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  1. #61
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    I do wish they had done a Carrie story — except that Frank Miller would have written it, and he's gone off the rails. That, and Carrie is explicitly part of a different timeline: the Dark Knight setting, where Bruce recruited Dick by kidnapping him and trying to force him to eat rats. No wonder Dick ended up becoming the new Joker. Fortunately, if Miller had penned a Carrie story for this, it would have had to be set before she abandoned the Robin identity and started calling herself Catgirl. I do think that a version of Carrie could have been incorporated into the mainstream DCU (and I'm not referring to the one who appeared during the Grief storyline in the wake of Damian's death); but that ship has sailed: she could have been introduced as a sort of “younger sister” Robin to Terry McGinnis' Batman. But they decided to go with having Matt become Robin.

    One nitpick: the extent of Carrie juggling Robin with a normal life in Dark Knight Returns amounted to one scene where Alfred picked Carrie up from school; and there's no indication that she ever went back. In effect, her appearance in the junkyard was her audition for the role; Alfred picking her up from school was his acceptance of her. Having parents? Technically, yes; but they were the ultimate absentee parents: you never saw her interact with them even once; she walked away from them without even looking back; and the last time you hear them (because you never see them), it becomes abundantly clear threat they've almost completely forgotten that Carrie even exists. Dick had more contact with his parents than Carrie did.

    While Tim and Carrie hit several of the same notes, Tim isn't a knock-off of Carrie. For every point of similarity you can find, I can find a difference. For instance, Tim didn't seek to become Robin; he sought to get Dick and Bruce back together. He only became Robin at Dick's insistence — though that differentiates him from most of the other Robins in that he wasn't driven to become Robin by a tragedy. He's different from every other Robin in that he had a functional family life during most of his time as Robin, until Didio decreed that they needed to be killed off to make him more edgy.
    I think it would have been fun to have a Carrie story, too. Though I look at The Golden Child as a Carrie story which showed her off to great advantage, and I'm very excited about the Miller/Caldwell YA graphic novel about Carrie. I think Miller's come back to the rails more or less - I think Dark Knight: Master Race was quite enjoyable, The Last Crusade and The Golden Child were solid, and Superman: Year One was at least not as wild as ASBAR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Frankly, we don't need to be bashing any Robin. All of them have their own points of interest (though in Stephanie's case, she didn't get a chance to come into her own until long after her time as Robin).
    Well, well said. And I believe that Steph's increased profile and the palpable sense of injustice around how editorial treated her when it came to her time as Robin was a huge part of why the fans embraced her as Batgirl. (Also, Bill Willingham did a video on Saturday where he talks at length about how she came to be Robin, and how he tried to keep her alive because people really liked her as Robin: https://youtu.be/liIY1lnwyjY

    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    True enough. That said, it was very much a Lobdell thing: prior to the New 52, the Jason/Tim dynamic was downright hostile, even moreso than the Tim/Damian dynamic.
    Yes, but that doesn't make it non-canon. Or insignificant.
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  2. #62
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Frankly, we don't need to be bashing any Robin. All of them have their own points of interest (though in Stephanie's case, she didn't get a chance to come into her own until long after her time as Robin).
    I second this, with all my heart.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It's hardly just Tec and Batman and Robin Eternal. Lobdell also featured Tim and Jason having an improving relationship in Red Hood/Arsenal. And it wasn't just one panel in Batman and Robin Eternal - it was at least 4 issues of consistent development.
    Tim had more interactions and team ups with Jason than with every other Batfamily member (outiside of Tynions Tec Run) since flashpoint.
    At this point in continuity it is not ooc that he asks Jason.

    I can't remember any team us with just Tim and Damian, or any non hostile interaction.

  4. #64
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Tim had more interactions and team ups with Jason than with every other Batfamily member (outiside of Tynions Tec Run) since flashpoint.
    At this point in continuity it is not ooc that he asks Jason.

    I can't remember any team us with just Tim and Damian, or any non hostile interaction.
    No team-ups, but the first few issues of Teen Titans in Rebirth had Damian calling Tim "great", and in Deathstroke vs. Batman, he said that Tim was completely committed to Batman and would never betray him. And I wouldn't say that Tynion wrote Damian and Tim as "non-hostile" - just that he also had that kind of grudging respect between the two of them.
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  5. #65
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    They've become like bickering brothers.
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  6. #66
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    Another point when it comes to Steph vs. Carrie, is that while Steph was only Robin for a very short time, she was a character that frequently appeared in the comics for a pretty long time, which makes her a far more flashed out and developed Character than Carrie.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    More integrated into the setting, actually. Granted, her primary tie was as Tim's girlfriend; but she had first been introduced in the pages of Batman (or was it Detective Comics? I forget). So from the get-go, she was on Batman's radar also. And during her brief stint as Robin, she also established a bond with Cassandra. And that's just limiting the discussion to what came before War Games: after Dixon brought her back and she became Batgirl, she got linked to Barbara and to Damian as well.

    Bottom line, she's part of the mainstream DCU. Carrie's time as Robin is significant from a “history of the comics” standpoint, which is why she got recognized in the 80th Anniversary special — and why I wish she had gotten a story, too; but even at the time she was first published, she was “the future Robin”; and that quickly became “a possible future Robin” and then “an alternate timeline Robin”; she was never plugged into the DCU as tightly as Stephanie has always been.

    You'll note that Matt McGinnis' Robin didn't get any mention in this book, and probably for much the same reason why Carrie didn't get a story: he's part of what DC is currently touting as “the future”, at least until such time as events in the present render that no longer viable. And unlike Carrie, he hasn't left a mark.
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  8. #68
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    More integrated into the setting, actually. Granted, her primary tie was as Tim's girlfriend; but she had first been introduced in the pages of Batman (or was it Detective Comics? I forget). So from the get-go, she was on Batman's radar also. And during her brief stint as Robin, she also established a bond with Cassandra. And that's just limiting the discussion to what came before War Games: after Dixon brought her back and she became Batgirl, she got linked to Barbara and to Damian as well.

    Bottom line, she's part of the mainstream DCU. Carrie's time as Robin is significant from a “history of the comics” standpoint, which is why she got recognized in the 80th Anniversary special — and why I wish she had gotten a story, too; but even at the time she was first published, she was “the future Robin”; and that quickly became “a possible future Robin” and then “an alternate timeline Robin”; she was never plugged into the DCU as tightly as Stephanie has always been.

    You'll note that Matt McGinnis' Robin didn't get any mention in this book, and probably for much the same reason why Carrie didn't get a story: he's part of what DC is currently touting as “the future”, at least until such time as events in the present render that no longer viable. And unlike Carrie, he hasn't left a mark.
    Detective Comics #647-649.

    Yes, I do have that memorized. Why do you ask?

    Her ties to Cass actually go way back to the early 2000s, in Cass's Batgirl series, long before she was Robin.

    The same goes for (sadly) the We Are Robins (I miss Riko so much! And Dre and Dax!), Jarro (I don't miss that, but I know people seem to like him), RobinBot, the Robin from the future in the Annual where she was on a starship or something, Pirate Batman Robin, or many others.
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  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Yeah; I would have liked a sort of “where are they now?” story for the “We Are Robin” gang, possibly told with Duke as the viewpoint character. Just have Signal checking up on his old friends.

    And a “Robin, the Toy Wonder” (from DC1M) story could have been used as a framing device to explore all the other iterations of Robin that have cropped up over the last 80 years, with the Toy Wonder regaling his colleagues in YJ1M with tales about many Robins, real and imagined, throughout 853 centuries of history, such as the Elseworlds Annuals that coincided with Zero Hour and the Legends of Dead Earth Annuals that came a few years later. That said, I think they're all from the 90s; other than Carrie, Matt, and the We Are Robins, I don't think we've gotten any alternate Robins before or since. So I'm not surprised that nothing of the sort made it in.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 03-23-2020 at 04:10 PM.
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  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    I do wish they had done a Carrie story — except that Frank Miller would have written it, and he's gone off the rails. That, and Carrie is explicitly part of a different timeline: the Dark Knight setting, where Bruce recruited Dick by kidnapping him and trying to force him to eat rats. No wonder Dick ended up becoming the new Joker. Fortunately, if Miller had penned a Carrie story for this, it would have had to be set before she abandoned the Robin identity and started calling herself Catgirl. I do think that a version of Carrie could have been incorporated into the mainstream DCU (and I'm not referring to the one who appeared during the Grief storyline in the wake of Damian's death); but that ship has sailed: she could have been introduced as a sort of “younger sister” Robin to Terry McGinnis' Batman. But they decided to go with having Matt become Robin.

    One nitpick: the extent of Carrie juggling Robin with a normal life in Dark Knight Returns amounted to one scene where Alfred picked Carrie up from school; and there's no indication that she ever went back. In effect, her appearance in the junkyard was her audition for the role; Alfred picking her up from school was his acceptance of her. Having parents? Technically, yes; but they were the ultimate absentee parents: you never saw her interact with them even once; she walked away from them without even looking back; and the last time you hear them (because you never see them), it becomes abundantly clear threat they've almost completely forgotten that Carrie even exists. Dick had more contact with his parents than Carrie did.

    While Tim and Carrie hit several of the same notes, Tim isn't a knock-off of Carrie. For every point of similarity you can find, I can find a difference. For instance, Tim didn't seek to become Robin; he sought to get Dick and Bruce back together. He only became Robin at Dick's insistence — though that differentiates him from most of the other Robins in that he wasn't driven to become Robin by a tragedy. He's different from every other Robin in that he had a functional family life during most of his time as Robin, until Didio decreed that they needed to be killed off to make him more edgy.

    Frankly, we don't need to be bashing any Robin. All of them have their own points of interest (though in Stephanie's case, she didn't get a chance to come into her own until long after her time as Robin).
    Being factual isn't bashing. Tim is a blatant copy of Carrie. It's only fair to be honest since we are after all celebrating ALL Robins

    To say that Tim didn't want to be Robin is semantics. yes he tried to get Nightwing to do it and for whatever reason Nightwing and Batman wouldn't do it had to be B&R.

    Have you just not read the story of Carrie or what?
    Carrie had a family that was as functional as Tim's negligent parents
    carrie wasn't driven by tragedy to become Robin.

    There are 3 differences
    Tim is a boy
    Tim isn't Ginger
    Tim doesn't have glasses
    both even became Robin age 13 come on mate.
    Last edited by dietrich; 03-23-2020 at 04:24 PM.

  11. #71
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Yeah; I would have liked a sort of “where are they now?” story for the “We Are Robin” gang, possibly told with Duke as the viewpoint character. Just have Signal checking up on his old friends.

    And a “Robin, the Toy Wonder” (from DC1M) story could have been used as a framing device to explore all the other iterations of Robin that have cropped up over the last 80 years, with the Toy Wonder regaling his colleagues in YJ1M with tales about many Robins, real and imagined, throughout 853 centuries of history, such as the Elseworlds Annuals that coincided with Zero Hour and the Legends of Dead Earth Annuals that came a few years later. That said, I think they're all from the 90s; other than Carrie, Matt, and the We Are Robins, I don't think we've gotten any alternate Robins before or since. So I'm not surprised that nothing of the sort made it in.
    I would love seeing those We Are Robin kids again. But I wish DC would use the holiday anthologies to play with these types of characters.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Being factual isn't bashing.
    Being factual involves dealing with the facts, and not just cherry-picking the ones that support your position while ignoring or downplaying the ones that counter it. For instance:

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    To say that Tim didn't want to be Robin is semantics.
    That would be downplaying a fact that counters your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    yes he tried to get Nightwing to do it and for whatever reason Nightwing and Batman wouldn't do it had to be B&R.
    “For whatever reason” was that Dick had obligations outside of Gotham and couldn't return full-time to be Bruce's partner again. That, and he saw in Tim the potential to be what Bruce needed; which is why he encouraged Tim to take over as Robin. Again, Tim didn't get involved with the goal of becoming Robin. Unlike Carrie, who actively sought out the role.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Have you just not read the story of Carrie or what?
    I'll go with “or what”, as you haven't demonstrated any lack of knowledge on my part about Carrie.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Carrie had a family that was as functional as Tim's negligent parents
    I'll agree that before Tim became Robin, his parents were somewhat negligent — though nowhere near as much so as Carrie's “hey, didn't we have a kid?” parents. And starting in the third Robin miniseries (which was basically setup for his ongoing series), after his dad got out of the hospital, Tim had a close relationship with his father right up until Captain Boomerang murdered him, a full decade of publication. Again, what little relationship Carrie had with her parents ended the moment Bruce took her on as Robin.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    carrie wasn't driven by tragedy to become Robin.
    I never said that Carrie was driven by tragedy to become Robin; I said that Tim is different from most Robins in that respect. Though looking over the roster, I overstated that: in truth, only Dick and Jason became Robin due to tragedy. He's different from Carrie in that he didn't seek it out; but then, he's different from Stephanie and Damian in the same way. So: not tragic (like Dick and Jason), but not sought out (like Carrie, Stephanie, and Damian).
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  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I'll agree that before Tim became Robin, his parents were somewhat negligent — though nowhere near as much so as Carrie's “hey, didn't we have a kid?” parents. And starting in the third Robin miniseries (which was basically setup for his ongoing series), after his dad got out of the hospital, Tim had a close relationship with his father right up until Captain Boomerang murdered him, a full decade of publication. Again, what little relationship Carrie had with her parents ended the moment Bruce took her on as Robin.
    A lot of people seem to overlook this altogether. Yes, Tim and his father still had some problems during Tim's solo series (a lot the actual conflict came from his father being worried/angry that Tim would disappear and then either turn up back or somewhere dangerous after over 24 hours and tell Jack nothing or lie to him). But they also had good times and closeness and really did both work towards rebuilding their relationship (full disclosure - I read from issue 1 to 113 but stopped because I did not want to get into War Games, since I knew where that storyline went and how it crapped on Steph and wasn't keen on reading more Bruce being horrible from what I had read about the birthday, either, and I have only read scattered issues after). And Dana was the perfect superhero's stepmom, always sure Tim had a good explanation for whatever he did, even if Tim wasn't volunteering it.

    Have read the first 12 issues of Red Robin. Did not like at all. Much prefer old Tim. Then again, I like older versions/characterizations of Dick, Barbara, Steph, and Bruce, too. And Kon. And Ollie and even Dinah. And others. I guess because I started reading with 1990s stories, and then kinda ended up going backwards, rather than forwards with my reading. There are a few I like more modern versions of more, but that's generally because I didn't have much feeling for the older versions. I do tend to get attached to specific characterizations, which can be a problem when character change so much over time and in different writers' hands.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-23-2020 at 05:21 PM.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Being factual involves dealing with the facts, and not just cherry-picking the ones that support your position while ignoring or downplaying the ones that counter it. For instance:

    That would be downplaying a fact that counters your position.

    “For whatever reason” was that Dick had obligations outside of Gotham and couldn't return full-time to be Bruce's partner again. That, and he saw in Tim the potential to be what Bruce needed; which is why he encouraged Tim to take over as Robin. Again, Tim didn't get involved with the goal of becoming Robin. Unlike Carrie, who actively sought out the role.

    I'll go with “or what”, as you haven't demonstrated any lack of knowledge on my part about Carrie.


    I'll agree that before Tim became Robin, his parents were somewhat negligent — though nowhere near as much so as Carrie's “hey, didn't we have a kid?” parents. And starting in the third Robin miniseries (which was basically setup for his ongoing series), after his dad got out of the hospital, Tim had a close relationship with his father right up until Captain Boomerang murdered him, a full decade of publication. Again, what little relationship Carrie had with her parents ended the moment Bruce took her on as Robin.


    I never said that Carrie was driven by tragedy to become Robin; I said that Tim is different from most Robins in that respect. Though looking over the roster, I overstated that: in truth, only Dick and Jason became Robin due to tragedy. He's different from Carrie in that he didn't seek it out; but then, he's different from Stephanie and Damian in the same way. So: not tragic (like Dick and Jason), but not sought out (like Carrie, Stephanie, and Damian).
    Facts are facts. Cherry picking is picking the one element that can not possibly be applied to Carrie. The Nightwing factor. Why don't you contest any other of the facts?

    Tim just like Carrie was a 13 year old fan who wanted to help. Tim later made it clear that he wanted to impress Batman and Robin.
    Later in Rebirth Tec he even says he was the only one that could help Batman when pressed by OZ why he had to be him.

    The fact that you are cherry picking, went on to try to use the Tim didn't come from tragedy, The fact that Tim had parents all as supporting evidence or even introduced them means that YES you don't know Carrie's story.


    Again you are yet to offer any difference between Tim and carrie beyond the debatable single point that played out differently because of the presence of Nightwing in one story.

    According to you the difference between Tim and Carrie is that Tim didn't want to be Robin.

    The similarities

    The 3rd Robin a 13 year old fan who figured out Batman's Identity.
    Saved batman
    didn't come from tragedy ie had living parents
    Impressed batman with her brains and skills.
    worked really hard before she was allowed to go on the field
    had poor physical skills which she compensated for with her brains.
    A dark batman who needed Robin to be his light.

    Rich talking about bashing Robins as you attempt to give Carrie the Bill Finger treatment

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    More integrated into the setting, actually. Granted, her primary tie was as Tim's girlfriend; but she had first been introduced in the pages of Batman (or was it Detective Comics? I forget). So from the get-go, she was on Batman's radar also. And during her brief stint as Robin, she also established a bond with Cassandra. And that's just limiting the discussion to what came before War Games: after Dixon brought her back and she became Batgirl, she got linked to Barbara and to Damian as well.

    Bottom line, she's part of the mainstream DCU. Carrie's time as Robin is significant from a history of the comics standpoint, which is why she got recognized in the 80th Anniversary special and why I wish she had gotten a story, too; but even at the time she was first published, she was the future Robin; and that quickly became a possible future Robin and then an alternate timeline Robin; she was never plugged into the DCU as tightly as Stephanie has always been.

    You'll note that Matt McGinnis' Robin didn't get any mention in this book, and probably for much the same reason why Carrie didn't get a story: he's part of what DC is currently touting as the future, at least until such time as events in the present render that no longer viable. And unlike Carrie, he hasn't left a mark.
    If you bring Carrie and Matt in, than you had also think abut bringing in Bruce Wayne Jr. and giving pre crisis Jason his own story.

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