably make him an engineering student, to borrow a bit from the CW too.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    It occurs to me that... Maybe the latino characters could use their own Milestone. Alternatively, You mean and El Gato were big fans of our new trinity:

    Firstorm (Jax/Jason), Blue Beetle Jaime, Stargirl Courtney.
    You know I'd be all over a 'Storm-Beetle-Stargirl book! Love all those characters so much.

    And the Latinx (that's the right term isn't it?) characters could definitely use their own Milestone.....so could our Asian American (or just Asian) characters for that matter. Maybe DC should call Al Ewing? He made Mighty Avengers way better than it had any right to be, after all.

    Oh, for those who didn't read it, Mighty Avengers was an Avengers B title that spun out of the events of Infinity (during Hickman's run) featuring minority characters, several of whom were pretty new and/or totally unknown. On paper, it was such a gimmick it never should've lasted, but it was really damn good.
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  6. #51
    Mighty Member krazijoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You didn't like Naomi? You monster!

    I mean, you're not wrong about Bendis but Naomi, I think, might have what it takes to stick. It's early yet, and we'll have to wait and see how season 2 does, and if it makes it as far as season 3, but I think we've got a solid foundation that *could* last long-term....if DC has some actual follow-through for once.

    Popping up in Bendis' other books definitely doesn't make her A-list, not even close. But give it time; if DC doesn't abandon her she just might have what it takes to endure. I dunno if she'll ever be A-list, but if she becomes an IP that actually sticks around that'll be a small miracle, considering she's not a Big 7 legacy.



    I really liked Aztek too. Yeah, he's kinda screwy but I don't think it would take that much effort to straighten out. Did you read Orlando's JLA? He introduced a new Aztek but I had dropped the book by that time, maybe the new kid has potential?



    Yeah, quality use will help make people forget the 80's Vibe but I think it'd be a rough road getting there.

    Is it bad that I'd still have him like dancing? New52 Vibe was a decent book and I loved the hook but Cisco had zero personality. I'd write him as being a music and dance fan, just not the stereotype he was originally. Probably make him an engineering student, to borrow a bit from the CW too.....



    You know I'd be all over a 'Storm-Beetle-Stargirl book! Love all those characters so much.

    And the Latinx (that's the right term isn't it?) characters could definitely use their own Milestone.....so could our Asian American (or just Asian) characters for that matter. Maybe DC should call Al Ewing? He made Mighty Avengers way better than it had any right to be, after all.

    Oh, for those who didn't read it, Mighty Avengers was an Avengers B title that spun out of the events of Infinity (during Hickman's run) featuring minority characters, several of whom were pretty new and/or totally unknown. On paper, it was such a gimmick it never should've lasted, but it was really damn good.
    IF they ever go back to Earth1-2-3 etc, VIBE would be a huge asset and could be a major player again. They could even play off of his Detroit character Deadpool style with some witty remarks about how bad that iteration of his toon was. And then get rid of his Dead? brother storyline issues whatever...As much as I bust on Vibe and JLA Detroit, I love them as heroes and it's too bad Crisis wiped most of them out...
    Last edited by krazijoe; 03-27-2020 at 10:30 AM.

  7. #52
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    When u bring up the mighty avengers, I see how wrong I was. On 4chan sometimes they say "quarantine threads" and now I get it.
    Smh. I don't mean to should fickle but thinking of the mighty avengers trying to make a book of all one race is regression in a way and doesn't lead to a-listers. Just more questions.
    Its tricky. I don't want to quarantine latino (youre best going with the name of the thread) characters, but bring them to the forefront.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krazijoe View Post
    IF they ever go back to Earth1-2-3 etc, VIBE would be a huge asset and could be a major player again. They could even play off of his Detroit character Deadpool style with some witty remarks about how bad that iteration of his toon was. And then get rid of his Dead? brother storyline issues whatever...As much as I bust on Vibe and JLA*********, I love them as heroes and it's too bad Crisis wiped most of them out...
    Vibe *could* be fantastic in a DC multiverse. I've long thought he'd do well in a Justice Incarnate style title, and be DC's "go-to" guy for multiverse adventures. Back when Vibe's solo was around I really wanted to see a crossover with the Batman 66 digital first title. That would've been excellent.

    And I love the idea of him kinda shaking his head over his 80's version. That's fun meta commentary there.

    But we gotta get the multiverse back in action for this first!

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    When u bring up the mighty avengers, I see how wrong I was. On 4chan sometimes they say "quarantine threads" and now I get it.
    Smh. I don't mean to should fickle but thinking of the mighty avengers trying to make a book of all one race is regression in a way and doesn't lead to a-listers. Just more questions.
    Its tricky. I don't want to quarantine latino (youre best going with the name of the thread) characters, but bring them to the forefront.
    Well, not to nitpick but Mighty wasn't just *one* race, we had black and Hispanic characters in there, a white guy, and I think an Asian American or two? It's been a long time of course, so maybe I'm remembering it wrong.

    But yeah, putting minority characters in a book together is.....it could go very wrong, in the wrong hands. And DC has shown that they're the wrong hands (or were, at least, maybe Lee will do better as publisher?). I do think it *could* be good, just as Mighty and Milestone were good. But we'd need to make sure minority characters weren't being quarantined too. Like most things it'd be a balancing act. And we shouldn't trust DC to do it right, but....I do think it *could* be done right.
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  9. #54
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Blue Beetle i guess. They kinda tried though, the character seems to struggle to gain any pull.

    Solo, with the Teen Titans, Young Justice...he is there , but always has a background character sadly.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But yeah, putting minority characters in a book together is.....it could go very wrong, in the wrong hands. And DC has shown that they're the wrong hands (or were, at least, maybe Lee will do better as publisher?). I do think it *could* be good, just as Mighty and Milestone were good. But we'd need to make sure minority characters weren't being quarantined too. Like most things it'd be a balancing act. And we shouldn't trust DC to do it right, but....I do think it *could* be done right.
    If it is done well, it can be fun, and not seem like all the minorities are being shunted off to a ghetto apart from 'the real teams.'

    Marvel's Agents of Atlas, which can be jokingly called 'Asians of Atlas,' because the team is all-Asian characters, is, IMO, a good example of it working well. It's not a Milestone, everyone is part of the standard Marvel universe, so there's that, but the team formed around a specific region-affecting situation, so it kind of makes sense that the heroes who 'showed up' are mostly from Korea, with a smattering of Chinese, Indian, etc. (A couple of them are Korean-American so it's perhaps more of a stretch for those two to be 'in the area,' but it doesn't feel forced to me.)

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You didn't like Naomi? You monster!

    I mean, you're not wrong about Bendis but Naomi, I think, might have what it takes to stick. It's early yet, and we'll have to wait and see how season 2 does, and if it makes it as far as season 3, but I think we've got a solid foundation that *could* last long-term....if DC has some actual follow-through for once.

    Popping up in Bendis' other books definitely doesn't make her A-list, not even close. But give it time; if DC doesn't abandon her she just might have what it takes to endure. I dunno if she'll ever be A-list, but if she becomes an IP that actually sticks around that'll be a small miracle, considering she's not a Big 7 legacy.



    I really liked Aztek too. Yeah, he's kinda screwy but I don't think it would take that much effort to straighten out. Did you read Orlando's JLA? He introduced a new Aztek but I had dropped the book by that time, maybe the new kid has potential?



    Yeah, quality use will help make people forget the 80's Vibe but I think it'd be a rough road getting there.

    Is it bad that I'd still have him like dancing? New52 Vibe was a decent book and I loved the hook but Cisco had zero personality. I'd write him as being a music and dance fan, just not the stereotype he was originally. Probably make him an engineering student, to borrow a bit from the CW too.....



    You know I'd be all over a 'Storm-Beetle-Stargirl book! Love all those characters so much.

    And the Latinx (that's the right term isn't it?) characters could definitely use their own Milestone.....so could our Asian American (or just Asian) characters for that matter. Maybe DC should call Al Ewing? He made Mighty Avengers way better than it had any right to be, after all.

    Oh, for those who didn't read it, Mighty Avengers was an Avengers B title that spun out of the events of Infinity (during Hickman's run) featuring minority characters, several of whom were pretty new and/or totally unknown. On paper, it was such a gimmick it never should've lasted, but it was really damn good.
    It's not bad at all, lot's of people dance irl as a hobby, career, and a full on passion. Now it would have to be done really well due to his past but it can be done.
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  12. #57
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    If it is done well, it can be fun, and not seem like all the minorities are being shunted off to a ghetto apart from 'the real teams.'
    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    It's not bad at all, lot's of people dance irl as a hobby, career, and a full on passion. Now it would have to be done really well due to his past but it can be done.
    It always comes down to execution, doesn't it?

    I'd reference the Birds of Prey as another team that's minority-majority without feeling like a ghetto used to get the characters out of the way. Midnight has a damn valid point about a team of all Latino heroes (or other minority-majority group) being in danger of becoming that kind of ghetto, and these characters should be built up on their own merits. But I suppose it comes down to execution and intent right? The Titans are a ghetto book, published just so no one else has to deal with Starfire, Raven, Nightwing, etc. And it shows. But BoP and Mighty Avengers felt like great, quality books where the rosters just happened to be minority-majority. McDuffie's League run also had a lot of minority characters in it, but it never felt like a ghetto title (not that the League is ever considered as such by DC).
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  13. #58
    Incredible Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    The thing with the original Vibe and the New 52 Vibe is that they're 2 completely different characters. The original Vibe was a bad walking 80's stereotype who went by the name Paco, was into B-Boy-ing and Breaking and had sonic powers.

    The New 52 Vibe was younger and just an average kid named Cisco who accidentally got his superpowers after being effected by a wave of sonic percussions from one of the Boom Tube explosions during Darkseid's first invasion of Earth at the beginning of the New 52. The Boom Tube explosion's wave of sonic percussions not only gave Cisco sonic powers, it also allowed him to tune into the different vibrational frequency of each universe that makes up the Multiverse (because every planet in each universe that makes up the Multiverse occupies the same space but has on its own vibrational plane of existence as established in A Flash of Two World's when Barry Allen ended up on the original Earth 2 by accidentally vibrating at the same vibrational frequency of the original Earth 2 universe)

    Allow Rip Hunter to expand on that...



    So I could see the New 52 Vibe catching on because he's a fun, good character with powers that can make him someone important.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    It occurs to me that... Maybe the latino characters could use their own Milestone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    And the Latinx (that's the right term isn't it?) characters could definitely use their own Milestone.....so could our Asian American (or just Asian) characters for that matter. Maybe DC should call Al Ewing? He made Mighty Avengers way better than it had any right to be, after all.
    People do remember that Milestone wasn't just black characters (or even black creators), right? They had books for characters of different backgrounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    When u bring up the mighty avengers, I see how wrong I was. On 4chan sometimes they say "quarantine threads" and now I get it.
    Smh. I don't mean to should fickle but thinking of the mighty avengers trying to make a book of all one race is regression in a way and doesn't lead to a-listers. Just more questions.
    Its tricky. I don't want to quarantine latino (youre best going with the name of the thread) characters, but bring them to the forefront.
    The Mighty Avengers had Ava Ayala who was latina and She-Hulk who was white (please avoid making the obvious jokes). It wasn't just one race.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 03-27-2020 at 09:41 PM.

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Blue Beetle i guess. They kinda tried though, the character seems to struggle to gain any pull.

    Solo, with the Teen Titans, Young Justice...he is there , but always has a background character sadly.
    True, but a lot of DC’s more well known characters have traditionally had trouble maintaining a solo book. Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, Hawkman, Zatanna, etc. So I really don’t see Jaime’s inability to hold down a solo as a huge knock against the character.

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