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  1. #91
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, she was just...kind of there? He didn't really do much with her before she just kind of disappeared.
    I liked the detail that she brought with Damian's acting, also as a civilian lens into how Bruce is hiding Damian's death, plus I thought her design and personality were very fun.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  2. #92
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I liked the detail that she brought with Damian's acting, also as a civilian lens into how Bruce is hiding Damian's death, plus I thought her design and personality were very fun.
    She had potential, but she came and went so quickly I sometimes forget she even appeared...guess it makes me curious what Tomasi had planned before he got the go-ahed to bring Damian back.

  3. #93
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    She had potential, but she came and went so quickly I sometimes forget she even appeared...guess it makes me curious what Tomasi had planned before he got the go-ahed to bring Damian back.
    I didn't realize that Carrie was there because he hadn't gotten the go-ahead. I thought she was yanked because Frank Miller pulled her because he didn't want any confusion or competition for Dark Knight: Master Race.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  4. #94
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I didn't realize that Carrie was there because he hadn't gotten the go-ahead. I thought she was yanked because Frank Miller pulled her because he didn't want any confusion or competition for Dark Knight: Master Race.
    That's just me speculating. It could've been Miller wanted full creative control over the character. I don't think anyone's explicitly confirmed why it happened.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's just me speculating. It could've been Miller wanted full creative control over the character. I don't think anyone's explicitly confirmed why it happened.
    Tomasi said he wasn't allowed to use her. Miller has put a stop on her ever being used in the main comics universe. She is allowed in other media like cartoons, films

    Which might explain why she didn't get a story or even a page. just a cover.

    I'll post a link to the interview or article that explained why tomasi had to stop writing her.

    later, once i've had some sleep.
    Last edited by Fergus; 03-29-2020 at 09:50 PM.

  6. #96
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    On the Tim Carrie debate.

    Yeah Dc totally copied the miller verse formula.

    Carrie was a different take on Robin. She was different from the two before her.
    Tim has pretty much all the new elements [aside from gender] Miller added into make Carrie different. The same changes Miller that redefining the Dynamic Duo's working dynamic are also present in Tim and Bruce's as partners.

    Carries folks being druggies and Tim's working all the time don't matter what does is that both kids often alone or forgotten meaning thus how they were able to balance Home study and robin duties. It also made it easier to believe a kid sneaking out all night without the folks finding out.
    Also explains how they are able to get hurt so many times without the folks getting seriously concerned.

    There is nothing wrong with making copies especially when the copy has managed to become more established than the original as is the case with Tim.

    How many times have we all seen comments like:

    Tim was the 1st Robin to figure out Bruce's Identity

    Batman saved all the other Tim is the Robin who saved Batman

    All the other Robins came from tragedy Tim didn't he had living parents

    tim was just a normal kid or a Batman robin fan

    All the others needed Robin Tim Chose to be Robin

    Tim isn't as good a fighter as the other Robins he's smart.

    Detective good with tech

    Tim worked really hard to earn the Mantle

    [I copied these from a Favourite Robins Polls and a thread about changing the the red robin id on this forum so I know some of yall have seen them ]

    These are all elements introduced by Miller in his reworking of Robin. The things that made Carrie different. They were posted as Things that makes Tim's different, set him apart or make him such a good/best Robin.

    That's how much Tim has surpassed the original. Fans boldly posting these on a forum for people who read Batman so very likely to have read a well known series like the DKR.

    [aside from that nonsense about Tim being the only Robin that chose to be Robin. They all did, they all worked their arses off training and they all earned it]

    Carrie and Tim isn't the 1st time DC has Copy taped Robins.
    they did it with Dick Grayson and Original Jason
    One nitpick: Carrie didn't figure out Batman's secret identity. Bruce told her who he was. Tim is the first (and only) Robin to figure out who Batman is.

    Another nitpick: while Carrie was definitely portrayed as smart, she was never portrayed as a natural detective. Good with tech, yeah; detective, not so much. I'm not saying that she was bad at it; frankly, there's not enough evidence to go on, because we never see her doing any honest-to-goodness detective work in DKR. The closest she gets is some snooping, where she overhears something important (“we're gathering at the junkyard”) and acts on it: the extent of her detective work is “if something big is going down there, he might show up”. And that's fine; it's not her role in the story to piece together clues. Her role in DKR is to be Bruce's helper in the field, being young and vibrant and pulling him out of messes that he couldn't get himself out of because he was getting too old for this. Indeed, she never shows any special genius at detective work in any of the sequels — not that they'd count even if she did, because Tim had already been Robin for over a decade by the time Dark Knight Strikes Again came out: anything new added to her character from that point on that overlaps with Tim would have been a case of her borrowing from him, not the other way around.

    The main area where she and Tim overlap is that both of them were the Robins who earned the job by saving Batman. No other Robin can claim that, but both of them can.

    And again, the fact that Carrie's parents were druggies and Tim's parents weren't wasn't much of a difference before each of them became Robin; but it was a massive difference after: in Carrie's case, her parents were literally never heard from again. In Tim's case, his dad came back, renounced his absentee ways, and became an integral part of Tim's life. Carrie very quickly ended up moving into Wayne Manor and quickly became Bruce's de facto daughter; Tim spent over 2/3 of his career as Robin living with his dad. And even after that, Tim never really moved into Wayne Manor: in the immediate wake of his father's death, he concocted a scheme to get himself declared as an emancipated minor so that he wouldn't have to move in with Bruce. And while Bruce eventually did adopt him, he was already very much his own man by then.

    I have great respect for both Carrie and Tim; and I'm not saying the things I'm saying to denigrate Carrie. But I just don't see Tim as a knock-off of Carrie. It's not like what makes her special depends on Tim not being special.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Bruce told her who he was. Tim is the first (and only) Robin to figure out who Batman is.
    Pre Crisis Jason did that too, even if it was just by accident.

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Pre Crisis Jason did that too, even if it was just by accident.
    Eh. Stumbling over Batman's identity vs. figuring it out for yourself is a pretty big difference.
    Rogue wears rouge.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Eh. Stumbling over Batman's identity vs. figuring it out for yourself is a pretty big difference.
    Tim also kind of stumbled over it.

  10. #100
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Not really. Sure, the newsfeed showing Robin performing the same maneuver that Dick had performed back in the circus might be considered “stumbling over it” — except that Tim was smart enough to know what that meant. Jason learning Batman's identity was primarily luck; Tim learning it was primarily insight.
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  11. #101
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Tomasi said he wasn't allowed to use her. Miller has put a stop on her ever being used in the main comics universe. She is allowed in other media like cartoons, films

    Which might explain why she didn't get a story or even a page. just a cover.

    I'll post a link to the interview or article that explained why tomasi had to stop writing her.

    later, once i've had some sleep.
    Carrie got a cover and a pinup. Not a narrative page, but it is still a page in every version of the comic.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  12. #102
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Tim “figuring out” Batman’s identity is the equivalent of there being a guy who recognizes Clark Kent as Superman in glasses. Its not impressive, its creators cheating. Bending the common sense of that universe to try and make him artificially impressive.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 03-30-2020 at 12:47 AM.

  13. #103
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    And even after that, Tim never really moved into Wayne Manor: in the immediate wake of his father's death, he concocted a scheme to get himself declared as an emancipated minor so that he wouldn't have to move in with Bruce.
    Though that failed. He instead hired an actor to pretend to be his long lost uncle. But "Uncle Eddie" and his stepmother Dana were both killed (I always found it odd that Dana couldn't just be his guardian, considering she WAS married to Jack - Eddie shouldn't have been needed), which meant Tim had to allow Bruce to adopt him.
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  14. #104
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    I think was at least living partly living at Wayne Manor during his training (and I think even full time after his parents were poisoned), and for a short time after Bruce adopted him.
    But those were very short eras in terms of publication.

    And they also never clearly showed what Tims living (and leagal) situation was, before his Father came out of the Hospital.

  15. #105
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Tim “figuring out” Batman’s identity is the equivalent of there being a guy who recognizes Clark Kent as Superman in glasses. Its not impressive, its creators cheating. Bending the common sense of that universe to try and make him artificially impressive.
    I've seen more contrived Superhero origins.

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