Robin 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular #1 (Discussion)

[Scott Taylor]

Tim “figuring out” Batman’s identity is the equivalent of there being a guy who recognizes Clark Kent as Superman in glasses. Its not impressive, its creators cheating. Bending the common sense of that universe to try and make him artificially impressive.

Well, yes. At the time when Tim was conceived, the DKR universe was so separate that it made sense to bring the same concept into the live line. And at the time the Batman line needed the assist. That DC kind of mailed the story in is an artifact of them forcing Tim onto the scene.

Also, iirc, Jason Robin dying wasn't quite in the original plans.

[Dataweaver]

I've seen more contrived Superhero origins.

And Batman himself has demonstrated much more contrived feats.

[Dataweaver]

Well, yes. At the time when Tim was conceived, the DKR universe was so separate that it made sense to bring the same concept into the live line. And at the time the Batman line needed the assist. That DC kind of mailed the story in is an artifact of them forcing Tim onto the scene.

Also, iirc, Jason Robin dying wasn't quite in the original plans.

Actually, when A Lonely Place of Dying came out, Frank Miller's Year One was still very much considered mainstream continuity (Tim was introduced in Batman: Year 3, which was basically the post-Crisis update of Dick's origin), and DKR was still considered to be a possible future for Batman. In fact, when Jason died in the comics, some saw this as a step toward the DKR future.

So no, it wasn't that the DKR story was considered so separate that it was okay to copy it. It was that Tim wasn't a copy of Carrie. They're at least as different from each other as the post-Crisis Dick and Jason were from each other. (I specify post-Crisis because the pre-Crisis Jason basically was a phoned-in copy of Dick, right down to being the son of murdered circus acrobats.)

[millernumber1]

Actually, when A Lonely Place of Dying came out, Frank Miller's Year One was still very much considered mainstream continuity (Tim was introduced in Batman: Year 3, which was basically the post-Crisis update of Dick's origin), and DKR was still considered to be a possible future for Batman. In fact, when Jason died in the comics, some saw this as a step toward the DKR future.

So no, it wasn't that the DKR story was considered so separate that it was okay to copy it. It was that Tim wasn't a copy of Carrie. They're at least as different from each other as the post-Crisis Dick and Jason were from each other. (I specify post-Crisis because the pre-Crisis Jason basically was a phoned-in copy of Dick, right down to being the son of murdered circus acrobats.)

Year One isn't considered mainstream continuity? I know it's gotten a ton of retcons, but Black Mirror kind of firmly cemented it as being some kind of continuity (as well as then making it impossible in n52 )

[Dataweaver]

At this point, what is and isn't continuity is very much up in the air. But that's beside the point. These days, it's accepted wisdom that DKR is an alternate reality. In fact, Miller has pretty much nailed it down as such by means of All Star Batman and Robin and Dark Knight The Last Crusade.

But at the time of Tim's introduction, DKR was still very recent. Year One included callbacks to DKR (or was it the other way around?) And the conventional wisdom of the time was that DKR was a potential future of the mainstream DCU. Year 2 and Year 3 were presented as sequels to Year One, and the aforementioned echoes between Year One and DKR remained in place.

Then, somewhere in the mid-90s, things changed. While Year One itself was not explicitly retconned, Year 2 and Year 3 were replaced by The Long Halloween and Dark Victory. This corresponded with the time that the Batman editorial team decided that Batman would once again be (and have always been) an urban legend. They never did iron out all of the details of how these changes affected Tim. But at that point, his history as originally presented was not precisely valid anymore, only in the broad strokes. And this in turn calls into question whether Year One was also no longer precisely accurate. It probably was; but who can say for sure?

And then we get into the 2000s, with Infinite Crisis retconning things again and then 52 and its aftermath revealing that the DKR universe was a separate world in the new Multiverse before Flashpoint changed things around again and the DKR Earth got replaced by the pirate takes of Leatherwing (apparently at Miller's insistence). Not to mention the subsequent replacement of (what was left of?) Year One by Zero Year.

But all of these retcons came later. At the time, DC was still in its “the Multiverse is no more; it's all one continuity” phase.

[millernumber1]

At this point, what is and isn't continuity is very much up in the air. But that's beside the point. These days, it's accepted wisdom that DKR is an alternate reality. In fact, Miller has pretty much nailed it down as such by means of All Star Batman and Robin and Dark Knight The Last Crusade.

But at the time of Tim's introduction, DKR was still very recent. Year One included callbacks to DKR (or was it the other way around?) And the conventional wisdom of the time was that DKR was a potential future of the mainstream DCU. Year 2 and Year 3 were presented as sequels to Year One, and the aforementioned echoes between Year One and DKR remained in place.

Then, somewhere in the mid-90s, things changed. While Year One itself was not explicitly retconned, Year 2 and Year 3 were replaced by The Long Halloween and Dark Victory. This corresponded with the time that the Batman editorial team decided that Batman would once again be (and have always been) an urban legend. They never did iron out all of the details of how these changes affected Tim. But at that point, his history as originally presented was not precisely valid anymore, only in the broad strokes. And this in turn calls into question whether Year One was also no longer precisely accurate. It probably was; but who can say for sure?

And then we get into the 2000s, with Infinite Crisis retconning things again and then 52 and its aftermath revealing that the DKR universe was a separate world in the new Multiverse before Flashpoint changed things around again and the DKR Earth got replaced by the pirate takes of Leatherwing (apparently at Miller's insistence). Not to mention the subsequent replacement of (what was left of?) Year One by Zero Year.

But all of these retcons came later. At the time, DC was still in its “the Multiverse is no more; it's all one continuity” phase.

I do tend to forget that the point of the Crisis was to get rid of multiple earths.

[Aahz]

Then, somewhere in the mid-90s, things changed. While Year One itself was not explicitly retconned, Year 2 and Year 3 were replaced by The Long Halloween and Dark Victory.

Not Really Year 2 The Long Halloween can pretty much be both continuity, they don't really contradict each other and when it comes to Year 3 vs. Dark Victory, it didn't really made a difference for the present day stories which of the two was canon, especially since DC published at least two other origin stories for Dick Grayson in that era (one in Robin Annual #4 and one in Legends of the Dark Knight #100), that were technically both also canon.

[Restingvoice]

The one they retcon from Year 2 is the knowledge and death of Joe Chill.

Year 3 I don't know.

[Dataweaver]

The one they retcon from Year 2 is the knowledge and death of Joe Chill.

Year 3 I don't know.

Year 3 is the most relevant to Tim; it's when Dick first meets Tim, on the day of his parents' deaths. It was Tim's memories of that day that helped him piece things together later. Dark Victory retconned those events (for instance, Batman never made an appearance at the circus in Dark Victory; in Year 3, he swooped in and comforted Dick).

It's Dick's origin story, so the broad outlines remain the same no matter what; it's too iconic to change significantly (unlike Jason, whose origin got a complete rewrite after the Crisis). But the smaller details, like Tim and/or Batman being there? That's different.

[Restingvoice]

Year 3 is the most relevant to Tim; it's when Dick first meets Tim, on the day of his parents' deaths. It was Tim's memories of that day that helped him piece things together later. Dark Victory retconned those events (for instance, Batman never made an appearance at the circus in Dark Victory; in Year 3, he swooped in and comforted Dick).

It's Dick's origin story, so the broad outlines remain the same no matter what; it's too iconic to change significantly (unlike Jason, whose origin got a complete rewrite after the Crisis). But the smaller details, like Tim and/or Batman being there? That's different.

Yeah, I remember those parts. The Tim part especially was often cited for his back story, which makes me confused about what actually got retconned.

When I read a list of canon Batman materials years ago when I tried to get into comics, it's mentioned that Year 3 was retconned, and I'm convinced Year 2 and Year 3 are officially retconned because DC never published them again until the past two-three years.

[Scott Taylor]

Actually, when A Lonely Place of Dying came out, Frank Miller's Year One was still very much considered mainstream continuity (Tim was introduced in Batman: Year 3, which was basically the post-Crisis update of Dick's origin), and DKR was still considered to be a possible future for Batman. In fact, when Jason died in the comics, some saw this as a step toward the DKR future.

So no, it wasn't that the DKR story was considered so separate that it was okay to copy it. It was that Tim wasn't a copy of Carrie. They're at least as different from each other as the post-Crisis Dick and Jason were from each other. (I specify post-Crisis because the pre-Crisis Jason basically was a phoned-in copy of Dick, right down to being the son of murdered circus acrobats.)

Continuity is subjective. I'm not sure common wisdom at the time was so cut and dried about DKR being meant to be in continuity - after all it came out and then continuity was immediately re-written by COIE and all that followed. DKR and COIE were published at right about the same time. And the aftermath of COIE, Legends, Year 1, Man of Steel, Wonder Woman, etc. - a new beginning was the atmosphere where Jason Todd died and later Tim appeared. Year 1, 2 and 3 were definitely in continuity though and still are as far as I know.

All that to say - probably you are right that a lot of people hoped DKR would be in continuity and it seemed like such a far flung future at the time that it was relatively easy to believe that way. DC was basically having their cake and eating it too with Tim. No matter how things shook down, they would have that unique take on Robin.

By the way, killing Jason was such a drag. We had this new, optimistic universe and thats what you do in the Batman comics? On the other hand, we got Year 1, which is maybe the best singular Batman story.

[Dataweaver]

To be fair, Jason's death was as much a surprise to the folks at DC as it was to everyone else. Sure, when they set up the telephone hotline to determine Jason's fate in A Death in the Family, they knew that it was possible that he might actually die; but from what I've read of their reactions, they didn't seriously think it was actually going to happen. I mean, in that day and age, that sort of thing just wasn't done.

Of course, now we live in a time when every single Robin in the mainstream comics has died — and gotten better.

[Aahz]

It's Dick's origin story, so the broad outlines remain the same no matter what; it's too iconic to change significantly (unlike Jason, whose origin got a complete rewrite after the Crisis). But the smaller details, like Tim and/or Batman being there? That's different.

But just Tim not appearing in the story doesn't really mean that he was not there.

Btw. that reminds me some time back someone made this really great overview about Dick's different Origins Stories.

https://dynamic-duo-deposit.tumblr.c...-sheetextended

[Dataweaver]

For what it's worth, it's not so much the “Tim was there” part that I considered to have been retconned. It was the “Batman was there” part. But that just makes Tim drawing the connection that much more impressive.

The more problematic retcon was the urban legend Batman bit. If Batman was an urban legend, he would not have appeared on television. If he and Robin did not appear on television, how did Tim see Robin perform the same acrobatic feat that Dick had back at the circus?

[Jackalope89]

For what it's worth, it's not so much the “Tim was there” part that I considered to have been retconned. It was the “Batman was there” part. But that just makes Tim drawing the connection that much more impressive.

The more problematic retcon was the urban legend Batman bit. If Batman was an urban legend, he would not have appeared on television. If he and Robin did not appear on television, how did Tim see Robin perform the same acrobatic feat that Dick had back at the circus?

Easy, Tim was a stalker.