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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    The fact that you are cherry picking, went on to try to use the Tim didn't come from tragedy,
    I don't think Tim came from tragedy, either. His first pursuit of Batman to help and his first time donning the suit and his ultimate decision to become Robin were to help, without being motivated by personal loss. He had some difficulties, but not tragedy at that time (that came later), and he wasn't motivated by tragedy (nor was post-COIE Jason, who was in a situation to be "rescued" but not driven to do what he did out of an emotional reaction to his tragedy).

    Later in Rebirth Tec he even says he was the only one that could help Batman when pressed by OZ why he had to be him.
    I don't think it was intentional by writers, but the entire intro for Tim came off very unhealthily to me (his expectation of Dick just giving up his entire life to go back to sidekick status, which would have been horribly unhealthy). And the role he had to play to help Bruce was extremely troublesome, as it's illustrative of Bruce's inability to deal with equals. Of course, Bruce really didn't consistently have those kind of problems after Jason's death - they were only written in when Tim was introduced. I don't mind that so much, but the very heavy victim-blaming of Jason in the era, I do. Moreso than that, though, in hindsight, Tim didn't really "fix" anything. He papered over the cracks, certainly (meaning Bruce got a bit better in the comics for a while) but Bruce got much less emotionally stable and more emotionally abusive over time (and real time is so much shorter than comic time, so only two-three years), so I don't feel like it ended up doing long-term good, even if they meant it to.

    The thing to me is "Batman needs a Robin" had been used in a very different way in Batman #416, and the issues are close enough together I can't help but think of that and wonder if maybe it was intentional that it be "not right" when Tim said it, but they really don't seem to have been going that way to me.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-24-2020 at 05:28 AM.

  2. #77
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    It's ridiculous to complain about the robins sharing some similarities because it's inevitable since they all from the same franchise and filled the same role.

    Takes Digimon for example, all the four protagonists (since I haven't watched anything passed Frontier) share similarities since they fill the same role despite two being from different worlds. Still, they all stand on their own just like the robins because sharing similarities doesn't mean they are copies or "stealing" from each others.
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  3. #78
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    They did change things up for the fifth (Data Squad/Savers) Digimon protagonist. He was an older teen, who didn't wear goggles, and actually fought alongside the Digimon with his fists! They went back to the standard goggle kid for Fusion/Xros Wars, and Universe Applimonsters though.
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  4. #79
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    I really liked this one, the whole thing.

    Are they seriously moving Damian towards the Batman 666 version of him? This is the second story I've seen where its more then implied.
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  5. #80
    Incredible Member Midnighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post

    Of c Tim didn't really "fix" anything. He papered over the cracks, certainly (meaning Bruce got a bit better in the comics for a while) but Bruce got much less emotionally stable and more emotionally abusive over time (and real time is so much shorter than comic time, so only two-three years), so I don't feel like it ended up doing long-term good, even if they meant it to.
    The issues you're talking about were caused by Zatanna not Tim.

  6. #81
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    Batman was being reckless and more violent and Tim fixed that but Post-Crisis Batman became a jerk it was a steady process.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Tim wanted to be Robin. He asked to be Robin. he had a pitch ready it seems.

    tim said he never thought about becoming Robin but he's being a fanboy for quite sometime. Everything in the scans I posted tells me he has always fantasied about being Robin and this was his chance to make his dream reality.

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    Last edited by Fergus; 03-29-2020 at 11:52 AM.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Poor Bruce Batman was already darker before Jason's death don't think if after Jason we had stories that show him as more violent or reckless.

    If he was his actions might be down to grief. The man just lost his kid in a horrific manner so of course he's pissed off and hating all bad guys right due to one of them killing his son.

    I've never been a fan of batman needing a kid to stop him from going too far. He's a grown man. A very strong willed one at that he should be to do that for himself.

    I've never been a fan of this Origin story for a number of reasons

    As a parent myself the idea of all this happening behind Jack Drake's back.

    Bruce fresh off losing his son would risk another kid because the bad guys mustn't know they were able to kill Robin? Making a point. Jason wasn't just Robin he was Bruce's son first. It bothers me that this wasn't addressed. Bruce lost more than Robin that might have helped Tim understand why Batman was acting different and isn't willing to hire him.

    Batman knows the pain of losing a child so young yet he makes a decision that might result in another father going through the same pain. he's willing for risk jack drake losing his kid and being forced to deal with all the grief and heartache that bruce must still be feeling in this issue.

    10 year old Bruce vowed to never let another kid experience the pain of losing their parents. 30+ years old Bruce actively increasing the odds of a parent possibly experiencing the pain he's currently feeling.

    This story wasn't in favourable to Batman but I suppose it wasn't abut him. This was Tim's Story.

    Batfamily fans often complain about being used to drive his plot lines. Myself included.
    It goes both ways.

    Batman was turned into a hero who needs a kid present to keep him in check.
    A heroes whose answer to losing his son and side kick is to put another kid into the world that resulted in his death.
    Jason and his memory is nothing more than a suit despite his death being a huge factor in this story

    Yeah i don't like this story. Batman doesn't need Robin and as much as I enjoy Damian, Robin should have ended with Jason.
    At the very least Bruce if you care so much what the bad guys think then hire a short adult with fight training and field experience to wear the Robin suit.
    Last edited by Fergus; 03-29-2020 at 03:05 PM.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnighter View Post
    The issues you're talking about were caused by Zatanna not Tim.
    That's a complete retcon, though. That's not what was actually going in the late 1980s or in 2000. It's only retroactively someone else had to be blamed for Bruce's actions. And I never said Tim was responsible for Bruce's actions - I said Bruce didn't end up more emotionally stable or healthy (in the long-term) because of Tim being present. He didn't "break" Batman, but he didn't "fix" him, either - not in any lasting way.

    And the increased violence was only introduced to give Tim a reason to be "needed" anyway, rather than actually being consistently present since Jason's death. Mind you, Jason also suffered from an amp-up of it to give reasons for his death, so that's not new.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-29-2020 at 11:45 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    And the increased violence was only introduced to give Tim a reason to be "needed" anyway, rather than actually being consistently present since Jason's death. Mind you, Jason also suffered from an amp-up of it to give reasons for his death, so that's not new.
    Batman was already pretty violent before Jason died, read for example Batman #414.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    On the Tim Carrie debate.

    Yeah Dc totally copied the miller verse formula.

    Carrie was a different take on Robin. She was different from the two before her.
    Tim has pretty much all the new elements [aside from gender] Miller added into make Carrie different. The same changes Miller that redefining the Dynamic Duo's working dynamic are also present in Tim and Bruce's as partners.

    Carries folks being druggies and Tim's working all the time don't matter what does is that both kids often alone or forgotten meaning thus how they were able to balance Home study and robin duties. It also made it easier to believe a kid sneaking out all night without the folks finding out.
    Also explains how they are able to get hurt so many times without the folks getting seriously concerned.

    There is nothing wrong with making copies especially when the copy has managed to become more established than the original as is the case with Tim.

    How many times have we all seen comments like:

    Tim was the 1st Robin to figure out Bruce's Identity

    Batman saved all the other Tim is the Robin who saved Batman

    All the other Robins came from tragedy Tim didn't he had living parents

    tim was just a normal kid or a Batman robin fan

    All the others needed Robin Tim Chose to be Robin

    Tim isn't as good a fighter as the other Robins he's smart.

    Detective good with tech

    Tim worked really hard to earn the Mantle

    [I copied these from a Favourite Robins Polls and a thread about changing the the red robin id on this forum so I know some of yall have seen them ]

    These are all elements introduced by Miller in his reworking of Robin. The things that made Carrie different. They were posted as Things that makes Tim's different, set him apart or make him such a good/best Robin.

    That's how much Tim has surpassed the original. Fans boldly posting these on a forum for people who read Batman so very likely to have read a well known series like the DKR.

    [aside from that nonsense about Tim being the only Robin that chose to be Robin. They all did, they all worked their arses off training and they all earned it]

    Carrie and Tim isn't the 1st time DC has Copy taped Robins.
    they did it with Dick Grayson and Original Jason

  13. #88
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Remember when Peter Tomasi randomly threw Carrie Kelley into the main continuity in his Batman and Robin run? Those were weird times .

  14. #89
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Remember when Peter Tomasi randomly threw Carrie Kelley into the main continuity in his Batman and Robin run? Those were weird times .
    I actually really liked Carrie in B&R.
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  15. #90
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I actually really liked Carrie in B&R.
    I mean, she was just...kind of there? He didn't really do much with her before she just kind of disappeared.

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