Robin 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular #1 (Discussion)

[Fergus]

I loved it on the whole. The character pieces were a lot better than the more action-oriented stories.

In a way, it was nice that Dick, as the original Robin, got the most coverage - though ironically, most of his stories are from his post-Robin career (and the Robin one was right at the end). But as much as the stories varied in style, there was a consistent theme between all of them - the idea that Dick is his own man and wants to be a hero who's a compassionate protector first and foremost, rather than a grim avenger. Robin being a contrast to Batman was baked into the character from Day 1, in a sense, and we get to see all the manifestations of that simple idea in each of Dick's stories.

I must say I loved the 'twist' at the end of the first Dick story. It seems like we're getting the infamous 'Batjerk' version of Bruce, but actually we're getting a kinder Bruce with a heart of gold!

The Jason story was touching. Yes, its a little surprising to see the way young Jason is portrayed - he's usually shown to be this rebellious teen who always had a violent streak, not Bruce's loving adopted son. But it did drive home an aspect which has been a fundamental part of Jason's character lately - that he is a 'son' of Batman and will always be a part of Bruce's family, regardless of how far they've grown apart in a lot of other aspects.

Incidentially, did anyone else find it jarring just how young Jason looked in the flashbacks? He couldn't have been more than 8 or 9, and he's definitely at least 21 in the present-day parts. A hint towards 5G and the more expanded timeline?

The Tim stories were good too, especially the second one. I LOVED how Damien summed up where Tim currently falls in the pantheon of Robins. Its pretty much the same argument that's been made on this forum time and time again. And again, as with the Dick stories, it really sums up what makes Tim stand out - the fact that he actively chose to be Robin, more so than any of the others did.

Don't have much of an opinion about the Steph story. I actually think its the first time I've read Steph as Robin!

Didn't care much for the Super Sons story honestly. It seemed more like a Jon Kent story than a Damien one, and it was pretty sappy. The second Damien story was pretty cool though and reflected the dichotomy between father and son, both in terms of how alike they are and how different. Though I'm not a fan of stories in commemorative issues like this being part of a larger ongoing arc. But Damien's reflections on the 'revolving door' of Gotham's villains ties back to his earliest appearances and does reflect the spirit of the character.

Was there anything I'd liked to have seen done differently? A lot. The Titans story was easily dispensable IMO as was the Jon Kent story. Instead, we could have done with a story of Dick as Robin during the heyday of the original Dynamic Duo. A story actually set during Jason's time as Robin. A Carrie Kelly story would not have been amiss either.

But, again, on the whole this was a great celebration of the Boy (and Girl) Wonder!

Agreed on the Supersons story.

Disagree on Tim being the only one who chose to be Robin

All the Robins choose to be Robin didn't they? They all wanted to help .
Steph was used but she was already trying to help. think.

Carrie and Tim sort out Batman yeah but that doesn't change they fact that they all chose to be Robin/help

[Drako]

Wolfman's story for Dick, is more an new version of his transition to Nightwing (in this case Dick leaving on his own and not being fired by Bruce), then a real Robin story.

Not new at all. He was only fired in the Year One by Chuck Dixon.

[Aahz]

Not new at all. He was only fired in the Year One by Chuck Dixon.

And in Jason's Post Crisis Origin Story (Batman #408).

[Gotham citizen]

I guess the idea was that every writter writes a story from his era with the character, but I find it wired that for both Dick and Tim you don't really get a story that's set more early in their career.

Wolfman's story for Dick, is more an new version of his transition to Nightwing (in this case Dick leaving on his own and not being fired by Bruce), then a real Robin story.

And Bleechms story is also set in an era shortly before Tim became Red Robin.

Btw. the Tim Damian Part of Tynion story feels really out of character for me.

Not new at all. He was only fired in the Year One by Chuck Dixon.

And in Jason's Post Crisis Origin Story (Batman #408).

[MODE_SORRY_FOR_THE_LITTLE_OFF_TOPIC_ON]
This is what happens when you do too many retcon, without doing a proper reboot: the past becomes a mess in which the reader don't understand what is actually true and what is no more.
[MODE_SORRY_FOR_THE_LITTLE_OFF_TOPIC_OFF]

[Drako]

And in Jason's Post Crisis Origin Story (Batman #408).

Yeah, but Marv Wolfman didn't write him getting fired, so this is basically part of his original vision..

[nhienphan2808]

Devin's characterization is actually tolerable. Dick still sounds like her rather than himself but he dodged some bullets.

I hoped Tynion got better with his pretentious writing and total misunderstanding of Dick but he didn't. Guess that's default for Tim now.

I skipped Agent 37. Not interested.

[Restingvoice]

Devin's characterization is actually tolerable. Dick still sounds like her rather than himself but he dodged some bullets.

I hoped Tynion got better with his pretentious writing and total misunderstanding of Dick but he didn't. Guess that's default for Tim now.

I skipped Agent 37. Not interested.

I don't know how she usually writes him, but the story, voice, and how Dick acts sounds almost beat for beat like his portrayal as Agent 37. There's 1-2 story in the Grayson series about him infiltrating the enemy and reveal himself cheekily at the end that it feels like an Agent 37 story but in Nightwing costume.

[Godlike13]

Devin Grayson’s characterization for Dick wasn’t ever really her run’s problem. Also I don’t think her story similarities to Agent 37 was a coincidence.

[nhienphan2808]

I remember reading Seeley & King worked with her at the time they wrote Grayson.

[Tzigone]

Devin Grayson’s characterization for Dick wasn’t ever really her run’s problem.

I don't agree, based on limited reading of the run. And especially on her interviews and how she describes him. She definitely goes for the "act first, maybe not think at all" and the "can't maintain attention on one thing" and "incapable of fidelity/maintaining a relationship" and he fights or kisses and doesn't really relate any other way and so forth. She certainly influenced the characterization of the character a lot - and I liked him a lot more before she did.

[Restingvoice]

She definitely goes for the "act first, maybe not think at all"

Oh yeah that's Grayson characterization alright

The series Grayson, not... Devin, but if Tom and Tim were talking with Devin while making Grayson, that explains that.

[Godlike13]

I don't agree, based on limited reading of the run. And especially on her interviews and how she describes him. She definitely goes for the "act first, maybe not think at all" and the "can't maintain attention on one thing" and "incapable of fidelity/maintaining a relationship" and he fights or kisses and doesn't really relate any other way and so forth. She certainly influenced the characterization of the character a lot - and I liked him a lot more before she did.

Believable flaws for the character. Devin Grayson had a solid grasp on the character for the most part. She wasn't just a creator with general knowledge about Dick or just did a quick google search on him, reading her run she clearly had an understanding of his character and Dick was a character it seemed like she analyzed quite a bit. Its the kind of stories she wanted to tell with the characters, how she went about it, and what she did to his world building where her run fell apart.

[Tzigone]

Believable flaws for the character. Devin Grayson had a solid grasp on the character for the most part. She wasn't just creator that just did a quick google search on him, reading her run she clearly had an understanding of his character and was a character she analyzed quite a bit. Its the kind of stories she wanted to tell with the characters and what she did to his world building where her run fell apart.

I strongly disagree. These things directly contradicted older characterizations. Throughout the 80s and in much of the 70s, it was think that Dick was very cerebral. And in the 80s, he was very much about fidelity and sex only within committed relationships. He was the one ready for long-term and stable while Barbara was skittish. He turned down Clancey when things got serious with Barbara. She turned him into an airhead lead by his emotions and libido and incapable of handling his enemies instead of strong competent, capable leader than already had his own flaws (issues with living up to Bruce, etc.). Her run didn't "fall apart" - she tore it apart by her own actions. Destroyed his supporting cast, drove him from his setting, and left future writers with no base for a solo character who generally needs those things.

1980-1985 and 1996-2000 Dick Grayson, while very different from each other, were both very good (not to say there wasn't some good both before and in between, but those two are my peak eras). Later Dick Grayson is a pathetic shadow of what he used to be. "Not a big thinker" - his teams don't tend to respect him. Backs down to the JL. Is frequently sexually objectified by everyone -which wouldn't be as bad, if it weren't treated like 70% of his character. He was more mature at 19 (highlighted at Terry's bachelor party and several other times) than he was in his mid-20s. Back in the 80s, we had Wally and Roy thinking Dick had it all together (even if Donna and Kory knew better). He was respected back then - by fans and heroes and villains. Now you have Lex Luthor calling him "not a big thinker"and fans calling him a bimbo and his IQ insulted and even in flattering representations, he's a child-like cuddle-bunny who is defined as a big bro as his positives rather that him as fantastically capable hero, tactician, detective, or leader. He was a brilliant detective once up a time, but now his brain power gets insulted too frequently. It's been decades in the making, but she's largely responsible for turning the trend that way, IMO.

[Godlike13]

She wrote Dick as cerebral with Titans, but quick to act first and could be careless when it came to himself. Nothing really wrong there, and actually made sense of team Dick vs solo Dick. She also wrote Dick as loyal but immature when it came to romantic adult relationships. Which again, is a valid enough idea. Dick's entire life is superhero-centric. Things out of that world view he's not really experienced to. She did not write him as some cheating playboy though. Im not sure where your getting this infidelity idea from. She was clearly interested in the possible flaws in Dick's characters, to an extent i applaud that because the idea of Dick as this golden child or perfect dude is limiting and can make him come off boring or cookie cutter. Her Dick was flawed, but it was never in invalid or unbelievable ways. Her run was actually not bad up until she jumped the shark with rape and then got lost in a spiral of misery. Born again was 7 issues, not 27. Some things about what Dixon built though needed to be tore down, like his corny villains. So Dick running though them was actually kind of awesome, and this war with Blockbuster needed to come to some sort of end. But nothing was then built in their place, and Dick joining the mob i don't know what anyone was thinking there. Then of course came IC and Dick's fate was seemingly sealed. Not too mention a 6 month chuck in the middle of her run probably didn't help. So where ever she might have been going was never going to reach a satisfying conclusion. Again though Born Again was 7 issues not 27. Plus at the end of the day while Dixon might have ripped off Daredevil for Bludhaven, Nightwing was not Daredevil. Her Titans run though, that was solid enough. Thought it was a good move to go back to that run here.

[Aahz]

Some things about what Dixon built though needed to be tore down, like his corny villains. So Dick running though them was actually kind of awesome, and this war with Blockbuster needed to come to some sort of end.

But her run really only worked as long as she was still had Dixon's work as a basis, at the point where they get rid it, the run completely fell apart. And Nightwing as solo property has imo never really recovered from that.