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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Yes, of course. This is why the Sony/Marvel deal is to each other's mutual benefit.

    Sony could easily keep making their own Spider-Man films and do very well with them.

    And by the same token, Marvel can easily be Spidey free and rake in billions.

    But aside from the monetary angle, I think parties on either side just think it's cool and fun to have Spider-Man in the MCU mix.
    But, on that point, it's not really necessary to tie Spider-Man with other Marvel characters outside of a few easter eggs let alone make his entire identity as a hero so dependent on another character when such a relationship does not exist in the comics. An MCU Spider-Man could have been equally as successful if they had just referenced events from the other films in the MCU. It's kind of analogous to a scenario where, when finally adapting the Fantastic Four for the MCU, they also choose to say that Reed Richards got all of his ideas for his inventions from Tony Stark. Of course, Reed Richards is a famed scientist who, traditionally, is the smartest man in the Marvel Universe. It would be a shame to cast him in the shadow of another character.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 03-29-2020 at 01:50 AM.

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    If Stark's presence in the movie was purely physical, sure, but I felt it went well beyond that in Homecoming.

    Oh, I hold no allusions that this will be the last live action version of Spider-Man or anything. I just don't see the harm in frankly discussing the version we currently have.
    If the MCU were a person's only exposure to Spider-Man, they would come away believing that Stark was a more important figure in Peter's life than Uncle Ben.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    If the MCU were a person's only exposure to Spider-Man, they would come away believing that Stark was a more important figure in Peter's life than Uncle Ben.
    Unless you are a very small child who remains quarantined from all other media for the rest of your life, I do not see how this would actually be a problem when this is Spider-Man, one of the most popular fictional characters on Earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
    The world has changed, and so have I.

  4. #109
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    I feel like if they made MCU Lebron tight with Thor since this movie franchise is about the Avengers, people would still know who Lebron is and that Lebron being an Avenger is not official NBA history. Everyone knowing what Lebron does on the court means they can take more creative liberties because they don't have to show him dunking the ball in the hoop, because you've probably seen that before. Unlike, say, how the vast majority have never seen Steve use Mjolnir.

    if this paragraph makes no sense it's because it was originally about jesus
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Unless you are a very small child who remains quarantined from all other media for the rest of your life, I do not see how this would actually be a problem when this is Spider-Man, one of the most popular fictional characters on Earth.
    This actually makes me curious what kind of Spider-Man media kids consume on a daily basis. I guess the MCU and Into the Spider-Verse were pretty big, but I'm not sure how popular Marvel's Spider-Man is (cartoon, not the game).

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    This actually makes me curious what kind of Spider-Man media kids consume on a daily basis. I guess the MCU and Into the Spider-Verse were pretty big, but I'm not sure how popular Marvel's Spider-Man is (cartoon, not the game).
    I'm not sure either.

    I remember ye olden days when exposure was almost a given because Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends was on NBC!

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I'm not sure either.

    I remember ye olden days when exposure was almost a given because Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends was on NBC!
    Not to mention the 90's show on Fox or Spec on KidsWB.

  8. #113
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Not to mention the 90's show on Fox or Spec on KidsWB.
    Exactly. Now it's different--with streaming, kids mostly watch what they directly choose. Which is different than flipping through channels on a Sat morn and something catching your attention which you wouldn't have sought out.

    I can't tell you how many friends I had who never stepped foot inside a comic book store but were introduced to X-Men through the cartoon.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But, on that point, it's not really necessary to tie Spider-Man with other Marvel characters outside of a few easter eggs let alone make his entire identity as a hero so dependent on another character when such a relationship does not exist in the comics. An MCU Spider-Man could have been equally as successful if they had just referenced events from the other films in the MCU.
    If you're going to have this unprecedented deal with two major studios working together and all you want to do is just reference events in the MCU films, why even bother? If you're going to do that little with it, it's not worth doing at all.

    Sony can make their own Spider-Man movies sans Marvel and do just fine. If they're going to team with Marvel, both parties want to get the most out of that deal. That means really leaning into the MCU connections. And no, Tony and Spidey don't have quite the same relationship in the comics but that's ok because THIS ISN'T THE COMICS. The MCU is its own alt universe and they're free to take things down some different avenues.

  10. #115
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    If you're going to have this unprecedented deal with two major studios working together and all you want to do is just reference events in the MCU films, why even bother? If you're going to do that little with it, it's not worth doing at all.

    Sony can make their own Spider-Man movies sans Marvel and do just fine. If they're going to team with Marvel, both parties want to get the most out of that deal. That means really leaning into the MCU connections. And no, Tony and Spidey don't have quite the same relationship in the comics but that's ok because THIS ISN'T THE COMICS. The MCU is its own alt universe and they're free to take things down some different avenues.
    Sure, but there are core elements that are arguably so important that no version should discard them. As such, for many fans, the MCU version comes across as "Peter Parker in name only."

    The MCU treats Peter's relationship with Uncle Ben as being of less importance than Tony Stark's mentorship. You get no sense that he feels personally responsible for Ben's death--though for all we know, the MCU Uncle Ben might have left May and Peter to pursue dreams of becoming an actor. That's how ridiculously vague they've been about Peter's primary motivation.

    There are other elements the MCU Spider-Man has been stripped of, like his tendency to isolate himself, that make it a vastly less compelling take than other media interpretations that stick closer to his core characterization.

    That's my personal opinion, at any rate. Obviously mileage varies.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Sure, but there are core elements that are arguably so important that no version should discard them. As such, for many fans, the MCU version comes across as "Peter Parker in name only."

    The MCU treats Peter's relationship with Uncle Ben as being of less importance than Tony Stark's mentorship. You get no sense that he feels personally responsible for Ben's death--though for all we know, the MCU Uncle Ben might have left May and Peter to pursue dreams of becoming an actor. That's how ridiculously vague they've been about Peter's primary motivation.

    There are other elements the MCU Spider-Man has been stripped of, like his tendency to isolate himself, that make it a vastly less compelling take than other media interpretations that stick closer to his core characterization.

    That's my personal opinion, at any rate. Obviously mileage varies.
    Peter's tendency to isolate himself wouldn't really go far here, would it?

    Yes, we all know that Spidey tends to be a loner but to emphasize that aspect would be forfeiting the main point of the Sony/Marvel collaboration.

    In comics, and in other outside media, there's been many examples of Spider-Man being more heavily integrated with other heroes, from Marvel Team-Up, to Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, to Spidey's stint as an active Avengers member. The MCU falls in line with that.

    And the Uncle Ben thing...some fans worry far, far too much about what other people know or don't know. All the hand-wringing about the lack of Uncle Ben in the MCU seems to focus on "but how are people supposed to know how important Uncle Ben is?!?"

    Gee, I don't know - because two hugely successful incarnations of Spidey on screen have already explained it? Because Wikipedia? Because of comics?

    This is not obscure, deep dive information that can only be known and understood unless every single Spider-Man movie beats the audience over the head with it every time out.

    Every Spider-Man comic doesn't have to remind readers about Uncle Ben. They can, and more often than not do, just tell Spider-Man stories that don't harp on his origin. I think that after five Spider-Man films, filmmakers earned the freedom to do the same.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    If you're going to have this unprecedented deal with two major studios working together and all you want to do is just reference events in the MCU films, why even bother? If you're going to do that little with it, it's not worth doing at all.

    Sony can make their own Spider-Man movies sans Marvel and do just fine. If they're going to team with Marvel, both parties want to get the most out of that deal. That means really leaning into the MCU connections. And no, Tony and Spidey don't have quite the same relationship in the comics but that's ok because THIS ISN'T THE COMICS. The MCU is its own alt universe and they're free to take things down some different avenues.
    But the thing is that the MCU ties could have been there without making Tony Stark too prevalent in Peter's life, with more of an influence on Peter's identity as a hero than he should arguably have. I mean, Tony not only was "supervising" Peter throughout almost the entirety of Homecoming but also provided Peter's suit and all of his technology (The MCU Spider-suit is essentially another set of Iron Man armor). And impressing Tony was the main motivator behind Peter's actions. Not to mention that Far From Home was mostly about Peter striving to carry on Tony's legacy as opposed to actually creating his own. The deep MCU ties could have simply been accomplished through Peter being offered a spot in the Avengers in Homecoming. That was all that was really needed.

    I mean, I still very much like those movies, but Stan Lee literally created Spider-Man as a rebuttal to the "kid sidekick" trope. He went on record saying that multiple times. By making Peter so dependent on Iron Man, they sort of did make him into Tony's kid sidekick, and while those are still good movies, it does sort of miss the mark on a fundamental aspect of Spider-Man mythology.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 03-31-2020 at 10:44 PM.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But the thing is that the MCU ties could have been there without making Tony Stark too prevalent in Peter's life, with more of an influence on Peter's identity as a hero than he should arguably have. I mean, Tony not only was "supervising" Peter throughout almost the entirety of Homecoming but also provided Peter's suit and all of his technology (The MCU Spider-suit is essentially another set of Iron Man armor). And impressing Tony was the main motivator behind Peter's actions. Not to mention that Far From Home was mostly about Peter striving to carry on Tony's legacy as opposed to actually creating his own. The deep MCU ties could have simply been accomplished through Peter being offered a spot in the Avengers in Homecoming. That was all that was really needed.

    I mean, I still very much like those movies, but Stan Lee literally created Spider-Man as a rebuttal to the "kid sidekick" trope. He went on record saying that multiple times. By making Peter so dependent on Iron Man, they sort of did make him into Tony's kid sidekick, and while those are still good movies, it does sort of miss the mark on a fundamental aspect of Spider-Man mythology.
    Peter is not Tony's sidekick in Homecoming. Not at all, not in any way. People who complain that he is depicted as such have misread the movie entirely. Peter is not dependent on Tony. That's one of the main points the movie is making. Peter is his own man and his own hero.

    And before we get another "but they could have done it like this instead!" suggestion from anybody about how to handle Spidey in the MCU that amounts to yet another variation on barely having Spidey interact at all with the larger MCU for the sake of keeping him independent, people should try to really understand the point of Sony and Marvel collaborating. They didn't do it so the Avengers could pop up in one scene to extend an invitation to Peter to join them. They did it to create a far more tangible bond. To limit the presence of the MCU Spider-Man films to the point where it's only there as little more than a token reference, would render the deal as absolutely pointless.

  14. #119
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    The current handling of MCU Spider-Man is already "yet another variation on barely having Spidey interact at all with the larger MCU" except it managed to not just do that, but also wreck the character. Peter hasn't said a single word to the likes of Thor, Hulk, Black Panther, etc. and has had no meaningful conversations or relationships with any superheroes not named Tony Stark. There literally is no defense for how badly Feige and co. handled integrating Peter into the MCU. It looks more like some Iron Man fanboy writing fanfiction where Marvel's greatest superhero becomes a sidekick to a B-lister, rather than any remotely well-thought out portrayal of the character.
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  15. #120
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    The current handling of MCU Spider-Man is already "yet another variation on barely having Spidey interact at all with the larger MCU" except it managed to not just do that, but also wreck the character. Peter hasn't said a single word to the likes of Thor, Hulk, Black Panther, etc. and has had no meaningful conversations or relationships with any superheroes not named Tony Stark. There literally is no defense for how badly Feige and co. handled integrating Peter into the MCU. It looks more like some Iron Man fanboy writing fanfiction where Marvel's greatest superhero becomes a sidekick to a B-lister, rather than any remotely well-thought out portrayal of the character.
    He at least got a brief moment with Dr. Strange in Infinity War, and Strange is one of those iconic Spidey team-ups. But not much else.

    Oh, Carol Danvers said hi to him, but I kind of doubt they're going to go anywhere with that.

    With the current Sony deal and Marvel Studios having the FF now, I wonder if we could finally see him meet Johnny, but I'm not sure what the dynamic would be. Assuming Johnny is in-character, MCU Peter is a little too placid to really play off Johnny like they normally do.

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