Historically, has the JSA or JLA had more powerful members?

[Lvenger]

If we're talking Pre Crisis era versions of both teams, Dr Fate and The Spectre are both tremendously powerful beings that could even put Pre Crisis Superman in check and they had both Earth 2 Superman and Power Girl so the JSA would be the more powerful of the two teams. However, in the Post Crisis iterations, the League started getting a greater number of more powerful members. Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wally West, Kyle Rayner, Captain Atom, Firestorm to name a few. The JSA have had some heavy hitters like Kingdom Come Superman, Obsidian (though I think he was more powerful when he was a villain) and Alan Scott. But when it comes to sheer numbers of powerhouses, the JLA outnumber the JSA.

[Sutekh]

There was iirc also a time where Fate didn't had his full power and was not using the real Helmet of Fate.

I love that the 'weak' version of Dr. Fate with the half-helmet still had flight, super-strength and invulnerability from the magic amulet, and was basically another Superman. "Oh gosh, what a demotion! I've been stripped of my lord of order / godlike magical powers and now I'm *merely* as powerful as your most powerful dude..."

Still, even with the Specter, Dr. Fate and the Thunderbolt, each of who can more or less do almost anything, the JLA sure has them beat for raw numbers, since there have been dozens of them, and some, like Triumph or Tomorrow Woman or Moon Maiden or Captain Atom or Aztek or Big Barda, are rarely seen or counted compared to Superman or the 37 Green Lanterns, but pretty buff regardless. The JSA has them beat for magic (although Dr. Fate being on both teams helps a bit), but for alien or science or tech heroes, the JLA takes it away.

[The Darknight Detective]

I think comprehensively considering both teams throughout their histories, in all continuities, excluding only the Spectre from consideration.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Does the exclusion also go for the Phantom Stranger? I know he wasn't a full-time JLA member, but he was as powerful as anybody pre-COIE.

[ducklord]

Does the exclusion also go for the Phantom Stranger? I know he wasn't a full-time JLA member, but he was as powerful as anybody pre-COIE.

For the full classic bronze age JLA, you've basically got:

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern
Flash
Aquaman
J'Onn
Hawkman
Atom
Green Arrow
Black Canary
Elongated Man
Red Tornado
Hawkwoman
Zatanna
Firestorm

Phantom Stranger is an odd duck. He was officially offered membership (as opposed to some auxiliary members like Batgirl and Metamorpho), and he never turned it down (like Black Lightning did). He even showed up when summoned by the JLA communicator on a few occasions. I like to include him, but it's probably a more legitimate argument that he shouldn't be.

For the JSA, up until the Crisis you've got:
Flash
Green Lantern
Hawkman
Atom
Dr. Fate
Spectre
Hourman
Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
Starman
Wildcat
Mr. Terrific
Johnny Thunder
Black Canary
Robin
Star Spangled Kid
Power Girl
Huntress

Although the JSA has a few more members than the JLA, they are overloaded with "regular guys in masks" - Batman, Huntress, Robin, Black Canary, Mr. Terrific, Wildcat, and Sandman. Even accounting for the Atom's later atomic punch, that puts them at a disadvantage.

Where the JSA has a clear advantage is in magic. Between the Spectre, Dr. Fate, and Johnny Thunder, they've could wrap up a battle with the JLA in seconds on their lonesome. Zatanna and the Phantom Stranger are powerhouses in their own right, but they don't measure up.

If you're willing to call the duplicates a draw (just for the sake of argument), then the JSA has advantages in numbers on a few fronts. They've got a Batman, a Robin, and a Huntress to counter the JLA's Batman, as well as a Superman and a Powergirl to take out the JLA's Superman. The JLA has an advantage with two Hawkpeople to counter the JSA's singular Hawkman.

The JLA's clear advantage is in variety. They have a stretchy guy, a guy who commands sharks, a shrinky guy, a guy who shoots arrows, a gal who screams real loud, an android who creates tornadoes, a telepathic stretchy guy with near-superman strength, and a kid who can alter fires atomic blasts AND can rearrange molecules if he's given a few seconds to think about it. All the JSA has left in the tank at that point are couple of guys with (admittedly bitchin') cosmic rod technology, and Al Pratt's atomic punch.

Basically, if the JLA can somehow stop the Spectre from turning them into rubber ducks and rip off Fate's helmet, the JLA probably wins in a walk.

[Aahz]

Although the JSA has a few more members than the JLA, they are overloaded with "regular guys in masks" - Batman, Huntress, Robin, Black Canary, Mr. Terrific, Wildcat, and Sandman. Even accounting for the Atom's later atomic punch, that puts them at a disadvantage.

But a lot of those guys, allready pretty old and mostly retired during the bronze age (Robin was pushing 60 at the time of COIE), and some (Batman and Mr. Terrific) were killed.
Batman and Huntress were iirc also never active at the same time.

And Black canary left the JSA for the JLA.

[achilles]

Impossible to say; it all depends on which JSA and which JLA show up. Silver Age JLA---wins based on Superman alone. Spectre at the peak of his "wrath of God" days, JSA easily. Or peak Dr. Fate. Or JUST prior to COIE JSA with Kal-L who can stop the AM by throwing a moon at him, and a PG presumably not far behind.

[superduperman]

I would say JSA because they have more magic based characters. Dr Fate. Johnny and Jakeem Thunder. Alan Scott's ring. Depending on if we're counting the legacy characters as well they are clearly the most powerful. PG has Superman's powers. Hipolyta has her daughter's powers. At one point the JSA even had a more powerful version of Superman than the mainstream Superman. If you take the 2008 version of the JSA, you wouldn't even need the JLA.

[The no face guy]

For the full classic bronze age JLA, you've basically got:

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern
Flash
Aquaman
J'Onn
Hawkman
Atom
Green Arrow
Black Canary
Elongated Man
Red Tornado
Hawkwoman
Zatanna
Firestorm

Phantom Stranger is an odd duck. He was officially offered membership (as opposed to some auxiliary members like Batgirl and Metamorpho), and he never turned it down (like Black Lightning did). He even showed up when summoned by the JLA communicator on a few occasions. I like to include him, but it's probably a more legitimate argument that he shouldn't be.

For the JSA, up until the Crisis you've got:
Flash
Green Lantern
Hawkman
Atom
Dr. Fate
Spectre
Hourman
Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
Starman
Wildcat
Mr. Terrific
Johnny Thunder
Black Canary
Robin
Star Spangled Kid
Power Girl
Huntress

Although the JSA has a few more members than the JLA, they are overloaded with "regular guys in masks" - Batman, Huntress, Robin, Black Canary, Mr. Terrific, Wildcat, and Sandman. Even accounting for the Atom's later atomic punch, that puts them at a disadvantage.

Where the JSA has a clear advantage is in magic. Between the Spectre, Dr. Fate, and Johnny Thunder, they've could wrap up a battle with the JLA in seconds on their lonesome. Zatanna and the Phantom Stranger are powerhouses in their own right, but they don't measure up.

If you're willing to call the duplicates a draw (just for the sake of argument), then the JSA has advantages in numbers on a few fronts. They've got a Batman, a Robin, and a Huntress to counter the JLA's Batman, as well as a Superman and a Powergirl to take out the JLA's Superman. The JLA has an advantage with two Hawkpeople to counter the JSA's singular Hawkman.

The JLA's clear advantage is in variety. They have a stretchy guy, a guy who commands sharks, a shrinky guy, a guy who shoots arrows, a gal who screams real loud, an android who creates tornadoes, a telepathic stretchy guy with near-superman strength, and a kid who can alter fires atomic blasts AND can rearrange molecules if he's given a few seconds to think about it. All the JSA has left in the tank at that point are couple of guys with (admittedly bitchin') cosmic rod technology, and Al Pratt's atomic punch.

Basically, if the JLA can somehow stop the Spectre from turning them into rubber ducks and rip off Fate's helmet, the JLA probably wins in a walk.

Good list, we've got the JLA down, but....(Critique time) I don't think Earth 2 Superman, or Batman & Robin were ever regular members or even part of the team. You also left out Dr. Midnight and Sandman & Sandy which were classic regular members. He also wanted the Spectre omitted, and was looking for some kind of continuation, so the question as to whether we should be putting earth 2 Wonder Woman, Black Canary, and the first version of the Huntress remains a question mark.

Figuring out the JSA is harder because you need someone who was reading the 1976 run, (I doubt we will find anyone for the 1940's run.) Below are links to all the major JSA comic runs, listing the heroes. The 1976 version starts at issue 58. I do not have the time or inclination to go through this, but if anyone wants to put together the classic team, with Geoff Johns run in mind, the links for appearances are below

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/All-Star_Comics_Vol_1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_D...ety_of_America
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/America_v..._Society_Vol_1
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_S..._America_Vol_1
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_S..._America_Vol_2
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_S..._America_Vol_3

[Jim Kelly]

Yes, Superman, Batman and possibly Robin were part of the 1940s JSA. They were always recognized as members and participated in adventures. You could argue they were honourary or reserve members--but then that was also true of Flash and Green Lantern for a period of time. And if you exclude Superman and Batman, then you have to exclude the original Red Tornado, Wildcat and Mr. Terrific, because their involvement in the 1940s JSA was just as limited.

In the 1960s and 1970s, Superman, Batman and Robin were all considered members and participated in cases. Batman seems to have been in semi-retirement with Robin carrying the bulk of the case load, but he still showed up for at least one meeting that I recall.

The operative adverb in the topic title is "Historically"; if we put the teams in a historical context from back in the day, they appear different than what they do now with all the retroactive continuity.

When the Justice League of America met the Justice Society of America in 1963, the JLA must have been totally in awe of the JSA. So early in the team's history, six of the nine JLA members had not yet become big stars, where the JSA were all legends and seasoned professionals with a wealth of war stories to tell.

[Ascended]

I think the JSA might edge the League out in terms of heroes with the most raw power; two classic members (Fate and the Thunderbolt) are basically plot device powerhouses. but I think the League is actually more evenly spread and in a fight have very good odds of pulling a win.

To stop the JSA, you mostly just have to stop 2-3 top tier powerhouses. The League however, is more than capable of still kicking serious ass if you take down Clark or Diana. So the League has an advantage here. All they have to do is take down the JSA's biggest guns and the rest should fall. But the JSA has to go for a near full team KO.

The biggest advantage the JSA have is the Thunderbolt. That thing might as well be the Spectre for it's raw plot device power levels and with just a few words, can end the battle. But stopping the genie is easy; you just gotta take down Jakeem. And the League has Barry Allen. Jay's fast, but he's not fast enough to stop Barry.

From there the League has to contend with Fate and Allan, both of whom are stupid crazy powerful, but not so powerful that Firestorm, Zatanna, or a Corpsman (Hal, John, whoever, take your pick) can't at least stall them. Zee can't take Fate in a brawl, but she can slow him down until the League finishes off the JSA's less powerful members and can back her up. Same goes for Allan; his experience makes him a serious threat (he's got "stubborn old man" willpower) but the League has individuals who can match him long enough for the rest of the League to pile on.

If the League can stop those guys, the rest will follow.

[The no face guy]

Yes, Superman, Batman and possibly Robin were part of the 1940s JSA. They were always recognized as members and participated in adventures. You could argue they were honourary or reserve members--but then that was also true of Flash and Green Lantern for a period of time. And if you exclude Superman and Batman, then you have to exclude the original Red Tornado, Wildcat and Mr. Terrific, because their involvement in the 1940s JSA was just as limited.

In the 1960s and 1970s, Superman, Batman and Robin were all considered members and participated in cases. Batman seems to have been in semi-retirement with Robin carrying the bulk of the case load, but he still showed up for at least one meeting that I recall.

The operative adverb in the topic title is "Historically"; if we put the teams in a historical context from back in the day, they appear different than what they do now with all the retroactive continuity.

When the Justice League of America met the Justice Society of America in 1963, the JLA must have been totally in awe of the JSA. So early in the team's history, six of the nine JLA members had not yet become big stars, where the JSA were all legends and seasoned professionals with a wealth of war stories to tell.

Provide me with the empirical evidence. Don't be lazy, go through the links. We are not talking about just the 1940's or reserve members, did you not read the previous posts? Which is why Phantom Stranger is not on the list for JLA. We are talking about the big mainstay members. Did you read the 1975 series, the 80's and early 90's mini series. Did you read the post in it's entirety.

I shall not commence with you further. When someone puts up a solid list based on diligent work, I shall surly compliment them.

Remember this is supposed to be a fun endeavour, not a negative one.

[ducklord]

Good list, we've got the JLA down, but....(Critique time) I don't think Earth 2 Superman, or Batman & Robin were ever regular members or even part of the team. You also left out Dr. Midnight and Sandman & Sandy which were classic regular members. He also wanted the Spectre omitted, and was looking for some kind of continuation, so the question as to whether we should be putting earth 2 Wonder Woman, Black Canary, and the first version of the Huntress remains a question mark.

Figuring out the JSA is harder because you need someone who was reading the 1976 run, (I doubt we will find anyone for the 1940's run.) Below are links to all the major JSA comic runs, listing the heroes. The 1976 version starts at issue 58. I do not have the time or inclination to go through this, but if anyone wants to put together the classic team, with Geoff Johns run in mind, the links for appearances are below

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/All-Star_Comics_Vol_1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_D...ety_of_America
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/America_v..._Society_Vol_1
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_S..._America_Vol_1
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_S..._America_Vol_2
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_S..._America_Vol_3

1) I can't believe I forgot Dr. Mid-Nite or Sandman. Add 'em to the pile. Sandy is tricky. He was never included in the team during the Golden Age, and the only time he appeared during the silver/bronze age is when he was turned into a sand monster. In short, I don't think he was ever a member of the JSA pre-Crisis (my arbitrary cut-off)
2) Superman and Batman are easier cases, I think. Although immediately elevated to honorary members in All-Star #3, they clearly participating in the founding of the JSA in their origin adventure, and also participated as JSA members in at least one annual JLA/JSA crossover (Batman only snuck into one, the Earth-S crossover, only a year before his death). Even though, they were rarely used, their appearances during the crossovers squarely plant them as JSA members in good standing during the lean years when the JSA had no title.

[Jim Kelly]

2) Superman and Batman are easier cases, I think. Although immediately elevated to honorary members in All-Star #3, they clearly participating in the founding of the JSA in their origin adventure,

They also participated in the adventures for ALL-STAR COMICS 7 and 36. Compare that with Mr. Terrific who only participated in ALL-STAR COMICS 24 (during the period when M.C. Gaines had separated All-American from the DC line of comics, so no DC characters could be used, only A-A characters). That's just taking into account the 1940s ALL-STAR COMICS run and not factoring in later continuity such as all the stories in ALL-STAR SQUADRON.

The honourary membership rule meant that any character who had their own comic book title could not be an active member. Since this was the case with Superman and Batman, that left them out of most adventures. Likewise, the Flash had to go on the honourary reserve list when ALL-FLASH QUARTERLY began. But like the World's Finest, Flash showed up for the charitable work in ALL-STAR COMICS 7. Green Lantern joined that list when he got his own title. Wonder Woman should have been on the list, too, when her solo title began, but I speculate that by making her the secretary they got around that rule so they could have her appear in every issue, even though she didn't normally go out on cases.

Readers were reminded of all these honourary members when new members were inducted--e.g. the form for Starman and Dr. Mid-Nite at the end of ALL-STAR 7 and the beginning of ALL-STAR 8. The same sort of thing was done for Junior Justice Society forms advertised in the comics and mailed out to new members.

After the war the rule was relaxed and Flash and GL came back--but Bats and Supes were too busy to attend meetings.

[The no face guy]

Very good. I appreciate your positivity. The JSA is a hard one to figure out, because they have been around for so long, but have always been (as much as I love them) a third tier super team in the DC universe. Hope someone comes up with a solid list.

[ducklord]

Very good. I appreciate your positivity. The JSA is a hard one to figure out, because they have been around for so long, but have always been (as much as I love them) a third tier super team in the DC universe. Hope someone comes up with a solid list.

It's odd that the very first super-hero team ever tends to get bumped to the 2nd tier even on their best days. There are plenty of meta-reasons for this:

1. Back when they were (almost) the only game in town (Golden Age), they never got much play outside of All-Star comics. Crossovers weren't really a thing back then.
2. When they returned for the Silver and Bronze Age, they were immediately consigned to Earth-2, a multiversal ghetto. Then came the Titans, and the Doom Patrol, and the Outsiders, and so on.
3. Post-Crisis, they were back in on the main Earth as the all-important inspirations for the modern age of heroes... only to be shuttled off to Ragnarok. Then they came back, and promptly got Zero Houred.
4. Finally, thanks in no small part to the success of Starman, the JSA came back with a vengeance. It supported two books, had a membership approaching the size of the Legion, and almost always had good writers and artists. During this brief period one can genuinely say that the JSA was DC's second most important team.
5. And then New 52 happened, and wiped them from the face of continuity. Sigh.

We'll see what happens next.

As for the JSA, I think we've finally got a good grip on the official membership from the beginning through the Crisis:
Superman (Kal-L)
Batman (Original Bruce Wayne)
Wonder Woman (Diana Prince)
Flash (Jay)
Green Lantern (Alan)
Hawkman (Carter)
Atom (Al)
Sandman (Wesley)
Dr. Fate (Kent)
Spectre (Jim)
Johnny Thunder
Starman (Ted)
Dr. Mid-Nite (Charles)
Wildcat (other Ted)
Black Canary (Dinah Drake)
Mr. Terrific (Terry)
Robin (Dick)
Red Tornado (John Smith)
Star-Spangled Kid (Sylvester)
Power Girl (Karen)
Huntress (Helena)

The robotic Red Tornado really should be added, as he was a member in good standing from his creation up until he joined the JLA some time after the incident with the Seven Soldiers.

Also, as much as I'd like to include the original Red Tornado in the JSA's membership, one pin-up drawing does not a member make. She got the invite, but didn't participate in any of their Golden/Silver/Bronze Age adventures.

When you think about it, it's impressive how stable both the JLA and the JSA's membership was until the Crisis. Even accounting for the JLDetroit era, both groups only had about 20 members through 25 and 45 years of publication. The post-crisis JLA membership probably numbers in the low 200's.