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  1. #151
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    One nitpick: Carrie didn't figure out Batman's secret identity. Bruce told her who he was. Tim is the first (and only) Robin to figure out who Batman is.

    Another nitpick: while Carrie was definitely portrayed as smart, she was never portrayed as a natural detective. Good with tech, yeah; detective, not so much. I'm not saying that she was bad at it; frankly, there's not enough evidence to go on, because we never see her doing any honest-to-goodness detective work in DKR. The closest she gets is some snooping, where she overhears something important (“we're gathering at the junkyard”) and acts on it: the extent of her detective work is “if something big is going down there, he might show up”. And that's fine; it's not her role in the story to piece together clues. Her role in DKR is to be Bruce's helper in the field, being young and vibrant and pulling him out of messes that he couldn't get himself out of because he was getting too old for this. Indeed, she never shows any special genius at detective work in any of the sequels — not that they'd count even if she did, because Tim had already been Robin for over a decade by the time Dark Knight Strikes Again came out: anything new added to her character from that point on that overlaps with Tim would have been a case of her borrowing from him, not the other way around.

    The main area where she and Tim overlap is that both of them were the Robins who earned the job by saving Batman. No other Robin can claim that, but both of them can.

    And again, the fact that Carrie's parents were druggies and Tim's parents weren't wasn't much of a difference before each of them became Robin; but it was a massive difference after: in Carrie's case, her parents were literally never heard from again. In Tim's case, his dad came back, renounced his absentee ways, and became an integral part of Tim's life. Carrie very quickly ended up moving into Wayne Manor and quickly became Bruce's de facto daughter; Tim spent over 2/3 of his career as Robin living with his dad. And even after that, Tim never really moved into Wayne Manor: in the immediate wake of his father's death, he concocted a scheme to get himself declared as an emancipated minor so that he wouldn't have to move in with Bruce. And while Bruce eventually did adopt him, he was already very much his own man by then.

    I have great respect for both Carrie and Tim; and I'm not saying the things I'm saying to denigrate Carrie. But I just don't see Tim as a knock-off of Carrie. It's not like what makes her special depends on Tim not being special.
    You are correct that batman did reveal his identity to Carrie. In my 1st post i was mistaken. Went back and checked that panel after Carrie tracked him down.

    Carrie was shown doing detective work and finding clues. Eg she found the key clue to joker.
    She was also good with tech.

    You keep moving the goalpost. presenting changes that happened decades after their debut as evidence. They aren't.

    Tim become a great detective is irrelevant
    Carrie's folks being stoners v Tim's absent parents is irrelevant since the point is they were both neglectful
    Tim resisting adoption or length of time before moving into the manor.

    All irrelevant since these aren't differences. It character development and shit that happened to the character as life took it's toll.

    We are talking about the character's and their story when they debuted. The idea's and themes behind the construction of Carrie and Tim as presented to readers.

    These include;

    -The concept [Miller's new idea's and changes which made the new Robin different from what readers have come to expect/knew about Robin] -

    the biggest and most important which is Miller's reworking of the Dynamic Duo's. batman rides in to rescue a kid who is in need then the kid later becomes robin.

    Batman needs Robin [thank God Synder rectoned that in Rebirth]

    Professional relationship rather than parental or guardian

    -Themes present in their introduction [how, why they arrived at Robin and the factors in their home life] -

    lived with parents who were neglectful leaving them unsupervised which is why they were able to get away with Robin duties for time without their parents awareness.

    Both Save Batman pushing him to relent and train them [poor Damian, saving batman wasn't enough to 'earn' him the role]

    -Character design and type [traits, skills, personality of the character] -

    Unlike Dick and Jason, Carrie was constructed to be a representation of the era's Typical teens. Relateable. Insert characters not just Audience Surrogates.
    She was a nerdy fan girl who liked doing typical teen stuff

    So far you only have 1 valid difference and that is that tim saw robin do a move exclusive to the flying Grayson's. Tim being present when Mr and Mrs Garyson died no brainier it's Dick Grayson the solo survivor Grayson.

    That's it everything else is you just reaching.

    More important you choose to ignore or downplay the most remarkable themes that define Tim and his place in the pantheon of Robins is taken from Kelly. The change is the B&R.

    Carrie was unique until Tim.
    Carrie was and is Special

    Before Carrie, Rob in was an orphan who was lost and in danger of going down a dark path who Bruce took in and provided parental support for.
    Before Carrie Robin wasn't a mantle that was earned but was given because it was needed
    Before Carrie Robin was an orphan and a regular kid not a disadvantaged kid
    before Carrie robin was a kid with physical abilities [an acrobat or a street kid who was able to get the jump on Batman
    Before Carrie Robin was Bruce's kid or Ward. Bruce had legal control
    Before Carrie Batman saved Robins while Carrie saved batman


    All these changes introduced by Miller during his redesign of Robin which were all present in Carrie and in her introduction were lifted and applied to Tim.

    my goal here is not to convince you or anyone. The goal is to point out the many similarities and finally get it talked about.

    To get people thinking about it and hopefully next time they revisit the DKR it'll jump out at them just like it did with me.

    Respect? Respect is granting each Robin their place in the line up

    Dick Grayson was the originator the Blue print for Robin. Carrie redefinded it for a generation of comi8c readers.

    Her place in the pantheon of Robins is the 3rd Robin who redefined what and who Robin could be.

    Edit

    I can't be bothered typing more so I'll let a Tim fan@ the Drake Podcast counter for me with scans


    http://thebatmanuniverse.net/tim-drake-2/

    Tim lacked parental supervision.
    Tim during his intro was good with tech and not very good at detective work
    Last edited by dietrich; 04-06-2020 at 10:00 AM.

  2. #152
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    I don't consider Tim a knock-off her, if that were the case Damian would be a knock-off of Jason post-COIE. She was an Elsewhere Robin and has never been part of the main continuity, the only Robin who has been a knock-off has been Jason pre-COIE. His parents were 'The Flying Todds', their deaths left him in almost an identical situation to Dick, he even dyed his hair to look like Dick Robin, that was sooo unconfortable and weird.

  3. #153
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    I don't consider Tim a knock-off her, if that were the case Damian would be a knock-off of Jason post-COIE. She was an Elsewhere Robin and has never been part of the main continuity, the only Robin who has been a knock-off has been Jason pre-COIE. His parents were 'The Flying Todds', their deaths left him in almost an identical situation to Dick, he even dyed his hair to look like Dick Robin, that was sooo unconfortable and weird.
    The only thing that I disagree with you on is that when she was first introduced, DKR wasn't an Elseworld; it was a potential future of DC: basically, it was like Batman Beyond is now. But yeah; despite a handful of similarities, Tim isn't a knock-off of Carrie; and I just can't fathom how asserting that is in any way a knock against Carrie.

    I mean, here's Carrie's entire story in DKR:

    Book 1: the Dark Knight Returns
    1. We first see her and her friend Michelle taking a shortcut that nearly gets them killed, if not for Batman's intervention. We learn here that Carrie is doing well in a computer course at school, and not so we'll in a chemistry course.
    2. Michelle freaks out to a reporter about their encounter with Batman. Carrie admonishes her, and then proceeds to geek out.
    3. As her parents get high and talk about old times, she watches in awe as the Bat-Signal lights up for the first time in a decade.

    Book 2: the Dark Knight Triumphant
    1. We see Carrie as Robin for the first time. She sneaks out her window and nearly falls to get death. Her parents' second appearance, once again reminiscing about the past as Carrie sneaks out.
    2. After some practicing, she's able to navigate the rooftops safely, and decides to start fighting crime.
    3. She starts small, disrupting a grifter's attempt at Three Card Monty.
    4. She overhears Mutants talking about a big event at the dump, and followed them there hoping that Batman will show up.
    5. As she watches the Batmobile do a number on the Mutants, her parents briefly remember that she exists. This is their last appearance. Ever.
    6. When the Mutant leader gets the upper hand against Batman, Carrie jumps in to save him, putting her own life in peril but giving Batman the opportunity to end the fight. She then gets him back into the Batmobile and performs first aid on him. She identifies herself as Carrie Kelly, then as Robin; Batman tells her that he's Bruce, and brings her back to the Batcave with him. Carrie is seen looking at a Robin suit in a glass case.
    7. Bruce returns and Carrie hugs him. Bruce speaks to Alfred about his intention to take her on, calling her young, smart, and brave; Alfred is against the idea because of what happened to Jason, but Bruce isn't dissuaded.
    8. Batman drops Robin off disguised as a Mutant in Mutant territory, where she proceeds to start a rumor about a rematch between Batman and the Mutant leader. It goes well.

    Book 3: Hunt the Dark Knight
    1. Robin allows herself to be seen while helping Batman take down Bruno, against Batman's orders to stay out of sight.
    2. We learn that Robin is in awe of Superman, too, as Batman continues to chastise her for disobeying his orders. The two of them head to a stakeout.
    3. Robin gets impatient and rushes into Abner's apartment, setting off a bomb. While she's in shock, Bruce decides to send her home.
    4. Bruce changes his mind and sends Alfred to pick up Carrie from school. She charges back to him full steam ahead.
    5. In the Bat-Copter, Batman tells Robin not to touch anything, and what to do if things go south. She demonstrates knowledge of technology that surprises him, but also overs his instructions more readily.
    6. While Batman fights his way to the Joker, Robin reprograms the Bat-Copter. She then violates his instructions (to flee if things go badly) and instead extracts him from the fight. Batman expresses his approval, and they switch to the Batcycle. She helps him escape the police again when how detective disguise gets compromised.
    7. At Kyle Escorts, Robin discovers some cotton candy; but it's Batman who recognizes its actually significance. She nearly falls to her death as the two of them evade the police and head to the fairgrounds. They get to the fairgrounds too late, and Carrie witnesses the dead bodies of an entire Boy Scout troop.
    8. Batman and Robin engage with the Joker and his minion, respectively. Robin's fight with the minion takes place on a roller coaster. She uses a slingshot to knock a bomb away from a kid, then finds herself being choked by the minion until he gets snagged by another part of the roller coaster and killed by it. When we last see her, she's riding the roller coaster and crying.

    Book 4: the Dark Knight Falls
    1. Picking up right from where the last issue ended, Batman calls Robin and snaps her out of her funk. She evades a newscopter, returns to the Bat-Copter, and extracts Batman from his fight with the police.
    2. Back at the Batcave, she helps Alfred patch up Bruce.
    3. As the nuke goes off, Carrie's electronic watch dies. Batman and Robin mount up (Robin riding a horse for the first time ever) and head into Gotham. Batman gives his recruitment speech to the Sons of the Bat as Robin is enraptured by it.
    4. Batman, Robin, and the Sons of the Bat storm into Gotham to save it from itself. Robin watches Batman and realizes how old he is, but also how important he is.
    5. Some time later, Robin properly learns to ride a horse, and is there when Superman issues his challenge to Batman. Bruce muses about how young she is, and how quickly she's learning. We then see where as Bruce is getting prepared for the fight. She asks him if he's going to die, and he answers that he won't, using her own sarcastic backward-speak to do so.
    6. She engaged Superman in the Batmobile, which Superman promptly disables. While Batman fights Superman, the Batmobile reactivates and a recording of Bruce explains his plan to her.
    7. At Bruce's funeral, Carrie is there as Bruce's “distant cousin” and is fearful for a moment that Clark has found out what they're up to. He silently assures her that he'll leave them alone, and Carrie digs Bruce up.
    8. When we last see her, she's at Bruce's side in a deep recess of the Batcave as he and the Sons of the Bat begin to prepare for the future.

    That's everything, from beginning to end.

    (To be continued in my next post.)
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  4. #154
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Now, for Tim's origin story: A Lonely Place of Dying.

    Chapter 1: Suspects
    1. Tim photographs Batman as he limps away from a bruising fight, and comments on Batman's stubbornness before riding away in his bike.
    2. Tim reviews his records on Batman and Robin, and thinks about how Bruce is in a downward spiral.
    3. Tim cases Titans Tower, waiting for Nightwing to show up. When he doesn't, Tim decides to speak to Starfire.
    4. Tim asks Starfire about Nightwing's whereabouts, and gets frustrated when she won't tell him. He then goes to Dick's old apartment for clues as to his whereabouts, and learns about the imminent closing of Haley's Circus. He sets out for the circus in order to find Dick.

    Chapter 2: Roots
    1. Tim watches the circus looking for Dick. He realizes that Dick could be in disguise, and starts looking at different candidates for who Dick may be disguised as. He spots a particularly acrobatic clown and identifies him as Dick, then watched in horror as the lion Tanner is mauled to death.
    2. Some circus hands spot Tim as he's investigating the death of the lion tamer. Tim makes a break for it, but it's caught by Dick. Tim calls Dick by name, and tells him his theory about the truth behind the lion tamer's death. He also tells him that Batman needs him.
    3. One of the culprits flees, but Tim catches him. Tim's theory turns out to be wrong, but contains enough truth that it let Dick find the real killer. Tim geeks out about how good Dick is.
    4. After Dick saves the circus, he confronts Tim, and Tim shows him the evidence he's collected that Batman is losing it. He reveals how much he knows about Bruce, Dick, and Jason, and begs Dick to come back to Gotham with him to save Batman.

    Chapter 3: Parallel Lines
    Dick brings Tim to Wayne Manor and introduces him to Alfred. Tim geeks out again, about seeing Batman's home for the first time. Dick tells Alfred that he's twelve, Tim corrects him as says that he's thirteen. He tells Alfred that he's staying at a boarding school while his parents are away on a business trip. He then reminds Dick of the first time they met (previously told in Batman Year Three) at Haley's Circus on the day that the Flying Graysons died, and retells the events from his perspective. He then told about the nightmares he had for years after, and how he eventually saw a video tape of Robin that have him the clue that let him connect Dick to Robin and Bruce to Batman. He then returns to his earlier statement that Batman needs Dick's help — but as Robin. Dick takes Tim into the Batcave, changes into his Nightwing outfit, and Tim protests again that Batman needs Robin — and Alfred suggests that Dick agrees, which is why he brought Tim into the Batcave.

    Chapter 4: Going Home
    Tim once again tries to convince Dick to go back to being Robin. Dick refuses, and leaves. Alfred consoles Tim that his efforts have brought Bruce and Dick back together, and Tim says that that's not what Batman needs.

    Later, Tim is there when Alfred received a call from Dick, and then asks Alfred about the tension that exists between Bruce and Dick.

    Later still, Alfred and Tim go down to the Batcave in response to an indication that something has gone wrong. Tim insists that they need to do something, as the final panel zooms in on the Robin costume.

    Chapter 5: Rebirth
    Tim and Alfred have a talk about Alfred's feelings about being Batman's butler while Alfred handles a Robin costume, which eventually finds its way into Tim's hands. Tim holds it up and says that Batman needs Robin.

    Alfred drives Tim to the site where Batman and Nightwing are trapped, and Tim summarizes his backstory and ends with “if Dick won't become Robin again, someone else has to!”, putting on the Robin mask.

    Robin attacks Two-Face, who fights back. Alfred interrupts the fight and gives Tim an opening to KO Two-Face. Tim finds a coal chute and deduces that it will lead him to Batman and Nightwing; he goes down it, finds Batman and Nightwing in the rubble, digs them out, and introduces himself as Robin. Batman rejects him, and Tim reveals what he knows. Then both Nightwing and Alfred start in on a sales pitch for Tim becoming Robin (“his instincts for detective work are astounding.” “and his acrobatic ability is quite remarkable. He's almost as brilliant as was Master Dick.”) Bruce is reticent, and Tim gives his own sales pitch. Then Batman realizes that Two-Face has escaped, and Tim reveals that he slipped a tracker onto him while they were fighting. Batman, Nightwing, and Robin pile into the Batmobile to chase Two-face down. They find him in a junkyard, and take him down.

    Back at Wayne Manor, Tim thanks Bruce for everything, and Bruce decides to take him on on a provisional basis.

    Mind you, that's just the start of Tim's story. A Lonely Place of Dying is (very roughly) analogous to Carrie in the first half of DKR: from their first impression of Batman through the first time they introduced themselves as Robin and were taken on board. You then go through roughly a year's worth of comics as Tim trains to be Robin — mostly under Bruce, but with some tutelage from Dick as well. During this time, the Obeah Man abducts Tim's parents and poisons them, killing Tim's mom and putting Tim's dad in a coma. While Batman is trying to save them, Tim is back in Gotham tracking down a hacker. Batman returns to Gotham; Tim puts on his own Robin costume for the first time; and immediately after that, he's off on a solo adventure in Europe as he undergoes the last bit of training before formally joining Batman as the newest Robin. That arguably brings Tim to roughly the same place Carrie was at at the start of DKR#3: having finally received their training and officially debuting as Batman's partner.

    From day one, Tim was doing detective work; not just collecting clues from a crime scene, but making deductions and solving crimes.
    Rogue wears rouge.
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  5. #155
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    I don't consider Tim a knock-off her, if that were the case Damian would be a knock-off of Jason post-COIE. She was an Elsewhere Robin and has never been part of the main continuity, the only Robin who has been a knock-off has been Jason pre-COIE. His parents were 'The Flying Todds', their deaths left him in almost an identical situation to Dick, he even dyed his hair to look like Dick Robin, that was sooo unconfortable and weird.
    Don't recall Jason being a bad guy who decided to become a hero going on to become Robin.

    Their narratives are opposites.

    Damian wasn't the 1st Robin to a bio kid that was Helena
    Last edited by dietrich; 04-09-2020 at 02:59 AM.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Damian wasn't the 1st Robin to a bio kid that was Helena
    Actually the first bio kid Robin was Bruce Jr. (even if he appeared just in imaginary stories).

    The original Helena Wayne was never Robin, at her Earth Dick was still Robin when she became Huntress, and the new 52 Helena was created after Damian.

  7. #157
    Spectacular Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1jW...83674943838111

    Screenshot_2020-04-10-14-47-45-699_com.android.chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_2020-04-10-14-51-23-660_com.android.chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_2020-04-10-14-52-08-174_com.android.chrome.jpg
    Even though I'm very very late to find this video, and I am also late to find this thread, I wanna share this to celebrate Robin anniversary before Joker War attacks all those kids. Happy Anniversary Robin! Hope you guys will have bright future (even though unlikely)
    Last edited by Light of Justice; 04-10-2020 at 12:57 AM.

  8. #158
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1jW...83674943838111

    Even though I'm very very late to find this video, and I am also late to find this thread, I wanna share this to celebrate Robin anniversary before Joker War attacks all those kids. Happy Anniversary Robin! Hope you guys will have bright future (even though unlikely)
    Thanks for sharing! I found a screencap of my girl from that video that's very cute.

    Steph screenshot.jpg
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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