Buffy in the Marvel Universe

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

That scythe wouldn't come close to cutting Luke's skin. Pre-powerup, the dude got hit with a rocket launcher and was unscathed.

Buffy isn't taking the level of fist that trivially knocks what looks like a lightweight bank vault down, or the level that clocks the hell out of Luke. And, though he constantly forgets it, Danny can massively amp his reflexes with his chi, to the point where he's legit blitzing Buffy. He's also a lot more skilled than she is.

Matt is ALSO much faster than Buffy (trivially catching arrows out of the sky while distracted, bouncing around the inside of a swerving taxi, trying to save Elektra and talking to Stick). He's also much more skilled. It would take him a while to beat her down, but that would definitely be the result.

Matt is not MUCH faster, or even as fast as Buffy. Buffy can react to crossbow bolts, a bear trap after it has gone off, etc. If one brings in Angel's speed feats as well, which she is basically wven with, it's evident Matt is not faster


Matt isn't really more skilled either. However, I can see where you're coming from with this, since he basically schooled Danny. Even if we go along with MCU DD being more skilled though, he isn't to the point Buffy can't grab him. At which point she just ragdolls him.

DD wouldn't be able to Ko Buffy. Buffy gets knocked 40 feet and crumbles a wall without being Koed. As for the Ironfist, I wasn't saying she'd tank it or anything. The Beast, Glory, and Caleb all hit as hard as when Danny busted out of the mental insitution.

Luke vs the Scythe
I was thinking the scythe is magic and would bypass his durability, but it's probably lacking on the feats, yeah.

Danny amping his speed happened one single time against and never again. I'd argue that's smvfl.

[Beadle]

You can’t just say ‘Buffy is basically equal to Angel’ and then use a comparison where because of Angel’s feats, Matt is not as fast as Buffy.

If Buffy doesn’t have speed-feats in her own right that are equal-to-or-better-than Matt, she’s not as fast.

I’m not saying whether she is or isn’t faster - just that the logic you’ve used there is... not great.

[Powerboy]

You can’t just say ‘Buffy is basically equal to Angel’ and then use a comparison where because of Angel’s feats, Matt is not as fast as Buffy.

If Buffy doesn’t have speed-feats in her own right that are equal-to-or-better-than Matt, she’s not as fast.

I’m not saying whether she is or isn’t faster - just that the logic you’ve used there is... not great.

Plus I'm fairly sure Angel's speed was a one episode wonder. At the very least, it contradicted everything before with no explanation.

[Slade1]

You can’t just say ‘Buffy is basically equal to Angel’ and then use a comparison where because of Angel’s feats, Matt is not as fast as Buffy.

If Buffy doesn’t have speed-feats in her own right that are equal-to-or-better-than Matt, she’s not as fast.

I’m not saying whether she is or isn’t faster - just that the logic you’ve used there is... not great.

To be fair, he did supply Buffy's feats, not Angel's.

[Beadle]

To be fair, he did supply Buffy's feats, not Angel's.

Yeah, absolutely. That’s fair.

I think I mostly took issue with this sentence:

If one brings in Angel's speed feats as well, which she is basically wven with, it's evident Matt is not faster.

[big_adventure]

Matt is not MUCH faster, or even as fast as Buffy. Buffy can react to crossbow bolts, a bear trap after it has gone off, etc. If one brings in Angel's speed feats as well, which she is basically wven with, it's evident Matt is not faster


Matt isn't really more skilled either. However, I can see where you're coming from with this, since he basically schooled Danny. Even if we go along with MCU DD being more skilled though, he isn't to the point Buffy can't grab him. At which point she just ragdolls him.

DD wouldn't be able to Ko Buffy. Buffy gets knocked 40 feet and crumbles a wall without being Koed. As for the Ironfist, I wasn't saying she'd tank it or anything. The Beast, Glory, and Caleb all hit as hard as when Danny busted out of the mental insitution.

Luke vs the Scythe
I was thinking the scythe is magic and would bypass his durability, but it's probably lacking on the feats, yeah.

Danny amping his speed happened one single time against and never again. I'd argue that's smvfl.

Matt's feat with the arrow, which is totally consistent for him, is better than anything I recall Buffy doing. Granted, it's been a while, but ISTR Buffy caught a crossbow bolt that she knew was coming when she really wasn't particularly distracted. Go watch the scene in the car where Matt does it. It's not at all the same thing. Matt also has a number of feats, while pretty seriously downgraded, blocking, dodging and deflecting Bullseye's stuff. Not to mention a ton of aim-dodging.

Danny forgetting to use his amped speed is more PIS than SMvFL. He described the ability one time, and was shown using it to great effect another - so it's high end, consistent with presentation. It's not like the guy has so many feats that it shouldn't be see that way. Plus, he spends a LOT of time sabotaging himself, either through ego, through naiveté, or through general bad writing.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Matt's feat with the arrow, which is totally consistent for him, is better than anything I recall Buffy doing. Granted, it's been a while, but ISTR Buffy caught a crossbow bolt that she knew was coming when she really wasn't particularly distracted. Go watch the scene in the car where Matt does it. It's not at all the same thing. Matt also has a number of feats, while pretty seriously downgraded, blocking, dodging and deflecting Bullseye's stuff. Not to mention a ton of aim-dodging.

Matt has the skills and the speed, but not the power to put her down. All she need to do is catch him or punch him once and he's a dead man. He's get a less experienced Buffy but a veteran Buffy would be a big fight. Bullseye would have murdered Buffy, though.

Matt being the Iron Fist or Colleen Iron Fist would defeat her. She's not surviving an Iron Fist katana and Colleen has the martial arts skills to keep up.

Danny forgetting to use his amped speed is more PIS than SMvFL. He described the ability one time, and was shown using it to great effect another - so it's high end, consistent with presentation. It's not like the guy has so many feats that it shouldn't be see that way. Plus, he spends a LOT of time sabotaging himself, either through ego, through naiveté, or through general bad writing.

Season 1 Danny gets destroyed, season 2 is slight improvement IMO.

[big_adventure]

Matt has the skills and the speed, but not the power to put her down. All she need to do is catch him or punch him once and he's a dead man. He's get a less experienced Buffy but a veteran Buffy would be a big fight. Bullseye would have murdered Buffy, though.

Matt being the Iron Fist or Colleen Iron Fist would defeat her. She's not surviving an Iron Fist katana and Colleen has the martial arts skills to keep up.



Season 1 Danny gets destroyed, season 2 is slight improvement IMO.

What I was talking about for Matt was that his skill and speed would let him pound on her. No, he doesn't want to take a lot of hits from her, but he shouldn't, being vastly more skilled and quicker. He's also got his armored suit to help with survivability. It would take him a while - Buffy is tough as hell - but I'd give him the majority against her.

Of course, there is simply no way they would ever fight. Buffy isn't a bad person and doesn't do bad person things, and DEFINITELY doesn't do them in Hell's Kitchen, so Matt would have zero reason whatsoever to fight her. I could see Buffy, on a visit to New York, wanting to check out the Devil of Hell's Kitchen to ensure that he's not, you know, a real devil, but she doesn't have the chops to track Matt, she can't catch him if/when he runs, and she certainly can't surprise the guy.

[Steel Inquisitor]

What I was talking about for Matt was that his skill and speed would let him pound on her. No, he doesn't want to take a lot of hits from her, but he shouldn't, being vastly more skilled and quicker. He's also got his armored suit to help with survivability. It would take him a while - Buffy is tough as hell - but I'd give him the majority against her.

Of course, there is simply no way they would ever fight. Buffy isn't a bad person and doesn't do bad person things, and DEFINITELY doesn't do them in Hell's Kitchen, so Matt would have zero reason whatsoever to fight her. I could see Buffy, on a visit to New York, wanting to check out the Devil of Hell's Kitchen to ensure that he's not, you know, a real devil, but she doesn't have the chops to track Matt, she can't catch him if/when he runs, and she certainly can't surprise the guy.

Agreed.

[Sharpandpointies]

Okay, I'm taking issue with a couple of things here. Actually, one thing. I'm seeing the qualifier 'vastly' being used.

I don't feel that's correct. In fact, I feel using it is giving the wrong impression and leading to erroneous conclusions.

Buffy does stuff like catch crossbow bolts at close range, as I recall (someone have the video?) and pulls her foot out of a bear trap before it closes on her ankle. This is pretty darned fast.

To say that Matt has VASTLY greater speed implies he has some kind of insurmountable advantage, that he'll be able to blitz her. If that's not what is being said, then perhaps some other kind of qualifier should be chosen.

For myself, while someone might make the argument that Matt is faster, it's not 'vastly' faster to the point where he's going to be blitzing. If he is faster, it's 'he's fast enough to have an edge on her in speed', that's all. It's an advantage.

And honestly? If someone could post the video for Buffy catching the bolt that would be good. I'm even wondering about the idea that Matt even gets to be considered faster than Buffy based on him catching arrows loosed at him at a distance (yes, it's multiple arrows, but again, they are projectiles he's picking up at a significant distance before catching them) versus Buffy potentially catching a crossbow bolt loosed at close range. Or yanking her foot out of a bear trap as it closes.

But I'd personally need to see the crossbow feat to judge.

Similarly for her skill. Sure, I'll admit here that Matt displays greater skill. But 'vastly' seems to be a bridge too far. Matt still gets hit by normals in groups. Matt still struggles against powerful-but-not-skilled opponents like Fisk. While the choreography is better, and Matt clearly shows more versatility (and realism, mostly), I'm not seeing some gigantic gulf in their fighting ability. Is Matt better? Sure. Does he enjoy an advantage on her? Sure.

So, we have Matt having an advantage in skill and likely in speed. Advantage. Not insurmountable advantage.

Contrast this with Buffy being considerably more physically powerful than Matt. She hits harder, potentially by a rather large chunk. Worse, her durability/soak is...well, Matt doesn't eat a punch in the face that sends him flying 20'+, such that he's STILL in the air when he hits the wall, and hits the concrete wall hard enough to put cracks in it (ie, Buffy would have kept going for a lot more distance). This hit basically stunned Buffy, but it didn't actually cause any lasting damage; she was perfectly capable of continuing the fight after a moment to shake it off.

Matt is going to work like hell to try to hurt her, even with his batons; they're blunt. And if Matt has his batons, Buffy is likely to be sporting edged weapons.

Buffy is considerably stronger than MCU Fisk, who (once he got his hands on Matt) has bounced Matt around like a basketball. And yes, in this case she IS vastly more durable than Fisk as well. And she's actually closer to Matt in skill than she is to Fisk, given her own fighting feats of taking on groups of vampires without getting hit, etc. And she's in Matt's ballpark for speed, as well, at the least.

So...I'm figuring she can eat a lot of damage from Matt, he can't eat a lot of damage from her, and she IS going to be landing hits and getting her hands on him in a long, drawn out fight (which is what this will be). So my feeling is that any fight between Matt and Buffy, barring Matt starting it by whaling on the back of her head umpteen times with batons before she even knows he's there, is very much an uphill struggle for Matt.

I realize this isn't a Rumble - Matt versus Buffy - but the comparison has come up.

Out of the two characters, I rather like Matt more. I also by FAR enjoy watching Matt's fight scenes. But I think he's being oversold here, and Buffy's capabilities are being downplayed.

Mileage, it may vary.

[Captain Morgan]

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthre...m_source=share

A little cursory googling turned up a crossbow catch in this thread where she catches it from a booby trap aimed at someone else that she didn't see coming, wasn't facing, and only traveled the length of a school room. This is done midconversation and looks quite easy.

Her comics also feature her doing stuff like high end street leveler battle blitzes, with multiple afterimages of her killing 5 vampires in one panel, punching a demon 4 times in one panel, or laying out 4 demons in one panel. I'm reasonable sure we should count these as canon as they are officially an extension of the show's seasons, so unless that was her powered up in ALL those scenes she has got to be getting close to like... Comic book Tim Drake? Comic book Black Widow?

I'm with Sharp. She seems fast enough to catch Matt and tear him apart.

[Pendaran]

Her comics also feature her doing stuff like high end street leveler battle blitzes, with multiple afterimages of her killing 5 vampires in one panel, punching a demon 4 times in one panel, or laying out 4 demons in one panel. I'm reasonable sure we should count these as canon as they are officially an extension of the show's seasons

Considering that they vary between which are "official" and not, and that there was a Boom comics reboot of Buffy completely, I don't really find that super reasonable. Particularly when some of her comics feature her operating at a level that 7 seasons of a television show didn't event hint at.

[big_adventure]

Okay, I'm taking issue with a couple of things here. Actually, one thing. I'm seeing the qualifier 'vastly' being used.

I don't feel that's correct. In fact, I feel using it is giving the wrong impression and leading to erroneous conclusions.

Buffy does stuff like catch crossbow bolts at close range, as I recall (someone have the video?) and pulls her foot out of a bear trap before it closes on her ankle. This is pretty darned fast.

To say that Matt has VASTLY greater speed implies he has some kind of insurmountable advantage, that he'll be able to blitz her. If that's not what is being said, then perhaps some other kind of qualifier should be chosen.

For myself, while someone might make the argument that Matt is faster, it's not 'vastly' faster to the point where he's going to be blitzing. If he is faster, it's 'he's fast enough to have an edge on her in speed', that's all. It's an advantage.

And honestly? If someone could post the video for Buffy catching the bolt that would be good. I'm even wondering about the idea that Matt even gets to be considered faster than Buffy based on him catching arrows loosed at him at a distance (yes, it's multiple arrows, but again, they are projectiles he's picking up at a significant distance before catching them) versus Buffy potentially catching a crossbow bolt loosed at close range. Or yanking her foot out of a bear trap as it closes.

But I'd personally need to see the crossbow feat to judge.

Similarly for her skill. Sure, I'll admit here that Matt displays greater skill. But 'vastly' seems to be a bridge too far. Matt still gets hit by normals in groups. Matt still struggles against powerful-but-not-skilled opponents like Fisk. While the choreography is better, and Matt clearly shows more versatility (and realism, mostly), I'm not seeing some gigantic gulf in their fighting ability. Is Matt better? Sure. Does he enjoy an advantage on her? Sure.

So, we have Matt having an advantage in skill and likely in speed. Advantage. Not insurmountable advantage.

Contrast this with Buffy being considerably more physically powerful than Matt. She hits harder, potentially by a rather large chunk. Worse, her durability/soak is...well, Matt doesn't eat a punch in the face that sends him flying 20'+, such that he's STILL in the air when he hits the wall, and hits the concrete wall hard enough to put cracks in it (ie, Buffy would have kept going for a lot more distance). This hit basically stunned Buffy, but it didn't actually cause any lasting damage; she was perfectly capable of continuing the fight after a moment to shake it off.

Matt is going to work like hell to try to hurt her, even with his batons; they're blunt. And if Matt has his batons, Buffy is likely to be sporting edged weapons.

Buffy is considerably stronger than MCU Fisk, who (once he got his hands on Matt) has bounced Matt around like a basketball. And yes, in this case she IS vastly more durable than Fisk as well. And she's actually closer to Matt in skill than she is to Fisk, given her own fighting feats of taking on groups of vampires without getting hit, etc. And she's in Matt's ballpark for speed, as well, at the least.

So...I'm figuring she can eat a lot of damage from Matt, he can't eat a lot of damage from her, and she IS going to be landing hits and getting her hands on him in a long, drawn out fight (which is what this will be). So my feeling is that any fight between Matt and Buffy, barring Matt starting it by whaling on the back of her head umpteen times with batons before she even knows he's there, is very much an uphill struggle for Matt.

I realize this isn't a Rumble - Matt versus Buffy - but the comparison has come up.

Out of the two characters, I rather like Matt more. I also by FAR enjoy watching Matt's fight scenes. But I think he's being oversold here, and Buffy's capabilities are being downplayed.

Mileage, it may vary.

One small clarification - "vastly" in the post in question was referring to Matt's skill, not speed. He's quicker, at least in my eyes, but the "vastly" was all about skill. Buffy, from my memories, is good but not all THAT good. She gets by a lot on her physical advantage over all of the rank & file beasties. Matt is very, very skilled.

And yes, Buffy is much stronger and tougher. But she's not invulnerable, and she has been choked, smacked around, and hurt before. Matt just has to focus on vitals - and I see him as being quick enough to target those things.

To clarify further, I'm not saying "Matt stomps" or "Matt wins anything close to 10/10." I just see him winning a majority, and probably a close one.

Mileage, as stated, may vary. One point where mileage can vary a lot is in the relative choreographies of the two shows. Buffy the Vampire Show didn't exactly focus on combat, whereas Daredevil isn't far from "best in class" in that aspect. And where Buffy dominates regular vamps in the show, by the middle to the end, a ton of normal humans were dominating them, too. Buffy also has had some training and a bunch of experience, but he training doesn't come from people like Stick, and she's always had that "I'm physically superior" thing to fall back on.

[Sharpandpointies]

One small clarification - "vastly" in the post in question was referring to Matt's skill, not speed. He's quicker, at least in my eyes, but the "vastly" was all about skill. Buffy, from my memories, is good but not all THAT good. She gets by a lot on her physical advantage over all of the rank & file beasties. Matt is very, very skilled.

And yes, Buffy is much stronger and tougher. But she's not invulnerable, and she has been choked, smacked around, and hurt before. Matt just has to focus on vitals - and I see him as being quick enough to target those things.

To clarify further, I'm not saying "Matt stomps" or "Matt wins anything close to 10/10." I just see him winning a majority, and probably a close one.

Mileage, as stated, may vary. One point where mileage can vary a lot is in the relative choreographies of the two shows. Buffy the Vampire Show didn't exactly focus on combat, whereas Daredevil isn't far from "best in class" in that aspect. And where Buffy dominates regular vamps in the show, by the middle to the end, a ton of normal humans were dominating them, too. Buffy also has had some training and a bunch of experience, but he training doesn't come from people like Stick, and she's always had that "I'm physically superior" thing to fall back on.

Fair enough. It read differently, though I see upon checking that yeah, it could also read that you weren't saying 'vastly more quick'. My mistake.

For me, skill is what we see and the results the characters get. Do we see Buffy fighting against groups of vampires and doing about as good as Matt (most of the time, not getting hit and landing hits of her own). Yep. Do we see the same with weapons? Sure.

If I was all about 'but the choreography!' I'd be saying that Melinda May (Agents of Shield) isn't terribly good at all, despite the fact that on the show she lays waste to crowds of enemies and fights supposedly top-tier people. Or that Black Canary in the comics is actually a crap fighter because she laces her fingers together and axe-handle hits people.

If it was all about presentation, sure, Matt's supposed to be some kind of prodigy, but Buffy is supposed to have downloaded everything from all of the Slayers before her, so....

Etc.

Buffy manages about as well as Matt does in fights. I'd give Matt a edge/advantage in skill due to better realism (better, not perfect) and better combos, but that's about all.

I don't give Matt any kind of advantage when it comes to equipment - if anything, he loses there, given Buffy carries edged weapons and Matt...doesn't (especially since Buffy thinks blunt trauma of the level Matt puts out is a nice Tuesday fight).

Having looked at the speed feats, I figure Buffy is running about even with MCU Matt. Mid-conversation, with zero knowledge a trap is set up, she catches a bolt from a crossbow that's loosed at close range from barely inside her peripheral vision. Between that and the bear trap feat, I figure it's easily as good proof as we have for Matt.

So for me?

Speed roughly on par.

Skill edge to Matt, but not a huge one.

Strength, hitting power to Buffy by a fair chunk. And grappling strength. And breaking things. I'm looking at the respect thread, and she's doing stuff that's well-beyond what Matt pulls off. She gets out of a jail cell by pulling the bars apart, as an example. She absolutely casually manhandles large people, picking them up one-handed to punch them in the face multiple times, then tossing them across the room with ease. That kind of thing is nothing for her.

Damage soak/durability. Matt doesn't have an edged weapon, doesn't use edged weapons, so that's not a problem. Buffy falls forty feet onto cement and jumps back up to fight, gets smacked 20' through the air to severely damage a cement wall and is only stunned, gets hit by a car and is just fine afterward. Buffy's toughness is considerably past what Matt can dish out. He's going to work for a long, long time to bring her down.

Given she's as fast as him, at least approaching his skill level, and quite a bit stronger, I don't think he has that time.

[Captain Morgan]

Considering that they vary between which are "official" and not, and that there was a Boom comics reboot of Buffy completely, I don't really find that super reasonable. Particularly when some of her comics feature her operating at a level that 7 seasons of a television show didn't event hint at.

Fair enough. I haven't actually read the comics, and was just kind of assuming it was a combination of improved experience and removing medium constraints. She still seems slower than Bruce Wayne or Steve Rogers, even with those included, so it didn't seem like an enormous leap from those feats alone.

That's what I get for wading through respect threads I guess, but it was the easiest way to find the crossbow clip