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  1. #136
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    A lazarus pit makes people crazy.
    I'd like to think so but this was Tim's thoughts /dream and at this point he's very new so doubt he's aware of lazarus pits.

  2. #137
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    A lazarus pit makes people crazy.
    No, not really. It's something we* fans* usually take as a fact, but it's not true most of the time as far as I know. It wasn't for Jason in the comics, it was just some retcon later on (*I may be remembering this wrong, but I think it was after UtH*), and it was speculation by Bruce, as far as I recall, which could be a way of denying the fact that Jason thinks differently than him. Didn't make Cass crazy, or Oliver Queen, I think. It apparently only happens when you overuse it.

    Also, that's Tim picturing Jason, probably based in what Dick and Bruce (maybe Alfred too, because I recall a panel of Alfred with this same argument) told him about the circumstances surrounding Jason's death. Which I think was a common place from the early 90's to the early 2000, when some people started to point out how an awful approach they were choosing, with this victim blaming and retcon of an otherwise fine character for what were the 90's mod in the end (the time when heroes tough and rough blossomed).
    Last edited by Zaresh; 04-01-2020 at 12:10 PM.
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  3. #138
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's just me speculating. It could've been Miller wanted full creative control over the character. I don't think anyone's explicitly confirmed why it happened.


    Miller asked for her to be taken out. Tomasi did not get his approval and Miller had previously said at a con that he doesn't want her near the main Universe.

    "I’m really glad every time they do a Batman movie and they don’t use Carrie Kelly. I’m just so protective of those characters and don’t want anybody else to touch them."

    https://ew.com/article/2016/10/07/fr...ork-comic-con/

    "I’m talking over some projects with DC that probably aren’t best to discuss until we get serious about them, most of them involving Carrie Kelly, who I want to use for some major projects."


    He said that he considers Carrie the lead character in the DKR titles and that he's planning more titles in the verse starring Carrie and Lara going forward so guess he didn't want her slumming it as Robin's drama teacher.


    I too would have liked to see what Tomasi had planned for Carrie. The Batman and Two face story was supposed to give us her background and tell us more about the character but it was changed last minute and her image on the cover was erased and the solicits erased all mentions of her [well aside from the ones still put on the DC website]

    The
    Last edited by dietrich; 04-01-2020 at 12:29 PM.

  4. #139
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    To be fair, Jason's death was as much a surprise to the folks at DC as it was to everyone else. Sure, when they set up the telephone hotline to determine Jason's fate in A Death in the Family, they knew that it was possible that he might actually die; but from what I've read of their reactions, they didn't seriously think it was actually going to happen. I mean, in that day and age, that sort of thing just wasn't done.
    Wasn't done? They'd just killed Flash and Supergirl a couple of years prior.
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  5. #140
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Frank Miller allegedly has an upcoming Carrie Kelley book. This time I believe it will be out because he's been cranking things out of late, comparatively speaking. Tomasi might have had great plans for her, but Miller gets more carte blanche and I fear Tomasi's story would have created the kinds of issues we are discussion that happened with Jason Todd, where the depiction gets morphed over time and dilutes the character. Might have been ok, sure, after all it is Tomasi.
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  6. #141
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Frank Miller allegedly has an upcoming Carrie Kelley book. This time I believe it will be out because he's been cranking things out of late, comparatively speaking. Tomasi might have had great plans for her, but Miller gets more carte blanche and I fear Tomasi's story would have created the kinds of issues we are discussion that happened with Jason Todd, where the depiction gets morphed over time and dilutes the character. Might have been ok, sure, after all it is Tomasi.
    Not allegedly - Ben Caldwell has been hard at work on the art for two years.
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  7. #142
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Frank Miller allegedly has an upcoming Carrie Kelley book. This time I believe it will be out because he's been cranking things out of late, comparatively speaking. Tomasi might have had great plans for her, but Miller gets more carte blanche and I fear Tomasi's story would have created the kinds of issues we are discussion that happened with Jason Todd, where the depiction gets morphed over time and dilutes the character. Might have been ok, sure, after all it is Tomasi.
    Agreed. Tomasi's Carrie was okay but her 1st appearance, how her role was set up and how she was in stories. I just never got the sense that her character was being set for the long haul. It didn't feel like tomasi was trying to set a regular spot nor did it feel like he had really put all that much into his long term plans for her.

    it was just random.


    Nor did he consider how her presence might muck up the DKR universe as the last Robin.

    Granted the universe has had a few duds but it's unique world and with it's own unique look, feel and cast. I'd rather writers not start moving the characters about.

    Miller is certainly expanding the world and Golden Child looks interesting. Can't wait to read it.

    Carrie in the nu52 was a fun guest spot.

  8. #143
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Agreed. Tomasi's Carrie was okay but her 1st appearance, how her role was set up and how she was in stories. I just never got the sense that her character was being set for the long haul. It didn't feel like tomasi was trying to set a regular spot nor did it feel like he had really put all that much into his long term plans for her.

    it was just random.

    Nor did he consider how her presence might muck up the DKR universe as the last Robin.

    Granted the universe has had a few duds but it's unique world and with it's own unique look, feel and cast. I'd rather writers not start moving the characters about.

    Miller is certainly expanding the world and Golden Child looks interesting. Can't wait to read it.

    Carrie in the nu52 was a fun guest spot.
    As I've said previously, I really liked Carrie in the Batman and Robin issues she was in. I don't know if it was because they stopped any further plotlines early enough, but it never felt like she was cut off - she was just a part of the story that wasn't huge, but was a fun Easter Egg. Didn't hurt that Patrick Gleason drew her so well.

    Golden Child was a lot of fun, at least the stuff focusing on Lara, Jon, and Carrie.
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  9. #144
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Not allegedly - Ben Caldwell has been hard at work on the art for two years.
    Thats great, I look forward to reading it. She is such a great character.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Agreed. Tomasi's Carrie was okay but her 1st appearance, how her role was set up and how she was in stories. I just never got the sense that her character was being set for the long haul. It didn't feel like tomasi was trying to set a regular spot nor did it feel like he had really put all that much into his long term plans for her.

    it was just random.


    Nor did he consider how her presence might muck up the DKR universe as the last Robin.

    Granted the universe has had a few duds but it's unique world and with it's own unique look, feel and cast. I'd rather writers not start moving the characters about.

    Miller is certainly expanding the world and Golden Child looks interesting. Can't wait to read it.

    Carrie in the nu52 was a fun guest spot.
    Carrie in B&R was a pleasant surprise, but just random like you said. Its like someone higher up, probably Didio, instructed Tomasi to use her and so he did.
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  10. #145
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Note that her first appearance was at the end of an issue that was part of a line-wide marketing gimmick, where every comic included some off-the-wall element in it. (IIRC, it was called “WTF?”) It was also in the first part of a five-pay story arc where Bruce was struggling with the death of Damian (and in fact, each part was named after one of the five stages of grief). I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the original plans had been to make her the next Robin for real, before a combination of a fan backlash against Damian's death and Miller's protectiveness of the character nixed the idea.
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  11. #146
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Note that her first appearance was at the end of an issue that was part of a line-wide marketing gimmick, where every comic included some off-the-wall element in it. (IIRC, it was called “WTF?”) It was also in the first part of a five-pay story arc where Bruce was struggling with the death of Damian (and in fact, each part was named after one of the five stages of grief). I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the original plans had been to make her the next Robin for real, before a combination of a fan backlash against Damian's death and Miller's protectiveness of the character nixed the idea.
    That, to me, seems very unlikely. Unless we theorize that Snyder's stated reason for not using Damian - he's too young, like Snyder's son at the time - created an overreaction and desire to make Robin a college age adult.
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  12. #147
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    If they wanted a college age adult Robin, they could've just put Tim back in the role.
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  13. #148
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    If they wanted a college age adult Robin, they could've just put Tim back in the role.
    Tim wasn't college-age at the time, and was busy with the N52 Teen Titans.

    Frankly, I'm glad they didn't try to make that Carrie Kelley into Robin. But they've done stranger things, so I wouldn't have put it past them.
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  14. #149
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Before Flashpoint, he was busy with the TT while also maintaining a solo book. Being a Teen Titan is no obstacle.
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  15. #150
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Before Flashpoint, he was busy with the TT while also maintaining a solo book. Being a Teen Titan is no obstacle.
    Editorial-wise it might've been, because I think the Titans had a different editorial office then the Bat-books and they had more creative control over Tim at the time. At least that's my recollection.

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